[Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:45 PM, DShelton said:

Prime should only be added to fresh water during a water change.

 

What does your tap water look like? Is it known to have chlorine (hypochlorite), or chloramine? You do not have enough ammonia in the water to merit a water change IMO. A concentration of .25 ppm ammonia at a pH of 6.8 is not is not toxic to your fish. If it is chloramine, a water change only adds more ammonia to the tank (a product of the reaction between the dechlorinator and chloramine) and in an established tank this is absolutely no issue since the established bio filter sucks that ammonia up almost instantly. 

I would not a water change at this point.

 

The pH is fine. I would not chase any water chemistry. 

 

What is the pH of your tap water?

It has been 12 days and this is where I am at, and still totally at a loss.  

 

The pH of the water from the tap is reading 7.0 with the API master test kit.

The pH of the tank water has been reading 7.6 pretty consistently the pat 12 days.  When I test the High pH it is showing 7.4.

The ammonia has still not gotten over .25ppm.

Nitrite is still reading 0

Nitrate is still reading 0.

I have stopped adding prime to control ammonia based on your advice.  I did add prime to the tap water to do 1 25% water change after 1 week.  

I also did do 1 dose of the MicroBacter Start XLF to try and help the nitro cycle along.  I am not sure where to go from here.  

[Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:45 PM, DShelton said:

Prime should only be added to fresh water during a water change.

 

What does your tap water look like? Is it known to have chlorine (hypochlorite), or chloramine? You do not have enough ammonia in the water to merit a water change IMO. A concentration of .25 ppm ammonia at a pH of 6.8 is not is not toxic to your fish. If it is chloramine, a water change only adds more ammonia to the tank (a product of the reaction between the dechlorinator and chloramine) and in an established tank this is absolutely no issue since the established bio filter sucks that ammonia up almost instantly. 

I would not a water change at this point.

 

The pH is fine. I would not chase any water chemistry. 

 

What is the pH of your tap water?

So I found out that our water has chloramine.  I should still add prime to the tap water when it is time to do a water change, correct?

[Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:45 PM, DShelton said:

Prime should only be added to fresh water during a water change.

 

What does your tap water look like? Is it known to have chlorine (hypochlorite), or chloramine? You do not have enough ammonia in the water to merit a water change IMO. A concentration of .25 ppm ammonia at a pH of 6.8 is not is not toxic to your fish. If it is chloramine, a water change only adds more ammonia to the tank (a product of the reaction between the dechlorinator and chloramine) and in an established tank this is absolutely no issue since the established bio filter sucks that ammonia up almost instantly. 

I would not a water change at this point.

 

The pH is fine. I would not chase any water chemistry. 

 

What is the pH of your tap water?

At what point should I do a water change to help with the ammonia?  Should I just do water changes to control the ammonia and only use Prime if there is a big spike at this point?  Thank you for all of your help

[Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in]

2 hours ago, DShelton said:

With the pH less than 7, the ammonia (NH3) in the water is effectively all ammonium (NH4). Ammonium, while it will register with the API test kit as free ammonia is absolutely less toxic than free ammonia. A variety of factors will affect how much of the NH4 is free NH3 in solution, in an acidic pH, it will be between .1 and 1% of NH4 as NH3. In other words, your .25ppm "ammonia" as shown by the test kit, at your pH is less than 1% if that as free ammonia, and in an acid pH that amount of ammonia is non-toxic.

 

The prime is absolutely preventing your cycle from continuing. Prime (and other de-chlorinators for that matter) are reducing agents (usually sodium dithionite). Chemically they provide free electrons to Cl2 to "reduce" it to 2Cl-. The only way to "detoxify" ammonia is through oxidation, i.e. our friendly neighborhood nitrogen cycle that we are familiar with. By keeping the concentration of the reducing agent in the water very high, you are preventing the oxidative processes from taking hold, i.e. those Nitrobacter and Nitrosomas colonies from establishing themselves.

Sorry, as I may not understand this properly.  Should I stop using prime then to help the cycle along? 

 

At what point should I use prime in the process?  

Since I have not done a water change should I start back up doing regular 25% water changes since there is so much prime in the water?  

Shoukd I try to raise the pH?  

 

Thanks for all of the help.

