My tank's cycle crashed. Am I doing the right things to recover it?

[cr0wley]

I had a dwarf gourami pass last week. It was in the tank overnight before I realized it. After the initial water change post mortem, I noticed that the PH was now 6, with 0.5 ammonia, high nitrites, high nitrates. This sounds to me like the cycle basically restarted. I've been doing 50% wc's every 2 days, supplementating baking soda to stabilize the PH, and using API Aqua Essentials twice a day. I've also been adding bacteria. Is treating this like a fish in cycle the proper way to stabilize my tank?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I’m sorry for the loss of your gourami.
 

I’d agree with water changes and bacteria!

(Not sure about the baking soda or aqua essentials.)

Edited July 3, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Galabar]

What size tank, what type of filtration, how long has the tank been running, and what other livestock is in the tank?

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Galabar

[cr0wley]

On 7/3/2023 at 4:34 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I’m sorry for the loss of your gourami.
 

I’d agree with water changes and bacteria!

(Not sure about the baking soda or aqua essentials.)

Baking soda is to increase the ph a bit to promote bacteria growth. Tank previouslyph, hovered around 6.8-7.2. Just planning on using baking soda until I can grab crushed coral to help out. Aqua Essentials is essentially Seachem Prime.

On 7/3/2023 at 4:46 PM, Galabar said:

What size tank, what type of filtration, how long has the tank been running, and what other livestock is in the tank?

 

10g, tank has been running for a year and a half. I have an oversized top fin aquaclear 30g knockoff. Filter media is bio rings and sponges. Livestock is 9 neons, 5 danios. I previously haven't had issues due to the over filtration but I think that the gourami death threw everything out of balance.

[JimOp]

couple more questions,

What is your source water look like when tested?

And last are you treating the tap water?

 

Baking soda is ok for a band aid, crushed coral is not a great solution as you may end up fighting with high ph. alkaline water and reverse your problem.
Figuring out the problem and treating that is better solution.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

Source water is ph 7.6, amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 0-5. I also remembered that I do have the fluval biostratum in the 10g, which buffers the PH slightly, but shouldn't be affecting the ph as much as whatever is going on is. I did a teaspoon of baking soda and brought the ph from 6 to 7.2, and added bacteria.

Here's a peek at my log.

[cr0wley]

On 7/3/2023 at 6:39 PM, JimOp said:

couple more questions,

What is your source water look like when tested?

And last are you treating the tap water?

 

Baking soda is ok for a band aid, crushed coral is not a great solution as you may end up fighting with high ph. alkaline water and reverse your problem.
Figuring out the problem and treating that is better solution.

 

From what I gather I should only need to add baking soda for the amount of time it takes for bacteria to come back and reproduce right?

[Galabar]

I don't think your cycled would have "crashed."  The death of the gourami might have added some extra ammonia and your biological filtration is trying to catch up.  The tank should fairly quickly be able to adjust to the new amount of ammonia.  However, you've been doing water changes and still see the ammonia.

So, I'm not sure what is going on...

[cr0wley]

On 7/3/2023 at 7:44 PM, Galabar said:

I don't think your cycled would have "crashed."  The death of the gourami might have added some extra ammonia and your biological filtration is trying to catch up.  The tank should fairly quickly be able to adjust to the new amount of ammonia.  However, you've been doing water changes and still see the ammonia.

So, I'm not sure what is going on...

Yeah from what I've read it really seems like one fish death, albeit a larger one, shouldn't have affected the ph as much as it did. I'm going to be keeping an eye on my water from the tap for a while and see if I notice anything. 

 

Edit: I've also cut feeding down to once every 3 days while I'm figuring this out. Is this a good idea? I'm honestly confused at this point, I have a lot of plants and snails that should have been helping.

Edited July 3, 2023 by cr0wley

[JimOp]

Has any thing new been introduced into the tank? Stones or decorations? Limestone can leach into your tank making the water acidic and lower the PH. Something is causing the drop. PH goes hand in hand with alkalinity.  pH is hydrogen ions the acidity of water. Alkalinity is the ability of the water to neutralize or buffer changes in acidity. Baking soda is a buffer, it raises the alkalinity and that changes the PH. 

Essentially something is leaching acid into the water. If there is something new you are using filter media or new decorations that would be the obvious places to look. If not I would change out your filter media to see if that helps. What ever is happening is the reason you lost a fish not the result of a dead fish in your tank.

