Plant fertilization advice

[Torrey]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:57 AM, Cbass said:

Apologies in advance for the long post.

How do you propose getting all the information and pictures in? Don't apologize, you include all the pertinent information so people can learn, and so Roy doesn't have to ask for parameters that were left out, lol.

Which phosphate test do you use? I'm learning a lot by reading the various journals on plants... and I still have a couple of tanks not doing great. I would prefer to be able to test and *know* what something is (baseline) rather than guesstimate if at all possible.

I agree, your tank really is improving, probably more than you recognize since you see it everyday.

[Cbass]

@TorreySorry for the late post. Using the API Phosphate test. And thanks for the comments!

So...I was out for a week and reluctantly had to leave the tank on it's own. Got back Saturday. I have an auto feeder that works pretty decent. Unfortunately, when I got back, it looks like the feeder dumped too much food each day. I knew the risk because they are never consistent. 

The good: No casualties. All the fish are accounted for and alive (so far). Before the water change (25% on Sunday) there was no ammonia or nitrate. Everyone seemed pretty happy.

The not too good: Had a pretty large brown and green algae bloom. The ARs started to melt and my Rotalia leaves are crinkled, but there's a bunch of new growth below (they are starting to fill in the empty space). Moss is browning in places. Also, my pH is up (even after the water change) to 7.6. Rest of the plants are ok. Likely need to keep at it....and never leave the house for vacation. Lol.

The "how did that happen" moment: Nerite(s) laid eggs and my female amano is carrying eggs again. Haha. 

Current water parameters
pH: 7.6 
Ammonia/Nitrite: 0
Nitrates: 5ppm
Gh/Kh: 7 and 3 respectively
Added 1/4 teaspoon to epsom (changed out 5 gals of water exactly).
AC fert dose this week so far: 4ml on Sunday. Recommended dose of Excel (2ml) after the water change. 

Normally, a higher than usual pH doesn't really bother me because it drops down to 6.8-7.0 after a day. But this is the highest the tank has ever been and I noticed before I left that the pH was floating between 7-7.2. I know you're not supposed to chase pH. But it's a little concerning. Thoughts? If I have to take action, I have almond leaves, RO/DI, and API pH down (though I hate using that stuff). Pics below. 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/4/2022 at 5:34 PM, Cbass said:

Yep. It's the API test and I shake that nitrate test tube as much as possible then wait 5 mins. The only time it got to 10ppm was during the dark cycle. My pump is the same. Dispenses 0.5ml to 0.7ml which is why I try to use a 1ml eye dropper to dose.

I should have N from the soil. But when the tank was done cycling it barely registered a 5. Since the plants were smaller (mostly tissue culture) they were happy, but of course they grew. 

Will try again tomorrow, remeasure and see what happens, but will take a pre-test of N before I dose so I have a base. 

Hi @Cbass,

I had trouble with the API Nitrate Test kit to the point I called API constantly getting readings.  Found out I was forgetting / missing the step 4 where I was supposed to shake Bottle #2 "vigorously for 30 seconds".  Once I started doing that the test kit worked fine.  -Roy

[Torrey]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:22 PM, Cbass said:

@TorreySorry for the late post. Using the API Phosphate test. And thanks for the comments!

So...I was out for a week and reluctantly had to leave the tank on it's own. Got back Saturday. I have an auto feeder that works pretty decent. Unfortunately, when I got back, it looks like the feeder dumped too much food each day. I knew the risk because they are never consistent. 

The good: No casualties. All the fish are accounted for and alive (so far). Before the water change (25% on Sunday) there was no ammonia or nitrate. Everyone seemed pretty happy.

The not too good: Had a pretty large brown and green algae bloom. The ARs started to melt and my Rotalia leaves are crinkled, but there's a bunch of new growth below (they are starting to fill in the empty space). Moss is browning in places. Also, my pH is up (even after the water change) to 7.6. Rest of the plants are ok. Likely need to keep at it....and never leave the house for vacation. Lol.

The "how did that happen" moment: Nerite(s) laid eggs and my female amano is carrying eggs again. Haha. 

Current water parameters
pH: 7.6 
Ammonia/Nitrite: 0
Nitrates: 5ppm
Gh/Kh: 7 and 3 respectively
Added 1/4 teaspoon to epsom (changed out 5 gals of water exactly).
AC fert dose this week so far: 4ml on Sunday. Recommended dose of Excel (2ml) after the water change. 

