KH/GH/pH Issues please help, fish shipment arrived today - thanks!

[Seqkat]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:42 AM, face said:

Have you ever done an off gas test on your water? It’s common for it to change after it’s out of the pipes for example my tap water is 8 ph my tank water is 6.5 my city increases the ph so it doesn’t eat our pipes but it goes back after a few hours if you haven’t just put some water in a cup and let it sit for a couple days give it a stir every once in a while and then test it for ph 

as for the nitrite how much do you have out of your tape exactly?

I haven't done the test you're recommending. I will try that. And the Tetra strip read 3.0 on the tap water, when I put tap water in the bucket and waited almost two hours with the Seachem Alkaline buffer. That was the result I got.

[Tony s]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:30 PM, Seqkat said:

And the Tetra strip read 3.0 on the tap water

for city water that sounds incredibly high. i wonder what the legal limits are?

So... How are the little friends this morning? you must be very excited!

[Seqkat]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:12 PM, CMcDermott said:

Just add baking soda to your tank until the pH is where you want it, less than 8 will cause the pH to keep swinging up and down as the acids generated in the tank use up the carbonate. General Hardness is how much calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) is in your tank, KH is how much carbonate (CO3) is in your tank, so to increase the carbonate without increasing the calcium and magnesium add baking soda, which is sodium bicarbonate (Na2CO3). How much - depends on your tank's pH and what else in in your tank water so add a teaspoon of baking soda every day until the pH is above 8 or a little more (very high levels of dissolved sodium bicarbonate can push the pH to 8.8). Adding the baking soda slowly over time prevents giving your fish a pH shock. You will also need to add the baking soda to your change water to raise the pH to the same as your tank to prevent stressing the fish etc. with pH swings and to restore the carbonate that was used up by the acids generated in the tank. After the tank pH is stabilized you will quickly learn just how much to add each time you change the water, yes it's a pain to have to mix your change water but also lets you add chlorine remover before the chlorine gets in the tank, and isn't that big of a problem for a 10 gallon tank, just use a 5 gallon bucket to pre-mix the water. Baking soda is cheaper than the various blends being sold expressly for aquariums - which are often just pre-dissolved baking soda in water. Putting calcium carbonate in the tank in it's various forms like limestone, dolomite, aragonite etc. will raise both the GH and KH, and while it works well in tanks with lower GH by continuing to slowly dissolve releasing new carbonate as the already dissolved carbonate is used up by combining with the organic acids being generated in the tank, it also can be limited in adding KH (carbonate hardness) by the high GH as only so much calcium can dissolve in the water. Using sodium bicarbonate gets around this problem of raising the GH when added, but it isn't as simple as just putting some limestone in the tank to dissolve.

Thank you. I did treat the water in a bucket with the Seachem Alkaline buffer before adding it to the tank, adjusting the amount to match the volume in the bucket. It worked perfectly. So, I feel comfortable with doing that. And I'm aware the other items will raise the GH, which isn't needed of course with it being so high. I appreciate your explaining in detail how the GH is interplaying with the KH, and how the sodium bicarbonate works around that. I appreciate understanding that in greater detail, thank you!

I really don't want my pH to be at 8 because the cories do better with a lower pH, I just had to lock the KH so the pH wouldn't fluctuate, dangerously. It looks like based on the color of the Tetra strip it's holding in between 7.2 and 7.8. The color is a consistent red, but that hue is not on their chart. That hue is landing between the 7.2 and 7.8 colors that are denoted. So, I'm just going for consistency to keep a stable pH.

[Seqkat]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:39 PM, Tony s said:

for city water that sounds incredibly high. i wonder what the legal limits are?

So... How are the little friends this morning? you must be very excited!

Yeah, I know. I was telling my daughter who lives with me. We're going to have to look into this. I was researching last night, and they're recommending RO water, if our tap has nitrites.

And the little cory cats are doing great, thank you! They're so cute. They are active, and doing their little bottom feedings, and checking out the plants. 🙂 

I tested the water today, KH & pH are holding perfectly. Nitrites are still in the stress zone but lower than they were last night! I can treat with Aqua Essential at 24 hours, so that's my plan.

[Tony s]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:12 PM, CMcDermott said:

so add a teaspoon of baking soda every day until the pH is above 8 or a little more (very high levels of dissolved sodium bicarbonate can push the pH to 8.8)

yeah, one of the reason I prefer the Seachem product to this. If you use both the acid buffer and the alkaline buffer, you can raise your kh while targeting a specific ph. just using one side of the buffer causes your ph to raise. in chemistry that's not really a buffered solution. 

[CMcDermott]

On 6/15/2024 at 5:55 PM, Tony s said:

yeah, one of the reason I prefer the Seachem product to this. If you use both the acid buffer and the alkaline buffer, you can raise your kh while targeting a specific ph. just using one side of the buffer causes your ph to raise. in chemistry that's not really a buffered solution. 

Yes, this is a total buffer solution as the complementary acid for the Carbonate buffering system is Carbonic acid, H2CO3. This is formed automatically in the water when CO2 from the air dissolves in the water, and when CO2 from the fish, shrimp etc. is expressed into the water. Adding a Carbonate salt, whether Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate will automatically balance with the Carbonic acid that is in all aquarium water to form a buffered system. You can vary the pH level a little by which Carbonate salt you use, Calcium Carbonate produces a pH of 8.4, once this is reached in the water putting in more Calcium Carbonate won't raise the pH of the water any further. Sodium Bicarbonate will produce a pH of 8.8 before adding more doesn't change the pH. Having the complementary acid always present in the system is why so many don't realize that it takes both the acid of the anion and a salt of the anion to form a buffering system, because they just add a salt of the carbonate anion in the form of limestone without needing to add the complementary acid to "buffer" their water.