[cr0wley]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:15 PM, JimOp said:

Has any thing new been introduced into the tank? Stones or decorations? Limestone can leach into your tank making the water acidic and lower the PH. Something is causing the drop. PH goes hand in hand with alkalinity.  pH is hydrogen ions the acidity of water. Alkalinity is the ability of the water to neutralize or buffer changes in acidity. Baking soda is a buffer, it raises the alkalinity and that changes the PH. 

Essentially something is leaching acid into the water. If there is something new you are using filter media or new decorations that would be the obvious places to look. If not I would change out your filter media to see if that helps. What ever is happening is the reason you lost a fish not the result of a dead fish in your tank.

hmmm, the only thing i added recently was a very damaged java windelov. i pitched it a few days ago. could that have caused any of these problems?

[JimOp]

Decaying plants can lower PH so yes it is possible. but if it hasn't improved since tossing it, i would keep looking. Changing out the filter media may help as there may be trapped and decaying plant matter on the filter media thats preventing the recovery until it is fully decayed, changing it is faster.

Edited July 4, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:00 PM, JimOp said:

Decaying plants can lower PH so yes it is possible. but if it hasn't improved since tossing it, i would keep looking. Changing out the filter media may help as there may be trapped and decaying plant matter on the filter media thats preventing the recovery until it is fully decayed, changing it is faster.

I'll check into it tomorrow when its light out. Should I continue adding bacteria until the issue resolves?

[JimOp]

Fix the PH issue, the bacteria will sort its self out.

[cr0wley]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:20 PM, JimOp said:

Fix the PH issue, the bacteria will sort its self out.

I'm actually a dumba**, I completely had forgotten that I took out a bag of coral I had in my filter a few weeks ago to put more biomedia in.

[cr0wley]

Would this plus the fish death be enough to drop it hard you think? What I'm thinking now is just use soda to keep it at bay while waiting for coral to arrive. I am thinking that the removal of the coral, fish death, and the fact that my plant substrate buffers are all working against me.

[JimOp]

Honestly, a 10 gallon tank filled with your source water shouldn't need coral. The water you are using is already high PH. If anything you would need a water softener with a PH of 7.8 . The fact that your PH dropped enough that you felt you needed to put coral in, tells me that what ever is causing the issue, has been in your tank for a long time. I have had aquariums for over 40 years and have never once used coral to buffer and change the PH. The other thing is that you say your doing 50% water changes every three days due to low ph is telling too. Something you have in your tank is causing these issues. Aquarium PH and alkalinity do not dramatically change on their own. Especially not as dramatically as you are seeing. That its self is dangerous for your fish. big Ph swings can kill your critters. Dead fish do not cause this kind of PH swing, Pulling the coral out would. However the coral you are adding is masking a problem with your tank. You could add coral back and stabilize the PH and be done with it, but what ever the problem is will remain in your tank. If you want to figure out why you need coral when you shouldn't, that will take a bit of trouble shooting.

What you need to do is test your water and mark it down. Also I would maybe get another different brand test kit or strips as a sanity check incase something is wrong with the kit/strips you are using. Clean your filter out completely of all media, rinse it out and install the filter with out any filter media. Just using it for flow and attempting to rule out your filter media.. If your PH is in a safe range, leave the water alone. If PH is very low do a water change. Do not add anything to the water, with the exception of water conditioner if needed. Dead bacteria decomposes too and will spike nitrites/nitrates. a little high nitrates is ok with a planted tank, higher nitrites on the other hand is bad. solution to nitrate/nitrite issues is water changes. If you add bacteria to a tank with a problem and it dies, it turns into waste starts breaking down and turns into nitrites and nitrates.

 Test it in 15 min and test again in 2 hours. If you did the water change your tank PH should be higher. If it is still low than you need to look for something in your tank. If it is higher, Test the water the next day to see if the PH dropped. If it hasn't than there is something wrong with the filter media you are using. If PH dropped again you need to look for something still in the tank.

A 10 gallon tank is a small and unforgiving environment when conditions change. Meaning that it does not take much to throw it off so changing  small things can have dramatic effects to the water quality.


NOTE:
API Aqua Essentials should only be used to treat the water you are adding on, not the entire tank when doing water changes. Do not do a water change and then treat the tank. I use a 5 Gal Lowes bucket and treat the new water prior to putting it in the tank. Putting chlorinated water in a tank and then treating it can shock and kill bacteria, plants and fish. The water changes is what battles the PH, alkalinity, high nitrate and nitrites issues. Never use the water conditioner more than once a day.

If you can post a picture of your tank. One other thing, are you using co2 in the tank?