Normally, a higher than usual pH doesn't really bother me because it drops down to 6.8-7.0 after a day. But this is the highest the tank has ever been and I noticed before I left that the pH was floating between 7-7.2. I know you're not supposed to chase pH. But it's a little concerning. Thoughts? If I have to take action, I have almond leaves, RO/DI, and API pH down (though I hate using that stuff). Pics below. 

 

@Cbass, for being gone for a week your tank looks great! I see new plant growth, and obviously the shrimp are happy with the changes to be so beautifully berried.

I would test my tap water, and see if pH of the tap has gone up?

I'm trying to remember which substrate you used? Active substrates tend to need to be replaced, and if the substrate was buffering your pH you may be seeing the end of the substrate's buffering ability.

Since my tanks range from 8.4 down to 6.8 pH (and it takes a literal ton of botanicals, and minimal water changes + a lot of work to balance the tank to get below 7.8 pH) I have found Seattle_Aquarist information on dosing epsom salts and the correct iron supplement for absorption at higher pH to be the most helpful to my plant journey.

I don't have all the science or graphs that Seattle_Aquarist & Mmiller share, but this printout helped identify why I still have to use SeaChem in my high pH tanks.

As for the algae, I would leave some for the shrimp and nerites to supplement their diet. I learned from my sister (the Forestry Department grad) to pick an aquarium wall or a rock, and encourage algae to grow there, to help provide a good home not just for the algae, but also for all the microorganisms that are part of a healthy tank to live, and to assist with filtering.

[Cbass]

@Seattle_Aquaristyou mean shake the tester bottle for 30 sec? Oh wow. Then I’ve been missing it too!

 

@Torreythats great to know. One of the reasons why I came here is because I was finding all of the “don’t do this” or “it needs to be at this level” info online that it really started ti confuse me. Just wanted to hear real world experiences. 
 

As for the soil, it’s ADA Amazonia 2. I’m surprised if it’s at the end of its life because it’s only been in the tank for about 3 months. Thought the shelf life was more or less around a few years, but obviously it would depend on how heavily planted. And yes. I typically leave the algae on all the hard scape and the back glass, especially on the lower parts of the glass since the Otos have been pretty shy. 

[Torrey]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:12 PM, Cbass said:

you mean shake the tester bottle for 30 sec?

A lot of people miss that, I should have verified that with you a while back. My apologies. If you read the little booklet of directions, it includes to "vigorously shake test bottle number 2 for at least 30 seconds". I typically ask my spouse to start shaking it when I start adding reagents to the test tubes, and am confident it is well shaken (but not stirred) by the time I need to add Nitrate Reagent #2 to the test tubes. Part of why I like the test srtips so much!

 

On 4/25/2022 at 9:12 PM, Cbass said:

I’m surprised if it’s at the end of its life because it’s only been in the tank for about 3 months. Thought the shelf life was more or less around a few years, but obviously it would depend on how heavily planted. And yes. I typically leave the algae on all the hard scape and the back glass, especially on the lower parts of the glass since the Otos have been pretty shy. 

Lifespan for the buffer is also influenced by the tap water parameters. Just because it no longer buffers (and that would be more of Roy's wheelhouse) doesn't mean it *has* to be replaced. Unless you have fish in there that can't tolerate neutral pH, it shouldn't be a problem. Plants will adjust, and so will most fish.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:12 PM, Cbass said:

@Seattle_Aquaristyou mean shake the tester bottle for 30 sec? Oh wow. Then I’ve been missing it too!

lol, glad to know I am not alone!  Imagine how I felt on that call with API....................

[Cbass]

Good lord. I've been totally wrong this entire time. My nitrate levels are actually through the roof. I'm pushing 160ppm. SMH. 

My otos aren't going to like that. Going to do an emergency water change. 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Cbass

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Cbass

I was looking at your last pictures and I wasn't seeing the improvement that I had expected to see, the new leaves were not greening as expected if Mg had been the issue.  You will likely need to do 2 - 4 50% water changes (24 - 48 hours apart) to get the nitrate ppm down to a more 'normal' level.  I think you are the first I have seen where excess nitrogen has been the issue. The effect of excess nitrogen is not even mentioned in Mulder's Charts.  Keep letting us know how things go.  -Roy

Quote

Plants tend to be able to tolerate higher amounts of (NO3-) or nitrate than NH4+ (ammonium). However, it can still reach toxic levels. Its main effect is to cause iron deficiency in plant leaves. The leaf will turn yellow while the veins remain green.