 

[Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in]

3 hours ago, Patrick_G said:

How do you have the tank set up? What kind of substrate, what filtration and are there any live plants? The beneficial bacteria need places to live like the substrate and filter media, and the plants use up the Ammonia from the fish waste. 
Is there a local Facebook group for aquarium hobbyists in your area? You might be able to get some gravel or pre cycled filter media to get your cycle jump started. In the meantime some easy to grow plants will help with the Ammonia. Floating plants like Frogbit and Dwarf Water Lettuce work great and are easy to grow.  

 

3 hours ago, Lowells Fish Lab said:

Could I ask what kind of water test you use? I know "resetting" a cycle can happen if you change out too much water early on but I have such a hard time believing that there could be zero bacterial development after such a long time.

Just a couple of things that come to mind for me: is there a chance of false positives on the ammonia test because water is constantly being replaced with freshly dechlorinated water? Doesn't dechlorinator break chloramines down and release free ammonia/ammonium? 

Same with the nitrates. I went for weeks thinking I had zero nitrates till one day I reread the instructions on my API master test kit and found out I had been doing the test wrong the whole time.

If the situation is what it appears to be, I'm a fan of live plants, light feeding, and sometimes fritz turbo start to help cycle from a cold start.

14 hours ago, BIG GREEN said:

 

 Its never a good idea to do a fish in cycle for this very reason. A tank should always be cycled befor a wet pet is added to it.  If you have not done it, do a google on Fish-in cycle, it may give you the insight you need to help you cycle that tank.  

If your fish has fin rott, you might as well treat it with Mardel Maracyn , follow the direction to the letter.

If you ever you get the issues solved in your tank for your wet pet, look into indian almond leaves and betta fish.

Good luck

Yes, if we get another fish in the future that is what we will.do. At this point I am just trying to figure out why the jump from ammonia to nitrite is not occuring.  When I do the water changes the ammonia drops lower so in my mind if I do not back off on water changes then there is less ammonia to help the cycle along.  

Thanks everyone. I'm going to try to hit all the points right now. Up until 3 weeks ago I was doing two to three water changes of 25% a week. However I have not done one for a few weeks thinking that that could be diluting the ammonia too much and that's why the cycle was not starting. However even after 3 weeks the ammonia never gets above .25. I use an API Master test kit to take all of the readings. Some other groups online have pointed out about having to follow the nitrate test procedures precisely and I have done that as well but still I have never registered nitrite or nitrate.

 

As for surfaces for the bacteria to grow, I have standard aquarium gravel, then I did add a filter sponge over the water spout to control the current and then I also have the black sponge type filter that came with the aquarium.

 

The pH has been holding steady at 6.8 for a few months now.

 

I am just stuck because when I was doing regular water changes the cycle wasn't going and then when I stopped the water changes and just relied on the prime to control the ammonia it's just never got above .25.  

[Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in]

We are 4 months into a fish-in cycle for our 1 betta in a 5 gallon aquarium.  I posted awhile ago about a sudden pH drop and we have gotten that issue taken care of.  However, we have not ever registered nitrites or nitrates.  We use Prime daily for the ammonia, which has never risen above .25.  We have added API Quick Start and Brightwell MicroBacterStart XLF.  Our Betta's fin rot is progressing so we are getting desperate trying to figure out what to do.  Any advice is appreciated.

[Sudden pH drop in Betta aquarium]

So it has been about 2 weeks and I still have pH dropping especially after water changes.  Today's test is off the chart low.  I am also once again getting 0 ammonia, no nitrite, and no nitrate so no nitrogen cycle. Our tap water out of the tap is in the neutral range. After letting it sit 24 hours it is a bit lower, but nowhere as low as it is now.  

 

We have very hard water could that be having an effect?  I am just not sure what our options are at this point.  Any ideas are appreciated.

 

 

[Sudden pH drop in Betta aquarium]

21 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

Some questions:

Is your betta in this tank currently?

What is the tank size (in gallons or liters)?

What is your current method for filtration (hang on back, sponge filter, etc)?

What is the pH of your source water (tap)?

Have you measured the hardness measurement of your source water? (GH / KH)

Is there anything like an Indian Almond Leaf (catappa leaf), Alder cones, or other tannin-inducing agent in the tank? 

Are there any live plants in the tank?

