Getting GBR/Gourami to get along

[orangeisnon]

Hi all, 

New fish person (about a month in) with a little bit of a problem. One of my first fish - a male German Blue Ram - and my newest addition - a male Neon Blue Dwarf Gourami - are not getting along. Here's a basic timeline: 

I had the Ram for about 3 weeks, and up until now he has been the king of the castle. Any time I add new fish, he nips them a few times and then leaves them alone. But those fish spend most of their time hiding. I thought this was normal at the time, given the other species I have. The Ram was always front and center, and even when my cat came up and swatted at the tank, he wasn't concerned. He would also nip at my fingers when I was feeding/replanting/etc.

A few days ago I added the Gourami. I drip acclimated him for almost 2 hours, then transferred him to the tank. For the first full day he was skittish and the Ram was constantly chasing and nipping at him. I was worried he might not make it given all of the stress, but decided to give it a day.

Next day, everything was flipped. The Gourami is now always out in the open, while the Ram is almost always hiding, behind the bonsai, on the substrate. When the Gourami gets near him, he (Gourami) turns to the side then usually nips at the Ram a bunch of times. The Ram doesn't seem to be fighting back. The Ram won't come out to eat with the Gourami in the tank.

I've tried time outs, I rearranged the tank with the Ram in and Gourami out, I've fed with the Gourami out, I've tried feeding in separate areas, I rearranged the plants to be concentrated on opposite corners. I'm running out of ideas. When I take the Gourami out, the Ram perks back up within a few minutes. This sounds like a win, except EVERYTHING else in the tank hides when the Gourami is gone. When he's in, the loaches and catfish are soooooo much more active. I REALLY like the Ram, far better than the Gourami, but I also don't want to get rid of the Gourami and have a tank full of hiding, dull colored fish and one centerpiece. Plus, I don't have anyone willing to take the Gourami off my hands, and I'm not ready for another tank yet.

I'm learning as I go here so please excuse any glaring mistakes I may have made. The closest LFS I trust is about an hour from me and I can usually only make it there once a week due to my shift.

Is there anything else I can do to get the Ram to not be afraid without removing the Gourami?

Here's some info about my tank that might help:

- Oceanic Biocube 29

- 3000lm full spectrum LED lights on timer with built in thermometer

- Heater set to 79

- Lightly planted (about a dozen Java ferns, some tufts of Eleocharis parvula, Anubias barteri nana in the bonsai tree, some frogbit and duckweed) working on planting more

- Coarse gravel covered in coarse sand

- Intank Media basket with floss, zeolite, a ceramic biological media I can't remember the name of

- 130 GPH return pump with spray bar

- "50 gallon" sponge filter (needed while some of the less successful plants melt away and diatoms clear up) 

- Stocking: 5 Kuhli Loaches, 2 otocinclus catfish, 3 glass catfish, 1 mystery snail, about a dozen ramshorn snails (for now)

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Sounds like a stressful situation for everyone involved, including yourself, and it sounds like you’ve tried everything to get it to work. 
 

Sometimes, things simply don’t work and you can’t force it. If it was me, I would be taking the Gourami back to the LFS. It might not be what you want to do, but it should alleviate the stress for both you and the fish. 

[Tony s]

The only thing that I might try is to increase the number of taller plants in the center. To provide more breaks in the line of site. Dwarf gourami behavior can be all over the place. From mostly gentle, to going after everything. I don’t think he can do much to the ram. The ram should be fast enough to keep away. You can either give it some time, it may resolve itself. Besides harassing each other a bit. They may learn to coexist. Probably not all the gourami’s fault either, rams are cichlids and can be aggressive as well. Or you can do what @AllFishNoBrakes suggests and return one of them. Whichever is the worst fit for your tank. 

[orangeisnon]

Thank you guys. I will try adding more plants in the center and seeing how it goes. That definitely puts a wrench in how I planned the tank to be set up, but if it gets them to chill out it will be worth it.