Edited July 4, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

On 7/4/2023 at 5:30 AM, JimOp said:

Honestly, a 10 gallon tank filled with your source water shouldn't need coral. The water you are using is already high PH. If anything you would need a water softener with a PH of 7.8 . The fact that your PH dropped enough that you felt you needed to put coral in, tells me that what ever is causing the issue, has been in your tank for a long time. I have had aquariums for over 40 years and have never once used coral to buffer and change the PH. The other thing is that you say your doing 50% water changes every three days due to low ph is telling too. Something you have in your tank is causing these issues. Aquarium PH and alkalinity do not dramatically change on their own. Especially not as dramatically as you are seeing. That its self is dangerous for your fish. big Ph swings can kill your critters. Dead fish do not cause this kind of PH swing, Pulling the coral out would. However the coral you are adding is masking a problem with your tank. You could add coral back and stabilize the PH and be done with it, but what ever the problem is will remain in your tank. If you want to figure out why you need coral when you shouldn't, that will take a bit of trouble shooting.

What you need to do is test your water and mark it down. Also I would maybe get another different brand test kit or strips as a sanity check incase something is wrong with the kit/strips you are using. Clean your filter out completely of all media, rinse it out and install the filter with out any filter media. Just using it for flow and attempting to rule out your filter media.. If your PH is in a safe range, leave the water alone. If PH is very low do a water change. Do not add anything to the water, with the exception of water conditioner if needed. Dead bacteria decomposes too and will spike nitrites/nitrates. a little high nitrates is ok with a planted tank, higher nitrites on the other hand is bad. solution to nitrate/nitrite issues is water changes. If you add bacteria to a tank with a problem and it dies, it turns into waste starts breaking down and turns into nitrites and nitrates.

 Test it in 15 min and test again in 2 hours. If you did the water change your tank PH should be higher. If it is still low than you need to look for something in your tank. If it is higher, Test the water the next day to see if the PH dropped. If it hasn't than there is something wrong with the filter media you are using. If PH dropped again you need to look for something still in the tank.

A 10 gallon tank is a small and unforgiving environment when conditions change. Meaning that it does not take much to throw it off so changing  small things can have dramatic effects to the water quality.


NOTE:
API Aqua Essentials should only be used to treat the water you are adding on, not the entire tank when doing water changes. Do not do a water change and then treat the tank. I use a 5 Gal Lowes bucket and treat the new water prior to putting it in the tank. Putting chlorinated water in a tank and then treating it can shock and kill bacteria, plants and fish. The water changes is what battles the PH, alkalinity, high nitrate and nitrites issues. Never use the water conditioner more than once a day.

If you can post a picture of your tank. One other thing, are you using co2 in the tank?

No C02. Only things in here besides the fish are snails and a fair bit of plants. I've scoured the tank bottom and cannot find any dead creatures. At this point I am suspecting filter media. Its the original media and has been in there for about 6 months.

For test kits I currently have a full API kit as well as test strips, but the ammonia patch on the strips never does anything, so it can only be used to gauge ph, nitrites, nitrates, gh, and kh.

[JimOp]

First major problem, WAY too many snails in the tank. I counted at least 15 from the picture. Snails poop too adding to the bioload increasing nitrites and nitrates they also breath sucking up oxygen both your plants and fish need. I would reduce snails to like 1 in a 10 gallon tank.

Second issue may be the stones. Where did you get them?  Some stones can leach into the water and change the chemistry. If you got them from a creek I would take them out, You may want to try removing them anyway while trying to sort out the issues with the PH. 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

On 7/4/2023 at 2:36 PM, JimOp said:

First major problem, WAY too many snails in the tank. I counted at least 15 from the picture. Snails poop too adding to the bioload increasing nitrites and nitrates they also breath sucking up oxygen both your plants and fish need. I would reduce snails to like 1 in a 10 gallon tank.

Second issue may be the stones. Where did you get them?  Some stones can leach into the water and change the chemistry. If you got them from a creek I would take them out, You may want to try removing them anyway while trying to sort out the issues with the PH. 
 

 The stones have been in there since the tank was started, aquarium pebbles from an aquarium company. Are the snails really adding that much more of a bioload? I always heard that they had small bioload like shrimp.

Edited July 4, 2023 by cr0wley

[JimOp]

On 7/4/2023 at 1:44 PM, cr0wley said:

 The stones have been in there since the tank was started, aquarium pebbles from an aquarium company. Are the snails really adding that much more of a bioload? I always heard that they had small bioload like shrimp.