 

(Now, please pardon me if this is all information you know already) -- pH is a measurement of (H+) hydrogen ions in a liquid. Hydrogen ions are looking for chemicals to  bond with. As this occurs, the things they bond with "break down" (which is why acid appears to "disintegrate" things it comes into contact with). Fish are found generally between 5.5 and 8.5. 7.0 pH is neutral. Below 7.0 is increasingly more acidic; above 7.0 is increasingly alkaline (base). Most commonly sold aquarium fish require a delicate balance somewhere more specifically between 6.5 and 8.0. Bettas, generally, like a neutral 7.0 pH - though they can be kept a bit more acid. When pH "crashes" -- meaning that it goes down suddenly, and precipitously (as you describe from 7.2 to 6.0), the reason is generally . . . different water parameters added . . . chemical reaction that increases acidity . . . some other major change that accounts for it. Another property of water is "hardness." There are several aspects to it -- Carbonate Hardness (KH) and General Hardness (GH). This refers to "buffer" minerals in your water that _prevent_ sudden pH changes. If you think of it as chemistry, the (H+) ions that either increase or decrease, have minerals in the water to carry out reactions upon. However, if you happen to have "soft" water -- with very little minerals -- you may have virtually no "buffer" minerals, in which case, once a process has worked through your minimal buffer, the pH can crash suddenly. For example, we recently has a tank we were breeding some bronze corydoras in. We added a bunch of alder cones and catappa leaves and wood. Bronze corys can handle low pH (Amazon fish often can). We added some Columbian Tetras. Found one of those dead a few days later . . . then another the next day . . . then we tested the water. The pH had crashed from 7.8 pH to unmeasurably low . . . ca. 5 pH (?!) Our water is soft, so the natural breakdown of the leaf litter, which produces humic acid, had worn through our minimal buffer, and crashed our pH entirely. We moved the Columbians Tetras to another aquarium, did a water change, and all is well. What you need to figure out is exactly what your tap water really is in terms of its pH. And, remember, that the chemistry of your water changes substantially once it "rests" for a day. If you test your water straight from the tap vs. testing it 24-48 hours later, you may find a fair bit of change. This is because a lot of gasses are compressed in the water -- as well as other chemicals -- which essentially "gas off" as the water rests. 

     As for the nitrogen cycle, you need to have a colony of beneficial bacteria built up that can work through the waste fish produce along with the decomposing uneaten foods. Basically, fish live inside their own toilet. So, the first thing that happens is a spike in ammonia (NH3). The bacteria colony initially converts this to the ionic composition (NO2-). Then after this, bacterial colonies convert nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is much less toxic to fish than Nitrite or Ammonia. If you have live plants, they'll slowly consume Nitrate and flourish. In fact, plant fertilizers (such as Aquarium Co-Op Easy Green) contain a fair bit of beneficial Nitrate along with other minerals plants require to thrive. So, if you're trying to determine whether your tank is cycled, you need to be sure that the bacteria colonies are in sufficient strength to transition Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate. Ideally, all that you'd really be reading is a steady increase in Nitrate. 

*sorry for the book* 🤓

 

So I let the tap water sit out since last night.  The pH is definitely lower after sitting than coming straight out of the tap.  However, the pH in the aquarium is still lower.  Ammonia is still at 0, but nitrite and nitrate are still showing 0 as well.  I have as yet to have any detectable nitrite so I am thinking the nitrogen cycle has still not started.  I have used Quick start intermittently, but Seachem Prime mostly.  The highest the ammonia ever got has been 2.0.  

 

Thank you for all of the info.  I do feel better about the pH as the drop has not been as drastic or fast as I first thought since the water has off gassed while in the aquarium.  However, should I be concerned since it is reading between 6.6 and 6.8?  

As for what we think is fin rot here is a pic.   The bottom looks more stingy towards the front.  Thanks again for all of the help!

[Sudden pH drop in Betta aquarium]

Hello, we have had our Betta for a little over 4 weeks now.  The pH had a rapid drop from 7.2 to about 6.  The aquarium is still cycling and the highest the ammonia has gotten was 2.0 and we have not detected nitrite yet.  Now the ammonia is reading 0.  We are using an API Master Test kit.  I did find some searching online and came across an ammonia trap, but I am still a bit confused about why pH would drop so much.  I did do a 50% water change yesterday, but the pH is still  below our regular 7.2 readings.  Should I continue regular water changes?  The complicating factor is that we just started treatment for mild fin rot and the instructions say not to change water until 7 days of treatment.  Any advice is appreciated.  Thank you!