Other anions can form buffering systems at different PH levels, the products promising to buffer your water at a pH of 7 use the phosphate anion (phosphoric acid and usually ammonium phosphate as it dissolves easily), which has the problem of causing algae blooms by unbalancing the plant to light to fertilizers levels. Using the Citrate anion (citric acid and trisodium citrate) will buffer water to a pH of 6, but causes problems in aquariums as the Citrate anion is part of the Krebs cycle which all organisms that use oxygen to produce energy in the form of ATP molecules; like fish, shrimp, snails, the nitrogen cycle bacteria etc. use to live. Living in water with lots of citrate anions in it doing the pH buffering messes up the Krebs cycle in the organisms cells and causes things to die. Small fish, shrimp and snails can survive for days to weeks, large fish for months, being large organisms with some capability of storing ATP to use later, but single cell bacteria doesn't and dies quickly stopping the nitrogen cycle that depends on them.

[Tony s]

On 6/15/2024 at 8:53 PM, CMcDermott said:

different PH levels, the products promising to buffer your water at a pH of 7 use the phosphate anion (phosphoric acid and usually ammonium phosphate as it dissolves easily), which has the problem of causing algae blooms by unbalancing the plant to light to fertilizers levels

Okay. Thanks for the explanation. I’ve done the whole 600level chemistry thing before. But, my goodness, that was 35 years ago.🤣🤣 I’m a bit rusty. Took me a moment to decipher most of that🤣 The problem she’s having is raising the kh to stabilize ph. All for Pygmy Corydoras, which don’t like a high ph at all. They would prefer a ph 6-7. They probably can survive higher, but maybe more difficult if they were wild caught. Adding the baking soda has the side affect of raising the ph beyond the comfort level of pygmies. And pygmies can be a bit sensitive compared to other corys. 
 Suggestions to keep a moderate ph while raising kh would be greatly appreciated. Especially if they’re as cheap as baking soda. 🤣

[Seqkat]

On 6/15/2024 at 8:53 PM, CMcDermott said:

Adding a Carbonate salt,

I have a planted tank, and I've found in research plants aren't fond of salt. Seachem has an Equilibrium, where it will place your pH right at 7, but they suggest not using it for planted tanks. I don't know if that has salt in it or not?

On 6/15/2024 at 9:16 PM, Tony s said:

The problem she’s having is raising the kh to stabilize ph. All for Pygmy Corydoras, which don’t like a high ph at all. They would prefer a ph 6-7. They probably can survive higher, but maybe more difficult if they were wild caught. Adding the baking soda has the side affect of raising the ph beyond the comfort level of pygmies. And pygmies can be a bit sensitive compared to other corys. 
 

Yeah, I was excited at first when I saw my pH was staying at 6.8 because I knew the Pygmy Cories would love that, and was crushed to see the pH plummet with the water change because of the low KH. Fortunately these that I have are tank bred, and not wild caught, so stable pH at this point is my game play.

[Tony s]

On 6/15/2024 at 9:34 PM, Seqkat said:

Seachem has an Equilibrium, where it will place your pH right at 7, but they suggest not using it for planted tanks

Equilibrium is for planted tanks. Adjusts your gh only. That’s what I use to remineralize my ro. They have another line of products called regulators. Acid, alkaline and neutral regulator. Neutral regulator is the one that adjusts ph to neutral. Those all have salt in them and are not recommended for planted tanks. Equilibrium, acid buffer and alkaline buffer have little salt in them and are designed for planted tanks. I use all of these. They do a good job for the most part. But there may be better options. Always willing to learn new things.😀

Takes a bit of getting used to when starting adjusting. I have a whole bottle of neutral regulator. Then figured out it’s the wrong one🤣

[Tony s]

@Seqkat if you go to Seachem’s site they have listed the plant safe product’s under the plant drop down.

[Seqkat]

On 6/15/2024 at 9:43 PM, Tony s said:

Equilibrium is for planted tanks. Adjusts your gh only. That’s what I use to remineralize my ro. They have another line of products called regulators. Acid, alkaline and neutral regulator. Neutral regulator is the one that adjusts ph to neutral. Those all have salt in them and are not recommended for planted tanks. Equilibrium, acid buffer and alkaline buffer have little salt in them and are designed for planted tanks. I use all of these. They do a good job for the most part. But there may be better options. Always willing to learn new things.😀

Takes a bit of getting used to when starting adjusting. I have a whole bottle of neutral regulator. Then figured out it’s the wrong one🤣

Had company over today, so late getting on here! Thank you, so much Tony! I had read about the regulator and mixed that up somehow with the Equilibrium apparently! I appreciate you getting me straight on that. I did read their site on their Equilibrium and they did say (it's a little confusing, honestly, lol)  that Equilibrium raises the essential mineral/electrolyte content General Hardness (which may not be good for me since my GH is so high already) of the water to balance with and promote stability of the carbonate hardness. To maintain KH, we recommend the Alkaline Buffer.  So, I think for now, I'll stick with what I'm doing so I don't go and really change the pH on the fishes. But, if we have to get an RO filter for our own safety with our water, you've just given me a good plan on what to do to remineralize everything! I really appreciate that! Thank you! 🙂