Spencer Heaton
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Posts posted by Spencer Heaton
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On 10/6/2022 at 6:53 AM, Andy's Fish Den said:
What I would do is take a five galloon bucket of RO/DI water and add in the appropriate amount of cichlid salt of choice, either Seachem or Fritz both make good ones and let circulate fore a bit then test the water and see how it tests. If all the numbers come out good, then do it that way, if they're not quite right, add some equilibrium and see what happens. I have a feeling all you will need is the cichlid salts.
Thanks Andy's Fish Den - are there any specific parameters (besides PH) I should be measuring for or aiming for??
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Hi Everyone,
So the tap water at my new home is terrible in so many ways. The parameters change it seems almost daily which has caused huge issues for my fish and weekly water changes on 13 tanks. So I decided to go the RO/DI route and remineralize to be able to stabilize my parameters. All my tanks currently are planted so I plan to use Seachem equilibrium, Seachem Alkaline Buffer and Acid Buffer with Seachem Trace products to get the right mix for those tanks.
I am also looking to setup a 110gal & a 40Gal Breeder tank for African Cichlids (Mbuna and Peacocks) and I am wonder what I will need to add to RO/DI water to get it to the right PH/KH/mineral mix for these fish.
For example, will I be able to use Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt, Malawi Buffer and Cichlid Trace or will I still need to use equilibrium first? I might also try to use some hardy, native plants like Bolbitus, Anubius, etc (depending on their tolerance to the water parameters I will end up with) to help with Nitrates and reduce the need for larger water changes.
Anyway, just looking for some advice and to find out if anyone has done this before and what they did to provide the best water parameters for these fish using RO/DI.
thanks,
Spencer
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On 9/28/2022 at 3:14 PM, flyingcow said:
yeah RODI will get you a little closer to pure, the difference is really in dissolved ions (sodium calcium etc). Those will pass through an RO, but not a DI. Higher molecular weight stuff won't make it through the RO.
I use both buffers to manage pH of the water going in so it isn't too high. It works pretty well. My pH is always a little higher than planned, but it stays at 7.5 rock solid in the tank. I was shooting for 7, but my measurements are real easy for 5 gallons (2g Alkaline, 1g Acid, 4g Equilibrium) so it's hard to make a mistake and easy to repeat and get 7.5.
thanks flyingcow - I will order some and play around until I get repeatable results!!!
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On 9/28/2022 at 2:58 PM, flyingcow said:
That's a big variable. straight RO is unlikely to have much buffering capacity, but with a crappy RO unit like most of us can buy, there might be a little bit. A new membrane would have just about zero. I wouldn't count on it unless it was highly repeatable. Alkaline and Acid buffers do a good job of making repeatable results when you make up batches of water, and they aren't very expensive or time consuming if you're already adding equilibrium.
Thanks flyingcow - so really RO/DI is closer to pure H2O then RO but assume no real difference - do you use both buffers to balance off each other for PH ?
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On 9/28/2022 at 2:49 PM, jwcarlson said:
Your water (without anything done to it) is very similar to mine. I noticed some issues when mixing to get the right temp. I eventually went straight cold and I just age and preheat everything. Mainly for discus, but I am also setup to do the same for my smaller tanks. One thing to check would be pH swing fresh out of the tap and aerated for 24 hours. Mine swings from 7 to about 8.2-8.3, so it must have quite a bit of dissolved CO2 in it, I would guess.
In any event, I would avoid the "softened" water, which is most times mislabeled as it is probably an ion exchange unit. I know some people say it's not a problem, but I'm not convinced.
Thanks jwcarlson - mine right out of the tap is 8 but have not let it sit and retested a day or so later - will try that and advise if different
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On 9/28/2022 at 2:41 PM, flyingcow said:
I use RO/DI due to some weirdness in my well water. It is quite a bit of work to get set up and running smooth (not so much the equipment, more so dialing in the logistics and processes i.e. not using a python). But once you figure out how you're gonna handle it, it isn't bad at all! I use Seachem Equilibrium, Alkaline Buffer, and Acid Buffer in mine to remineralize. The results are a little higher pH in the tank than the Seachem chart says, but I'm getting the same thing consistently with every batch, and for me 7.5 is a lot better than 8.8.
My next big project is to skid build it and semi automate it. It'll be fun! ...right?
Thanks flyingcow, so do you both Alkaline Buffer, and Acid Buffer because you use RO/Di versus just RO or is this for other reasons? I have read in a lot of posts you only need to use Seachem Equilibrium with straight RO water as it still has some buffering ability. I can cut off from the DI unit if needed for my freshwater tanks if I need to but if not (i.e. they both needs the same pre-treatment before using them with fish/plants) then I wont.