 

[Cbass]

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist. That makes sense. Finished the 1st water change. My tap has 5ppm nitrate, so I'm guessing that it will likely take 3 to 4 depending unless I use RO water, which would be like pouring money down the drain. Will let you know how things go in a week. For the time being, will hold off on any fertilization until things stabilize. 

 

[Torrey]

On 4/26/2022 at 9:53 AM, Cbass said:

Good lord. I've been totally wrong this entire time. My nitrate levels are actually through the roof. I'm pushing 160ppm. SMH. 

My otos aren't going to like that. Going to do an emergency water change. 

 

 

@Cbass it has happened to many people, you are not alone.

My turtle pond can spike nitrate through the roof if Karma goes on a plant/salad binge and eats all the plants... generally happens a few times every summer, and if we get a warm day in the winter. If I keep sufficient plants, nitrates stay below 40 ppm and none of the creatures mind.

If Karma goes on a binge, and I don't have more plants ready and waiting to go in, nitrates from an exceptionally well functioning filter system (UGF plus modified Tetra Reptifilter) will jump up over 300 ppm in under 48 hours😢. Box turtles aren't supposed to like to swim, but Karma didn't get that memo... and she prefers to poop in the pond.👀

So after eating all the nitrate reduction, the laxative action of high fiber returns all the nitrates she just ate in the plants. Since Ornate ornatas are very sensitive to the salts used in dechlorinators, just doing a bunch of water changes isn't an option... which is why I now have 12 other tanks growing plants!

[Torrey]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:07 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

lol, glad to know I am not alone!  Imagine how I felt on that call with API....................

@Seattle_Aquarist I can only imagine. I just realized my chem and o-chem labs are probably responsible for my liquid test success skills....

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/27/2022 at 8:07 PM, Torrey said:

@Seattle_Aquarist I can only imagine. I just realized my chem and o-chem labs are probably responsible for my liquid test success skills....

@Torrey, I have no excuse....I was a chem major until I changed majors and went for business administration.

[Cbass]

I hated chem. My sister is the super chem-god. She loves to balance equations in her head. Probably why she loves her job in forensics. I'm more of a physics guy, but only because I love auto racing. 

@Torreywow! That's pretty crazy. Reminds me of my betta. She likes to poop in 1 corner of her tank and of course, it's the hardest corner to get to when cleaning it out. Go figure. 

So after 2 water changes, the nitrates are down to 40pp. I figure 1-2 more should do the trick and I can start over. @Seattle_Aquarist once everything is said and done, should I continue with the epsom doses and see what happens after a month? I need to get another Nitrate test kit since I'm running low on solution and was also going to get one for iron to test the baseline in my tap. 

ALSO. I have a new addition to my tank. This morning I found this little fry. My amano was berried when I first got her, but we couldn't figure out where she dropped the eggs off, not to mention I thought amanos won't hatch unless the water is brackish? Either way, I'm going to have to be super careful when I change the water and may need to cover my filter inlet.
 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Cbass

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:10 AM, Cbass said:

So after 2 water changes, the nitrates are down to 40pp. I figure 1-2 more should do the trick and I can start over. @Seattle_Aquarist once everything is said and done, should I continue with the epsom doses and see what happens after a month? I need to get another Nitrate test kit since I'm running low on solution and was also going to get one for iron to test the baseline in my tap.

Hi @Cbass

Once you get back to 20-30 ppm of nitrates I suggest just doing regular dosing without Epsom Salt for at least two weeks and see how the new leaves that emerge look.  If they look good then maybe two more weeks with just regular dosing.  Keep us posted! -Roy

Edited April 28, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Torrey]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:10 AM, Cbass said:

I hated chem. My sister is the super chem-god. She loves to balance equations in her head. Probably why she loves her job in forensics. I'm more of a physics guy, but only because I love auto racing. 

@Torreywow! That's pretty crazy. Reminds me of my betta. She likes to poop in 1 corner of her tank and of course, it's the hardest corner to get to when cleaning it out. Go figure. 

So after 2 water changes, the nitrates are down to 40pp. I figure 1-2 more should do the trick and I can start over. @Seattle_Aquarist once everything is said and done, should I continue with the epsom doses and see what happens after a month? I need to get another Nitrate test kit since I'm running low on solution and was also going to get one for iron to test the baseline in my tap. 

ALSO. I have a new addition to my tank. This morning I found this little fry. My amano was berried when I first got her, but we couldn't figure out where she dropped the eggs off, not to mention I thought amanos won't hatch unless the water is brackish? Either way, I'm going to have to be super careful when I change the water and may need to cover my filter inlet.
 

