Hard Water Second Opinion

[Mikon77]

Hello! I just discovered this forum and I am in need of a little advice. I’m new to fish keeping and I’m about to start cycling my very first aquarium (a 20 gallon). I’m a little worried about the hardness of my water though. 

My city has terrible, extremely hard water. I tested my tap water with a test strip (I’m waiting for a liquid test kit I ordered to get here) and my GH was at 180ppm. It was actually darker than the highest comparison square. My KH was about 80ppm. I tested the PH with a liquid kit and it was 8, almost 8.2. I’ve heard that fish sold at local stores should be accustomed to my hard water, but I spoke with an employee at my local Petco and they said they do not use straight tap and instead use RO.
 

Is this a massive issue? I asked on reddit and some people said it’s fine, and a few said it’s hard water and to invest in an RO system. I’m attaching my cities recent water test. I’m sorry if this is a silly question, it just seems like new hurdles keep popping up despite doing some research these past few weeks. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Edited March 6 by Mikon77

[face]

Most fish will adapt to hard water and some like live breads and African cichlids would love that water what are you wanting to keep?

But I would test for ammonia that report seems to say you have some in your water 

Edited March 6 by face

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 8:44 PM, face said:

Most fish will adapt to hard water and some like live breads and African cichlids would love that water what are you wanting to keep?

I’m not 100% sure yet. I’ve been really leaning towards either dwarf or honey Gourami and a couple of neon tetras.

Let me test the ammonia in my tap really quick.

Edited March 6 by Mikon77

[jwcarlson]

Do you have an ion exchange system (aka water softener)?

[Firedashflame]

Not sure if it was just a typo but neon tetras would do better in a group of at least 5 in that size of a tank if you also have a honey gourami. I would suggest 6 or more though.

Edited March 6 by Firedashflame

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 8:57 PM, Firedashflame said:

Not sure if it was just a typo but neon tetras would do better in a group of at least 5 in that size of a tank if you also have a honey gourami. I would suggest 6 or more though.

Sorry, I should have specified more. I was definitely planning on getting a school of at least 6.

[Firedashflame]

On 3/5/2024 at 7:00 PM, Mikon77 said:

Sorry, I should have specified more. I was definitely planning on getting a school of at least 6.

Yeah, that's what I assumed. But just checking! 🙂 

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 8:44 PM, face said:

But I would test for ammonia that report seems to say you have some in your water 

I just ran a quick test using an API liquid test kit and there is definitely ammonia in it! I’m reading 1.0ppm

On 3/5/2024 at 8:56 PM, jwcarlson said:

Do you have an ion exchange system (aka water softener)?

Nope, just plain tap water.

[Tony s]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:44 PM, face said:

live breads

Read live bearers here. Guppies,plates, mollies, swordtail, limias 

hard water is actually the most prevalent water in the US. Most fish will adapt just fine. You will usually only have problems with wild caught or sensitive fish  discus  apistogramma and rams. What you really want to do is not mess with your water and find local fish that are already adapted to it. Otherwise if you try to alter your water, you end up with a somewhat unstable water source that can be hard on your fish. 

 

To @jwcarlson’s point. If you do have a water softener, you really can’t use that water. The water softener salt will build up over time and kill any plant as well as be stressful to your fish. In which case you will need an RO system installed. Unfortunately that’s what I have. And tons of iron. To the point , everything that the water touches turns a rusty red. Even grass outside. 

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:05 PM, Tony s said:

Read live bearers here. Guppies,plates, mollies, swordtail, limias 

hard water is actually the most prevalent water in the US. Most fish will adapt just fine. You will usually only have problems with wild caught or sensitive fish  discus  apistogramma and rams. What you really want to do is not mess with your water and find local fish that are already adapted to it. Otherwise if you try to alter your water, you end up with a somewhat unstable water source that can be hard on your fish. 

 

The problem though is the only place I can get fish locally is Petco, Petsmart, and a mom and pop salt water only fish store. Petco told me they use RO water because the tap water is terrible. I haven’t asked at Petsmart, but I’m sure it’s the same. 

[Tony s]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:51 PM, Mikon77 said:

and a couple of neon tetras

You’ll want to be careful where you get them from. I cannot keep them alive for anything. Losing as much as 60% in the first 6 weeks. 

Yeah, it’s the genetics on neons that are bad. Even the water source won’t make a difference with them.

[jwcarlson]

I have kept and am currently keeping discus, apistogramma, and rams in my straight tap water.  8.2 pH, gH and kH both 16-20 degrees.  They won't successfully breed in this water, but they seem to survive just fine.  That TDS reading seems through the roof.  You'll note that is says "calc", so perhaps that number is completely made up.  TDS is a bit of an odd duck... I don't understand why it isn't cumulative with all the other solids.  But it doesn't seem like that's the case for reasons above my head.  In general, though, TDS isn't a particularly important number.

I would guess that you could keep a very wide variety of fish in your tap water.  