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So I have been doing some research on RO and RO/DI units. I wanted to try a saltwater tank anyway so may invest in an RO/DI unit but I have some questions.
It looks like RO water is fine for Freshwater tanks so long as you re-mineralize it. However, some people say you can also use RO/DI water the same way while others say RO/DI is missing the buffers that RO water still has?
Does anyone know more about the differences and which one is better for Freshwater tanks?
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On 9/25/2022 at 2:08 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:
I see you have a carbon filter. Do you add de chlore anyway? If not I would at least test for chlorine.
Thanks Wrencher_Scott, yes I always add Prime anyway as I am sure the mix with city water has some Chlorine or Chloramines in it
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On 9/24/2022 at 3:12 AM, Flumpweesel said:
Just stop mixing, softeners use things that fish like a lot less than a bit of cold water. You could always let the water change water stand to get to room temp if you wish.
Or use the kettle to warn some up to take the chill off.
If it's practical rain water could be considered.
Thanks Flumpweesel, given I have 12 tanks that is a lot of water to just let stands or a lot of kettle runs. May need to look at getting some large bins and a few heaters maybe to just use the city water
On 9/24/2022 at 7:49 AM, TOtrees said:Agree. Suggestions above are good, here are a few more:
Do you have room for a reservoir for water change water? Say a garbage bin or something? For smaller water changes, adding new water that is room temp (or even tap temp) shouldn’t perturb the fish too much. You can use a calculator at this site to figure final temp of mixing two different volumes of two different temps. https://rechneronline.de/chemie-rechner/mix-temperatures.php
You can also figure out how much volume of heated water (of known temp) is needed to bring your change water to a desired temp. So you might only need to heat (eg boil, in kettle) a few quarts/cups whatever to get your change water to the desired temp range.
It will also let you know in advance how much a straight cold change of x volume will change your tank temp. Anything less than 5F shift over a few minutes should be fine.
If the reservoir option is workable, you could drop a heater in there, set to the temp you want.
So there are many ways to get the water temp you want without using your softened hot water, or figure out if using cold/room temp water is okay.Thanks TOtrees, yes Bin option with heaters is workable and a very good idea!!!!
On 9/24/2022 at 8:16 AM, flyingcow said:Yeah, I wouldn't worry about temperature as much, but 17 degrees hardness is a LOT for South American fish. Most fish adapt, but that's a huge adaptation.
Thanks flyingcow, I have not had to consider this before given my tap water was very good in comparison to here. Maybe it is time to look at an RO or RO/DI unit for my planted tanks and SA Cichlids
On 9/24/2022 at 10:40 AM, lefty o said:id bet the TDS isnt as much salt as you think. water softeners add very trace amounts of salt. stick with regular plain water softener salt for it though. the bags of salt labeled with iron removers etc can add things you dont want in your water.
Thanks left o, if that is the case - might be time to consider RO or RO/Di unit then
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Hi Everyone,
I was forced to move a month or so ago and the new house has a water softener and filtration system that includes a dechlorinater and a membrane filter similar to an RO system.
I had a plumber install a new sink for me with the cold source taken from before the softener/filter system and the hot water from the hotwater tank which unfortunately gets its source from the softener before it is heated.
I have been mixing hot and cold water and doing my water changes as normal and for the last few weeks and I have lost some fish (mostly my apistos) and a few chain loaches. (I have 12 tanks)
Most of the fish including the Rams seem to be doing ok but a couple of other apisto have turned dark over the last few weeks (different species than the ones that died).
Also not a lot of my plants seem to be doing well and I had a huge jungle of Val which has slowing just died off.
So, I just did some water test and here are my results:
Mix of hot and cold:
0ppm Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite
PH of approx 7.6 to 7.8
GH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm
KH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm
TDS of ~480ppm
Just HOT water (softened):
0ppm Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite
PH of approx 7.2 to 7.4
GH of 1 drop so ~0-50ppm
KH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm
TDS of ~680ppm
Just COLD water (city):
0ppm Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite
PH of approx 7.8 to 8.0
GH of 22 drops so ~200-400ppm
KH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm
TDS of ~300ppm
I know that the majority of the TDS is the the sodium from the softener. I also believe this may be the source of the issue with a lot of my live plant issues.
However, I am also wondering if I should be adding minerals back to the water (using one of those trace products) since it looks like some or most of the TDS is KH related so I am thinking there is not enough trace elements left in the water after it has been filtered through the system even though I am mixing with the city water.
Also l am thinking I may need add an RODI unit to the mix but it would need to be connected to the city water (cold) I assume so that will not help remove all the sodium from the mix either.