 

Are you positive you have an amano?

I have frequently found shrimp labeled incorrectly, although with the ability of pet stores to use the internet to confirm identity of species, I am seeing it far less now than a decade or more ago.

https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Palaemonetes_paludosus/ 

[Torrey]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:32 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

@Torrey, I have no excuse....I was a chem major until I changed majors and went for business administration.

We can blame it on the **tiny** print, lol.

I have wanted to rewrite the API manual for decades for accessibility reasons. Until I joined some fish forums I didn't realize how common of a mistake this is. When I see a consistent error in communication (directions given regularly not being registered as intended by the recipient) that tells me it's not my autism that meant I disliked the directions, it's a failure for directions to be written in a manner that makes sense to a lot of different brains.

I don't follow the booklet, I should type my directions into a Google doc for folx in here. In between more accessible font, and putting important information like shake this reagent until your arm hurts, then shake some more in bold makes a huge difference. (That was copied from my chem notebook.... decades ago)

[Cbass]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:32 PM, Torrey said:

Are you positive you have an amano?

I have frequently found shrimp labeled incorrectly, although with the ability of pet stores to use the internet to confirm identity of species, I am seeing it far less now than a decade or more ago.

https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Palaemonetes_paludosus/ 

Apparently it’s not an Amano. I checked with my local store today. It’s a ghost, which can morph in regular freshwater. Ironically the store that told me this is the same store that sold me them. The tank was labeled incorrectly and it was my very first time having shrimp. So I didn’t really bother to check that Amanos have a completely different body shape. Live and learn. 
 

Was a little disappointed because it killed my miraculous discovery, but was still surprised. Since my female is berried again I covered the filter inlet with coarse foam to prevent any future fry from getting sucked in. Since I wasn’t really thinking I would have any fry, I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch got sucked out with my latest water changes.

Personally I think it’s a great idea to write a “this is what you should really do” instruction book that takes into account accessibility. I took typography and I can tell you that the combination of the instructions being on a skinny column with the font they use is irritating. I thought it was just me.  

Edited April 29, 2022 by Cbass

[Cbass]

Quick status update. Will post pics tomorrow but here’s where I’m at. 

All plants seeing new leaves. ARs started growing again but the new leaves on the minis are a little pale (some with dark veins). Rotalas are growing taller and I pruned one stalk earlier last week to test how well it was doing. New growth within in 2 days. Need to trim the rest as they’ve started to get tall. Lagenandras stopped melting and are growing back. Crypt is still pale but is still sprouting some new leaves. I have a feeling lighting is part of the problem. Saving that for another time. 
 

Nitrates are between 20-30 with ph between 7.4 to 7.6. Gh and Kh are 8 and 5 respectively. No ammonia or nitrites. Phosphates are still nearly zero. Dosing 1ml (2 pumps) of AC ez green 2 times a week (medium light tank dosage).  No other supplements yet. 
 

My otos survived the nitrate spike and are coming out a little more often. Bought 3 more and they seem to be more comfortable. Still have plenty of algae but I don’t mind. Hard to not buy 6 more otos. They’re fun to watch. 
 

More to come after I finish adulting. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:52 PM, Cbass said:

Quick status update. Will post pics tomorrow but here’s where I’m at. 

All plants seeing new leaves. ARs started growing again but the new leaves on the minis are a little pale (some with dark veins). Rotalas are growing taller and I pruned one stalk earlier last week to test how well it was doing. New growth within in 2 days. Need to trim the rest as they’ve started to get tall. Lagenandras stopped melting and are growing back. Crypt is still pale but is still sprouting some new leaves. I have a feeling lighting is part of the problem. Saving that for another time. 
 

Nitrates are between 20-30 with ph between 7.4 to 7.6. Gh and Kh are 8 and 5 respectively. No ammonia or nitrites. Phosphates are still nearly zero. Dosing 1ml (2 pumps) of AC ez green 2 times a week (medium light tank dosage).  No other supplements yet. 
 

My otos survived the nitrate spike and are coming out a little more often. Bought 3 more and they seem to be more comfortable. Still have plenty of algae but I don’t mind. Hard to not buy 6 more otos. They’re fun to watch. 
 

More to come after I finish adulting. 

