Neocaridina Problems

[Martin]

Hey gang,

I want to seek guidance regarding some neocaridina issues I simply cannot figure out.  Roughly 3-4 months ago, I set up 3 separate 20 gallon tanks to breed neocaridina (red, orange, blue, each in their own tank).  All three tanks were set up the EXACT same way with same gravel, same plants, same tech, all side-by-side in the same room.  For whatever reason, the reds and blues are fine, but the orange shrimp are slowly dying off at a rate of roughly 1-2 a week and I have no leads on the cause of death.  Additionally, I don't see ANY of the shrimp (red, orange, or blue) carrying eggs, which is odd given the number of females in the tanks.

Parameters:

pH:  8.6
GH:  50-100ppm (I know, more on this below)
KH:  50-100ppm
NH4/NO2/NO3:  0

In the tank:

Guppy grass, moss balls, almond leaves, gravel.

History:

I originally started off with just red and orange shrimp, each in their own 10 gallon tank (roughly 8 months ago).  The start was rough as a number from each population died off daily in the two weeks following their introduction.  The water from my area is very hard with TDS levels of roughly 480-500.  In efforts to improve water quality, I opted to start using a mixture of 50/50% RO and tap water for the tanks.  Both populations improved after the change.  Despite the relatively low GH of the new water, the shrimp were reproducing and were molting without any white ring issues.  I didn't question it.  It wasn't broke, so I didn't fix it.  Several months in, my orange shrimp population started to look more sparse than before, though I did not see any bodies or clear signs of disease.  By that time, I had already decided to upgrade the tanks and also start breeding blues as well, so the new 20g tanks were already up and cycling/seasoning.  When time came to move them over, I discovered ~4x damselfly larvae in the tank.  I assumed this was the issue as the reds were doing just fine.  "Okay, that sucks, but I'm moving them anyway," was my mentality.  I fished out the reds and oranges and moved them to their respective tanks.  Apart from the shrimp, the moss balls are the only things that came over from the previous tanks. 

At this point, I have no clue what is causing the orange shrimp to die off, nor do I have a clue why the shrimp are not breeding.  The 20g tanks have much better visibility due to less hardscape, and I see no damselfly larvae.  I recognize the GH is lower than recommended, but would this be the cause of death in only one tank and not the other two?  I can only assume no.  Does GH affect fertility/breeding habits?  I only know of GHs role in the molting process, so I could just be naive on this point.  The only thing (I think) left to consider are potential disease processes that afflicted the orange tank that carried over into the new tank, though all of the shrimp look healthy and active.  I check on them multiple times a day and they do not give me the appearance of illness nor any reduced activity.  I only know something is wrong when I come home to a dead shrimp.  

I did purchase a jar of Salty Shrimp GH/KH mixture to help correct GH/KH if that is the issue, but I haven't used it yet in fear that I go creating instability because of panic.  Your thoughts are very much appreciated.

Martin

[DallasCowboys16]

Honestly the PH is high enough that it could be the cause of your issues. Cherries seem to prefer anything between 6.5-8. This would explain why your shrimp began to perk up after you started cutting your water with RO.

The GH is a little low, but that generally would really only bring on issues with molting. Bringing up it that would be ideal. Your KH is at a fine level already. You would generally be seeing the typical white ring if this were an acute problem.

I would recommend cutting your water at water changed with 50% remineralized RO water. The Salty Shrimp Gh/KH+ is a great option for reconstituting the RO.

[Sacah]

I agree on the PH, also I recall reading for breeding they needs enough food and a well balanced diet, what are ou feeding and how often?

[TheBlueBeetle]

Echoing the PH concern. Maybe add some botanicals (if you don't already) l to help drop the ph a bit and give them more food sources as well I had slow die offs for quite a while until I started adding cattapa leaves regularly. Prior to the botanicals, my hatch survival rate was abysmal as well. I Feed Extreme Shrimpy pellets and supplement every couple of weeks with Zoo Med nano banquet blocks to really boost the calcium. Good luck and keep us posted.

Edited August 28 by TheBlueBeetle

[Martin]

Thanks very much for the input everyone.  

@DallasCowboys16 Thanks for the advice regarding the parameters.  Admittedly, I still consider myself a novice in the hobby and parameters always trip me up.  When I cut my water 50/50 the pH is usually right at about 7.6, however I find that it always creeps up into the 8's over time.  I had forgotten to mention, I had followed advice to minimize water changes in efforts to maintain stability of the tank.  For the most part, I really only top off the tank when the water evaporates, which I assume is what leads to the pH creep?  Additionally, wouldn't trying to correct for GH also raise pH further?  Alternatively, I could try to start with 100% RO and remineralize with the SaltyShrimp mixture and give that a try.  Any insight is much appreciated.  

@Sacah Thank you for asking, I feed the shrimp a varied diet from several sources including ACO Shrimp/Fry food, algae wafers, and another shrimp-specific wafer that is made up of protein and calcium (I can't remember the name and I'm not at home ATM).  I feed them one of these sources in a rotating fashion about every other to every 3 days.  This is in addition to any of the algae/biofilm that grows on the guppy grass.

@TheBlueBeetle Thanks very much for sharing your experiences, sometimes it just nice to know that others have had the same issues.  As far as botanicals are concerned, I have roughly a dozen Indian almond leaves in each tank (the small ones... ~1.5-2 inches long), though honestly, I never really knew how many I should be putting in).  In addition, each tank has about 6 moss balls, and there is a healthy amount of guppy grass in each tank (floating and occupies roughly the top 4-5 inches of tank across the entire surface).

The one thing I'm just really hung up on is why the orange ones are the only ones dying.  The tank bottom mostly open, so it's hard to miss a dead body, so I don't think I'm missing anything when looking at the reds and blues.

Thank you guys so very much for taking the time to help.

Martin

[Sacah]

Lots of plants in the tank, or certain substrates will gradually raise your pH, so regular water changes will be your way to keep that down and remineralise. You might also look at something like peat moss in your filter to help, I haven't used it myself, but heard plenty of people who found it worked well.

Also, given they are already struggling, I would try not to change pH, GH or KH too much all at once, as it's been known to stress shrimp. So maybe 10% bi-weekly to get your pH in check, I think if you can get to low 7s, then wait a week and see how much it climbs you'll have a better idea on the RO mix you need each weekly change to keep it below 8.

Why the Orange's are struggling more, it's hard to tell, they might just have more sensitive genetics, so you just need to be abit more careful with them.

[Dacotua]

In my personal experience, whenever I added leaf litter to my tank (almond leaves), the shrimp population decreased. If I removed all the leaves, the populations not only rebounded but exploded. I currently have two tanks, one tank has visible tannin's (Lots of driftwood, low light plants and almond leaves). In that tank, the shrimp seem to just die off quickly. In another tank, I have a lots of driftwood, but no almond leaves, lots plants and the shrimp population has absolutely exploded and thriving. Both tanks use the same water source, both tanks have live plants (Planted and floating).

Just saying in my experience, If I add enough almond leaves to tint the water, the shrimp die off. If I don't add any leaves at all, my shrimp population has a massive explosive growth.

[Martin]

Thanks guys,

@Sacah  I'll have to take is slow, just like you said.  I always get so tempted to correct problems quickly and I always have to control that urge.  I had the same consideration regarding the genetics behind the orange shrimp as well, no way to know for sure at this point just yet, but I thought of that too.

@Dacotua That's so strange regarding the leaf litter, I'm wondering if there is any other confounding factor involved.  I haven't had any problems to that degree, just this one tank out of the three.