Any advise anyone can give me would be great!!!! I will attach some pics to help illustrate what I am referring to.
Thanks,
Spencer
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I know - I had really hoped I could leave them both together but I was worried he would eat the fry as it looks like he is ready to spawn again
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So I pulled the male this morning and just put him in a large breeder box (temp) till I figure out what to do - hang on the tank one with water flow from the tank.
He was starting to get really aggressive with the female and although she was fighting back it seemed most of her time was fighting him back versus tending to the fry.
She seems much calmer now that he is gone and I will watch her to see if removing him helps.
How long should I let her tend to the fry?
Was thinking I could pull the fry into the breeder box and put the male back in the tank in a few days if that works? I have the Fluval 17' fry feeder (turkey baster) device that I think I could suck them up with - thoughts?
Thanks,
Spencer
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Thanks tolstoy21
So far so good - no major beatings and 4+ days of alive fry!!!
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Thanks Fish Folk & MN-AQUARIST,
Seems like we are split down the middle still!!! I guess the best move currently is to do nothing and see what happens. He seems to be chasing the corys and pencil fish anytime they get near the fry or the female as she seems to not let him too close to the Fry but he does not seem to be trying to get closer either so maybe we have a good Dad here!!!!
Here are some picks of them just for some fun!!! As you can see Dad was not happy I got that close to the tank!!!
Thanks again to both of you...
Spencer
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HI Ram Lover,
I am glad they are doing better - is the temp higher in the 55 Gallon - just curious?
I had a tough time in the beginning with aquatic plants - I have always been good with house plants but struggled at first with aquatic plants.
You may be able to use the 15 gal to leave on though. I setup a 10 gallon bare bottom with a sponge filter and a cheap light I got for like $20.
I bought a bunch of plants I liked both easy and medium and put then in the tank for a few weeks and I just watched them. Any that converted without anything else from me I knew liked my water.
Some of the others that were not doing so well I bought little clay pots and put aqua soil in them and found which ones did better then and I knew then they could grow with soil/ferts in my water.
The ones that did not survive I knew it was not me, it was my water or that I would need a high-tech setup to even try to grow those.
I did that for about 6 months and tried new plants to replace the dead ones. Now I only keep ones that I know work with my water and if I use root tabs and ferts everything does really well as I did not want to get into the whole CO2 cost - maybe one day!!!!
Anyway - just an idea for a use for your 15 gallon and plants.
Take care,
Spencer
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Hi Everyone,
Quick Question - more of an opinion really.
I have just seen my female Apistogramma cacatuoides Double Red swimming around the tank with Fry. Both the male and female are being very aggressive to the 6x sterbai cory cats so I am going to try to catch them and remove them.
There are 6x pencil fish (3 stripe) that they seem to be ignoring but I am wondering if I should also pull the male.
In doing some research there seems to be a split camp on this if the male is parenting you should leave him in the tank and currently he is very focused on the corys but I am concerned if I remove the corys that he will stop protecting the fry the way he currently seems to be doing?
The Fry are free swimming and today is the first day I have noticed they had them. I have bred a lot of fish before but I am rather new (2 years) in regards to keeping Apistos.
Please let me know your opinion or if you have any questions. Thanks in advance for your help!!!!
Thanks,
Spencer
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On 3/7/2022 at 2:37 PM, HH Morant said:
Some deaths which are associated with water changes are due to occasional super-chlorination of tap water by municipalities. Although the usual chlorine content may be 1 ppm or less, under EPA rules the city water department can increase that to 4 ppm.
Water changes during the super-chlorination period can kill fish if a 4 X dose of de-chlorinator is not used.
See the aquariumscience.org article entitled "Chlorine and Chloramine."
I don't know if that is what happened in your case, but I doubt that a pH difference of the magnitude described would be fatal to fish. If the deaths were indeed caused by the water change, a few fish were apparently more susceptible than others, regardless of what attribute of the new water killed them.
Hi HH Morant - I always use Prime and actually de-chlorinate directly to the new water prior to adding it to the tank (still using buckets and water bottles). Because it is a liquid and I use small buckets/bottles it is always overdosed (Prime) because I cannot measure amounts that small. Thus, I would think if the water was 'super chlorinated' it would still manage that given the overdose.
I know that the chemical reaction of de-chlorination does produce small amounts of Ammonia so in theory this could cause more Ammonia than usual if it is super chlorinated even with Prime usage after 24hrs if not managed by bacteria in the tank.
Our Tap water does come from Lake Ontario so there could be something to the need to over-chlorinate if needed due to lake water origin
On 3/7/2022 at 2:31 PM, anewbie said:I doubt .2 would shock the fish.