Hi @Cbass,

Glad to hear you are seeing improvement, it sounds encouraging.  We may have to deal with magnesium or iron in the upcoming weeks but let's just continue what you have been doing for a couple of more weeks and then re-evaluate based upon the new growth.  Continue to monitor your nitrates and do water changes as needed.  -Roy

[Cbass]

Progress pics as promised. Ignore the bright new AR. It’s extra from a TC since I had to redo my betta nano tank. Here’s the full rundown of the water as of today. 
 

pH: 7.6
Nitrite/Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 30ish ppm
Gh/Kh: 4 and 3 respectively 
Phosphates: 0
TDM: 174 (forgot that I had a meter)

Also. Happy Mother’s Day to all the moms and single parents!

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:41 AM, Cbass said:

Progress pics as promised. Ignore the bright new AR. It’s extra from a TC since I had to redo my betta nano tank. Here’s the full rundown of the water as of today. 
 

pH: 7.6
Nitrite/Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 30ish ppm
Gh/Kh: 4 and 3 respectively 
Phosphates: 0
TDM: 174 (forgot that I had a meter)

Also. Happy Mother’s Day to all the moms and single parents!

Hi @Cbass

The newest leaves are looking better, I am seeing several plants with new leaves, what is your impression? -Roy

[Cbass]

@Seattle_Aquaristthe new growth looks good, but I would think give it one more week to see more of the development. The ARs start well but as the leaves mature they start to crinkle. But that was during the time I had the huge nitrate levels. 
 

Leaves on the AR mini have shown a good amount of improvement as far as leaf structure. 
 

the Crypt is growing well. The one thing I notice is that the leaves are becoming more upright, where in the past they were laying a little flatter. 
 

I think after one more week we’ll be able to see how everything looks and get a better idea. But all in all things appear to be settling in nice. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Cbass

[Cbass]

Posting pics. So far so good. The mini ARs are doing well as far as the leaves and growth. The ARs have some crinkling once newer growth starts to fully develop but it’s growing. The newer ARs are doing well but it’s a little early since they’re only a week old. Rotalia has some paling of the tips on older growth but the new ones are doing ok. Weeping moss is all over the place. Going to have to trim.
 

Current water parameters:

pH: 7.6
No ammonia or nitrites 
Nitrates: 20-25 ppm
Gh/Kh: 4 and 2 respectively. Was kinda surprised here. 
 

Last water change was Wed and my nitrate and Gh/Kh levels were much higher. So I’d like to think the plants are taking in as much as they can.

In other news the momma shrimp dropped her eggs earlier this week. Literally the day after she was berried again. Sheesh.

[Cbass]

Figured I would post an update. I really should have started a journal. 

After completely misreading and messing up my nitrate tests from day 1, I completely started over. Instead of doing magnesium or iron or playing with my fert dosage, I did nothing for almost a month aside from water changes and dosing 1ml of easy green a week. After reading posts here and watching more vids, I stopped caring so much about water parameters. Meaning, I stopped stressing over pH getting above 7.6 (except for that one random huge spike I had), stopped testing for ammonia every damn day, and stopped worrying about my KH not at being at the "ideal" level that we always read/hear about. I thank the AC vids and people here. I almost tried crushed coral. Glad I didn't. Because Corey's old vid on pH pretty much blew my mind. 

What happened was pretty enlightening. 1st, my nitrates dropped to 5 ppm. Nothing really happened in the tank aside from the moss suffering. ARs looked the same and the new ARs that I had extra of from my other tank got wiped out. But the algae started to slow down. The left side of my tank (which gets hit with a lot of ambient sunlight) started to clear up. My water changes are once every 2 weeks because my nitrates never get above 20-25ppm. 

When Nitrates hit around 10ppm, the plants started to grow (minus the AR). So I changed my lighting profile and added a longer siesta period (almost 4 hours) and increased the pure white light/max light levels to about 80 percent and did a "peak" style program versus a long plateau. Plants grew faster and my monte carlo is crawling further to the right. My red root floaters exploded. I've had to toss a good amount because it was blocking too much light out as well as the moss because the anubias were practically in the dark. My crypt is putting out pink leaves. 

Today, nitrates are at 20ppm because I dosed a little heavier over the weekend (2ml). The algae started to grow a tad faster, but the plants still show new growth (minus the ARs). My rotalia is all the way at the top of the waterline now. Had to trim and still need to.

It's a water change week for me, so it'll probably bring the nitrates down to 10-15ppm. I was thinking of starting to dose Seachem Trace mid week, but will wait a little bit to see how things go. 

And after all this I learned: ARs are damn hard to grow for me and I'm not ready yet and neither is my tank. And I'm ok with that!