How long have you needed to add crushed coral to raise the PH? If you say from the beginning.. well it could be the rocks and it is worth a shot to remove them at least temporarily to see. 

As far as snails go it depends on the type of snails you have in there. You have 8 neon tetras that is already at the topping out the bioload that I would recommend for a 10 gallon. Add in more than a dozen snails and could be loads more babies, I can't see.

Remember what I said about small changes make a big difference in a 10 gallon?
You have very high nitrites and nitrates a sign the tank may be overloaded. Snails breed and keep breeding as long as there is enough food.
You have PH that drops from 7.1 to 6.0 in three days meaning something in the tank is causing the water to become acidic. 

That's my best guesses as to what could be happening.

Edited July 4, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

On 7/4/2023 at 3:12 PM, JimOp said:

How long have you needed to add crushed coral to raise the PH? If you say from the beginning.. well it could be the rocks and it is worth a shot to remove them at least temporarily to see. 

As far as snails go it depends on the type of snails you have in there. You have 8 neon tetras that is already at the topping out the bioload that I would recommend for a 10 gallon. Add in more than a dozen snails and could be loads more babies, I can't see.

Remember what I said about small changes make a big difference in a 10 gallon?
You have very high nitrites and nitrates a sign the tank may be overloaded. Snails breed and keep breeding as long as there is enough food.
You have PH that drops from 7.1 to 6.0 in three days meaning something in the tank is causing the water to become acidic. 

That's my best guesses as to what could be happening.

I originally was using the crushed coral as like I said previously I have the fluval bio stratum which buffers a bit lower.

 

 

Edit: Do you have any tips or tricks for snatching snails out of the tank? 

Edited July 4, 2023 by cr0wley

[JimOp]

On 7/4/2023 at 2:49 PM, cr0wley said:

I originally was using the crushed coral as like I said previously I have the fluval bio stratum which buffers a bit lower.

 

 

Edit: Do you have any tips or tricks for snatching snails out of the tank? 

I have never used that Substrate but from what I read it shouldn't make your PH drop like a rock but it can take it into the mid 6.5 ish. Never using it perhaps the crushed coral is your PH solution. 

Snails you can just pick out with your fingers or use snail traps if you want, you can keep a few if you want but like I said they will constantly breed. I smush the babies in my tank and the fish eat them. but not sure if your neon's would eat them so best to remove as many babies as you can to start and keep your favorite big ones just not too many.

Edited July 4, 2023 by JimOp

[Galabar]

I wouldn't worry about the snails.  They are eating algae and leftover food.  So, they should add to your bio-load.

To expand on that, snails will:

1) Eat dead plant matter, which would have rotted.  No additional ammonia is added.

2) Eat leftover food, which would have rotted.  No additional ammonia is added.

3) Eat algae, which took a small amount of nitrogenous waste out of the water.  This just allows that nitrogen to reenter the water, forming more algae, rinse and repeat.  No additional ammonia is added.

So, unless you are specifically feeding your snails, they are net-zero in your tank (but have a lot of benefits).  Some folks don't like the look of them.  However, that has nothing to do with your bioload.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Galabar

[cr0wley]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:29 PM, JimOp said:

I have never used that Substrate but from what I read it shouldn't make your PH drop like a rock but it can take it into the mid 6.5 ish. Never using it perhaps the crushed coral is your PH solution. 

Snails you can just pick out with your fingers or use snail traps if you want, you can keep a few if you want but like I said they will constantly breed. I smush the babies in my tank and the fish eat them. but not sure if your neon's would eat them so best to remove as many babies as you can to start and keep your favorite big ones just not too many.

I feel like smushing the babies would just increase the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates wouldn't it?

On 7/4/2023 at 5:59 PM, Galabar said:

I wouldn't worry about the snails.  They are eating algae and leftover food.  So, they should add to your bio-load.

To expand on that, snails will:

1) Eat dead plant matter, which would have rotted.  No additional ammonia is added.

2) Eat leftover food, which would have rotted.  No additional ammonia is added.

3) Eat algae, which took a small amount of nitrogenous waste out of the water.  This just allows that nitrogen to reenter the water, forming more algae, rinse and repeat.  No additional ammonia is added.

So, unless you are specifically feeding your snails, they are net-zero in your tank (but have a lot of benefits).  Some folks don't like the look of them.  However, that has nothing to do with your bioload.

 

Interesting. I'm going to do a double check and make sure there's no dead snails anywhere, and then I guess I'll leave them be for now as I re-cycle the tank. Thanks to everyone in the thread by the way.