Hi anewbie - that was what I was thinking too!!!
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Hi Ram lover,
Just wanted to check in - how are your 2 little guys doing?
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Ok - quick update - completed PH testing today prior to water change and there is definitely a .2 to .4 PH difference (depending on color difference interpretation of the API test kit) for the full soil planted tank so I only did 25% WC versus usual 50%.
Thoughts?
Would .2 to .4 PH difference be enough to stress/shock a betta or apistos?
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Hi Ram Lover,
Right off the bat I would say 71 is too cold for them. I keep all my Ram's between 77 and 84 as they are warm water fish for sure. When I did have a breeding pair of Bolivian Rams (which I believe is what you have from the picture) I kept them in a community tank at 77 degrees.
The only issue with the higher temps is you need to be careful if it is a community tank as some fish may not do great with higher temps. It also can shorten their life a bit overall as the warmer water speeds up their metabolism but I have found them to be a lot healthier and happy if kept in warmer water. I have found a lot of issues can be avoiding with keeping Rams at higher temps.
15 gallons is an ok size for them and 1-2 water changes a week will definitely help them at that tank size as not a lot of room for error, so you should be good there.
I assume the 20ppm of Nitrates is due to adding fertilizer (since you comment about adding Excel) so the live plants should eat that up but other than this it looks like your water parameters and maintenance schedule are great.
Personally, I have played a bit with Excel Flourish and I have not found it to do that much with browning of plants (I assume some Java Ferns in the tank) I also worry about it being a chemical that not a lot is known about so I choose to live with some brown or remove those leaves often as I have found new growth takes a bit before they brown. I do know Excel it is pretty controversial in the hobby so i would recommend use it with caution and do your research as there are a lot of pros and cons IMO.
Anyway, my recommendation would be to first start with determining what temperature the other fish you have in this tank can live at and see if we can move that up a bit (you will need to increase this slowly like 1degree per day at most if this is possible with your other fish)
I do not usually go right to medication in these situations but I am wondering since you said you got them about a month ago did you treat the tank with the Quarantine Trio when you got them? If not that might also be an option with the temp increase.
Or if you are willing to upset your plants a bit for a few weeks, I would use some salt in the tank (your plants will not like it but it is only for a short period of time and they usually recover just fine). I have found Salt and higher temps are the magic bullet when fish seem to have something off with them if caught earlier enough and it is easier than medication I believe on their livers.
I know I wrote a lot here and hopefully you find this helpful but if you have any further questions on this please just let me know.
Take care,
Spencer
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On 3/2/2022 at 4:16 PM, anewbie said:
If you use the same water at the same time for both the tanks with and without soil it is unlikely the water unless the soil tanks have leached and changed the tank chemistry. Another problem might be that you are disturbing the soil substrates and 'bad' bacteria is being released. I had this specific problem with a tank (it didn't have soil but it had a very fine substrate; i was able to reproduce the problem in another tank using the same substrate so i stopped using it and the problem went away).
Another thing is that if you do water changes weekly it could very well be unrelated to the water change itself.... esp if it is happening a few days after the water change as you stated. I think you said 4 days after the water change - something like ph shock would be more immediate.
Hi anewbie - that is the theory I am working on - not so much that my tap water is bad but the fact that the soil and leaf litter has changed the PH enough that a 20 - 50 percent water change has a such different PH and GH that it would cause shock.
To clarify when I say 4 days later that is time of death - the symptoms are noticed a day or so afterwards.
Also, tank size may be an issue in one of the tanks 8.6Gal planted (ADA 60-F) and standard 10gal planted but the leaf litter tank is a 25 gallon cube so 5 gallon water change for it really is only 20% the other 2 I do a approx 2-4 gallons each week.
the substrate disturbance is an interesting thought but would that only affect 1 fish?
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On 3/2/2022 at 3:43 PM, jwcarlson said:
What's your water's pH straight out of the tap vs in a cup (or some other container) left to age for a day? With an air stone if you can.
Hi JWCarlson - its 7.4-7.6 right out of the tap - after sitting in a bucket for a ~24 hours (no air-stone) it appears to be the same 7.4-7.6 color of the test is exactly the same its just the interpretation of the chart vs. color
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Thanks AndreaW - yes that was the plan for sure!!!
Just curious if anyone is aware of any specific illness that exhibits these exact symptoms if they are not water PH/Hardness related since it is only happening in soil or leaf litter tanks
thanks,
Spencer
Using RO/DI Water with African Cichlids
in General Discussion
Posted
Thanks Gannon - yes have both GH and KH drop test kits so we are good to go there. For sure will need to practice in 5 gallon buckets to get the formula just right!!!