I agree that he doesn't seem to be actually hurting the Ram. Just making him depressed, and in turn he isn't eating when I feed the whole tank. Hopefully that will be alleviated with the extra plants too. If not, the Gourami will definitely be the one to go. The Ram is, in my girlfriend's words, "the only one that actually looks like a fish". Plus he's friends with our cat.

Side note, the Gourami is eating probably ten times more brown algae than both of the Otos and all of the snails combined. He is non stop with that stuff. Very convenient.

[Lennie]

Yea. I said it before, German blue rams are surely not peaceful. But they tend to be peaceful in a community tank in general, but I would classify them as semi aggressive at least.

 

I would personally crowd the tank with schooling fish that does not share the same color of your GBR if it is something like electric blue, gold, black, etc. Same goes for the gourami, I would choose a different color if the GBR is a selectively bred color. I kept my bettas and gouramis (golds and honeys) successfully with my GBRs (gold and blacks) but I always hesitate choosing very similar body size and color pattern between two aggressive fish.

 

All fish you have barely have any effect on crowding the tank. So likely your GBR claimed the whole tank and sees the gourami as a potential danger in its territory.

If you add many fast swimming schooling fish to the tank, they will be a big distraction for the fish considering they will constantly invade the territorial space of GBR and distract him nonstop, while making them feel more naturalistic I believe. Right now it is like two boxers in a boxing ring.

Long story short, here is what I would do: Play around the tank decor a bit. Get active fast swimmer fish that is suitable for such GBR temps( I personally like rummynoses but bigger tanks feels always better for these guys). Not only 6 or 8. I mean, crowd it. 15 of them. OR two different schools with 10 of each if thats your thingy. And keept the lights off for the day.

 

[orangeisnon]

On 5/25/2024 at 8:41 AM, Lennie said:

Yea. I said it before, German blue rams are surely not peaceful. But they tend to be peaceful in a community tank in general, but I would classify them as semi aggressive at least.

 

I would personally crowd the tank with schooling fish that does not share the same color of your GBR if it is something like electric blue, gold, black, etc. Same goes for the gourami, I would choose a different color if the GBR is a selectively bred color. I kept my bettas and gouramis (golds and honeys) successfully with my GBRs (gold and blacks) but I always hesitate choosing very similar body size and color pattern between two aggressive fish.

 

All fish you have barely have any effect on crowding the tank. So likely your GBR claimed the whole tank and sees the gourami as a potential danger in its territory.

If you add many fast swimming schooling fish to the tank, they will be a big distraction for the fish considering they will constantly invade the territorial space of GBR and distract him nonstop, while making them feel more naturalistic I believe. Right now it is like two boxers in a boxing ring.

Long story short, here is what I would do: Play around the tank decor a bit. Get active fast swimmer fish that is suitable for such GBR temps( I personally like rummynoses but bigger tanks feels always better for these guys). Not only 6 or 8. I mean, crowd it. 15 of them. OR two different schools with 10 of each if thats your thingy. And keept the lights off for the day.

 

Thank you! I'll get to my LFS and see what they have in stock that will work for this. I'm going to be away from this afternoon until Monday evening, do you think I should leave the lights off until I get back?

[Tony s]

On 5/25/2024 at 8:41 AM, Lennie said:

So likely your GBR claimed the whole tank and sees the gourami as a potential danger in its territory.

I think that was the gbr’s original plan anyway. But seeing how it’s now the one hiding, I’m thinking the dg wasn’t buying that at all 🤣

[orangeisnon]

I'm back from my trip, and luckily it looks like the issue sorted itself out. While they don't necessarily "get along", I haven't seen that sideways-attack behavior from the Gourami and nobody is hiding or looking depressed. My plants are also looking better than ever, the water is clear, and there's no brown algae. I'm starting to think I was the problem all along. 

The GBR/DG do still go at it if they get close enough - especially during feeding time - but they're pretty evenly matched at this point so it ends up just being a little dance until one of them gets bored and they go back to eating. I've yet to see any injuries.

As far as stocking the tank further, I think I'm going to get a few more glass cats and Kuhlis since they should be in bigger groups than I have right now, probably a bristlenose pleco, and find another small schooling fish to get 5-10 of to pad it out.

Thanks for all of your input guys!