Instead of tetras, I'd suggest seeing if you can find some celestial pearl danios.  They stay a bit smaller and seem to thrive in hard water, I believe that's close to their natural water.  They breed readily in my tap water.

AquaHuna is a good choice if you can't find fish locally.  I've had pretty good luck with several orders from them.

Edited March 6 by jwcarlson

[Tony s]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:10 PM, Mikon77 said:

The problem though is the only place I can get fish locally is Petco, Petsmart

Same here. I still buy from them. Especially bettas, I try to rescue them from the bowls. Local is relative. I drive at least an hour for one store and an hour and half for the other 

[Tony s]

Try this video. And possibly this channel. It’s from a microbiology professor from Chicago. He keeps his fish in hard Midwest water and doesn’t do anything to his water because he sells fish on side. Wants his costumers to have fish they can be successful with

 

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:12 PM, Tony s said:

You’ll want to be careful where you get them from. I cannot keep them alive for anything. Losing as much as 60% in the first 6 weeks. 

Yeah, it’s the genetics on neons that are bad. Even the water source won’t make a difference with them.

I’m not really set on Neons, I’m just trying to think of something that would live well with a pair of dwarf gouramis. My Petco has some and they are beautiful!

On 3/5/2024 at 9:15 PM, jwcarlson said:

I have kept and am currently keeping discus, apistogramma, and rams in my straight tap water.  8.2 pH, gH and kH both 16-20 degrees.  They won't successfully breed in this water, but they seem to survive just fine.  That TDS reading seems through the roof.  You'll note that is says "calc", so perhaps that number is completely made up.  TDS is a bit of an odd duck... I don't understand why it isn't cumulative with all the other solids.  But it doesn't seem like that's the case for reasons above my head.  In general, though, TDS isn't a particularly important number.

I would guess that you could keep a very wide variety of fish in your tap water.  

Instead of tetras, I'd suggest seeing if you can find some celestial pearl danios.  They stay a bit smaller and seem to thrive in hard water, I believe that's close to their natural water.  They breed readily in my tap water.

AquaHuna is a good choice if you can't find fish locally.  I've had pretty good luck with several orders from them.

So then would you recommend just starting my tank with just straight tap water? It just makes me incredibly worried too if not even Petco will use it. 
I don’t recall seeing any danios at Petco, but I didn’t know you could order fish online! I’ll have to check that website out!

[jwcarlson]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:30 PM, Mikon77 said:

So then would you recommend just starting my tank with just straight tap water? It just makes me incredibly worried too if not even Petco will use it. 
I don’t recall seeing any danios at Petco, but I didn’t know you could order fish online! I’ll have to check that website out!

Yes.  I think people get a bit too hung up on tap water if all they're doing is keeping fish alive to observe.  Breeding is a different animal, but even with hard water I'm finding a ton of egg laying fish that seem to breed just fine in it with the proper care.

[Tony s]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:30 PM, Mikon77 said:

So then would you recommend just starting my tank with just straight tap water

Honestly yeah, I did, @jwcarlson does it. It’s better because it’s stable. When you start to change it, it’s called chasing parameters. It gets really difficult to replicate it exactly every time. You can do mixes. A certain amount of tap added to a certain amount of RO. Which works. But it’s easier just to use tap

On 3/5/2024 at 10:30 PM, Mikon77 said:

I don’t recall seeing any danios at Petco

They must’ve been out. Petsmart usually has tons. They would work great. As would most rasboras.

If you can find black or green neons, they would work as well. The genetics are relatively untouched

 

[Tony s]

And African cichlids we can do all day, and twice on Sunday. Shell dwellers. Yellow labs. Kribensis. All will love your water as do the live bearers.

And snails and cherry shrimp 

 

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:22 PM, Tony s said:

Try this video. And possibly this channel. It’s from a microbiology professor from Chicago. He keeps his fish in hard Midwest water and doesn’t do anything to his water because he sells fish on side. Wants his costumers to have fish they can be successful with

 

I love this guys channel!!! So far his videos have helped a lot! I have a lot more of his videos to go through though.

 

On 3/5/2024 at 9:33 PM, jwcarlson said:

Yes.  I think people get a bit too hung up on tap water if all they're doing is keeping fish alive to observe.  Breeding is a different animal, but even with hard water I'm finding a ton of egg laying fish that seem to breed just fine in it with the proper care.

Would having harder water make maintenance more difficult though? I saw another user on a different forum complain about having to perform massive water changes to combat the rising GH, and deal with lots of calcium stains. 
 

On 3/5/2024 at 9:34 PM, Tony s said:

Honestly yeah, I did, @jwcarlson does it. It’s better because it’s stable. When you start to change it, it’s called chasing parameters. It gets really difficult to replicate it exactly every time. You can do mixes. A certain amount of tap added to a certain amount of RO. Which works. But it’s easier just to use tap

With an RO system, I was planning on using it just to cut my tap some. Like a 50/50 split just to help soften it a little, then just perform the necessary water changes with the same ratio.

Edited March 6 by Mikon77

[Tony s]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:43 PM, Mikon77 said:

Would having harder water make maintenance more difficult though? I saw another user on a different forum complain about having to perform massive water changes to combat the rising GH, and deal with lots of calcium stains

You can get some calcium buildup. On the glass. You’ll need regular water changes. If you only do top off, it can build up, until the next water change. To clean the glass you can use an unscented magic eraser (mister clean, yeah, who knew, right) 

 

On 3/5/2024 at 10:43 PM, Mikon77 said:

I was planning on using it just to cut my tap some

You can do that exactly. Depending on how much you need. 10-20 gallons is no big deal. If you want to go to 75 it gets tougher. You’ll be stuck doing buckets with RO. The advantage of tap is you can buy a python system to move water in and out of your tank.

On 3/5/2024 at 10:43 PM, Mikon77 said:

I love this guys channel!!! So far his videos have helped a lot! I have a lot more of his videos to go through though.

Pay attention to the species profiles. They give you an idea of what we can raise. He won’t do a profile on something we can’t 

[jwcarlson]

I've never noticed GH going up, but I honestly do not check.  Yes, you'll get calcium deposits, but this is not some sort of insurmountable challenge.  I've had tanks set up for years that have some moderate amount of calcium built up, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd say that the biggest drawback is that with hard water and high pH you have a couple of things to consider.  First, your water (like mine) will be a bacterial soup.  Bacteria likes higher pHs.  That's good for cycling and maybe not so good generally.  I know that I cannot get away with some of the things that some discus keepers get away with for instance.  It's just something to be aware of.  

I believe that plants can also struggle in hard water, though I do not understand why.  I have a certain selection of plants that does well in my water as long as I keep nitrogen available for them.  This is somewhat difficult because of my maintenance routines, but if you find what works you can still grow jungles.

[Scapexghost]

You may have trouble breeding wild bettas but you can keep any of the more common fish no problem.

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:34 PM, Tony s said:

They must’ve been out. Petsmart usually has tons. They would work great. As would most rasboras.

If you can find black or green neons, they would work as well. The genetics are relatively untouched

 

Now I do remember seeing some rasboras! I don’t remember if I saw black or green neons though. I would get fish from Petsmart, but it seems like getting them from mine would be a huge gamble. The staff there doesn’t seem to care much about the aquatic section, and the fish don’t look too great.

On 3/5/2024 at 9:50 PM, Tony s said:

You can get some calcium buildup. On the glass. You’ll need regular water changes. If you only do top off, it can build up, until the next water change. To clean the glass you can use an unscented magic eraser (mister clean, yeah, who knew, right) 

That doesn’t seem difficult. They made it sound like a massive battle that normal maintenance couldn’t solve. 
 

On 3/5/2024 at 9:50 PM, Tony s said:

You can do that exactly. Depending on how much you need. 10-20 gallons is no big deal. If you want to go to 75 it gets tougher. You’ll be stuck doing buckets with RO. The advantage of tap is you can buy a python system to move water in and out of your tank.

Well, unfortunately I don’t have room for any other aquariums. A 20 gallon was the largest I had room for. That’s kinda why I wonder if an RO system would be better in the long run. I can bring my hard water down as low I need it for whatever I plan to care for.

 

Edited March 6 by Mikon77
Fixed last quote

[Mikon77]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:55 PM, jwcarlson said:

I’d say that the biggest drawback is that with hard water and high pH you have a couple of things to consider.  First, your water (like mine) will be a bacterial soup.  Bacteria likes higher pHs.  That's good for cycling and maybe not so good generally.  I know that I cannot get away with some of the things that some discus keepers get away with for instance.  It's just something to be aware of.  

I believe that plants can also struggle in hard water, though I do not understand why.  I have a certain selection of plants that does well in my water as long as I keep nitrogen available for them.  This is somewhat difficult because of my maintenance routines, but if you find what works you can still grow jungles.

I’m a little confused when you mention bacteria and high pH. Does that mean the tank would be at a higher risk for bad bacteria as well? I also plan on planting some live plants as well, if my water will allow it. Plants such as java fern and anubias.

 

 

On 3/5/2024 at 9:58 PM, Scapexghost said:

You may have trouble breeding wild bettas but you can keep any of the more common fish no problem.

Thankfully I don’t plan on breeding any fish. That’s why I’m avoiding guppies haha

[face]

On 3/5/2024 at 11:13 PM, Mikon77 said:

I’m a little confused when you mention bacteria and high pH. Does that mean the tank would be at a higher risk for bad bacteria as well? I also plan on planting some live plants as well, if my water will allow it. Plants such as java fern and anubias.

 Nitrifying bacteria use carbonate in the water just like plants use co2 high ph means higher carbonate levels so your tank will theoretically cycle faster 

I would bet the reason your PetSmart uses ro water is the ammonia not how hard the water is with that much ammonia a large water change could easily cause a lot of problems