[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/13/2022 at 4:28 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Good to know. Was I right about planting woes?

I'm used stratum in the 5g and it was a nightmare for anything carpeting or with short roots. It doesnt "hold" very well, which is why I want to cap with sand.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:57 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

With not having to spend money on lights, channel all those funds to a topnotch aqua soil, hard scape materials and plants. Shot for a minimum of 70% planted as a starting point. 

I'm still going to buy a light, lol. Is there much debate into ADA vs something like Stratum? Also, is there a soil that wont work its way up to the surface when capped with sand?

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

Let me try this a different way. Here is the Chihiros spectrum.

The WRGB2 PRO30 is 37w and can cover a 17" tank effectively. It costs $230.

Here is my personal reef light. Because marine lights generally use high quality single point of focus led clusters, with much fewer, but much more powerful leds, I can overdrive the green and red channels to pretty much match the Chihiros. The same is not true vice-versa, because it is a bar style light with weak, low watt leds. 

When I do this, I'm making around 20w of power, which is not as much as the Chihiros 37w, but because it's a wide angle single focus light, I actually have more coverage at 24" effectively, though slightly less par. 

Don't forget that the light itself is actually 60w total and can also be used as intended, as a reef light.

This is what I mean when I say that planted lights are lacking in price to performance, compared to their marine counterparts. 

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:45 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Animals vs plants. Now that's going to spur a conversation 😆. 

This is why freshwater planted tanks are superior to salt water. It's up to the aquarist to mange and arrange colors. See what I did there 😁.

This guy does it well.

We've got more in common than you think. You still have to arrange the corals in much the same way. Tall sticks in the back, shorter plating and encrusting corals in the front. Tell me this doesn't look familiar.😉

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:01 PM, gjcarew said:

This is the Ecotech Radion spectrum:

Compared to the Chihiros Vivid:

Highlighting greens and reds is a lot less of a requirement in a reef tank, just how super powerful blues and ultraviolet are pointless in a freshwater tank. They're just different. 

On principle, I try not to argue with people on the internet. I've made tanks like the one you want to try to emulate, which is why offered my $.02, but I'm not going to stick around if what you're looking for is a debate.

 

I don't think that anyone is debating that reef and planted tank lighting use different spectrums. I don't understand what led you to believe that this was my idea. All I said was that dollar for dollar, watt for watt, planted lights seem to be more expensive and lower quality compared to their reefing counterparts, except for the freshwater ones manufactured by reef lighting companies such as ecotech or kessil, where they are the same quality and priced the same.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:09 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

The Chihiros offering 33 watts isn't 500 dollars, the 570.00 option is 138 watts. And the 425.00 option is 110 watts. The 33 watts option is a bit over 200.00.

Ok, that's my fault. I thought that the description refreshed when selecting different models, but it does not. Only the price changes. 37w for around $200 is still a little underpowered imo but not at all outrageous.

On 12/13/2022 at 12:09 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Let's look at Kessil 360x, one for salt water, one for fresh. Same everything, one is just blue and one more red. Same price. Just different spectrum.

That's because it's already a high quality single point of focus light, with around 90w and 250 par output. There's really nothing to improve on other than just changing the spectrum.

On 12/12/2022 at 11:55 PM, gjcarew said:

It also seems to me that you have a wider variety of colors you may want to highlight in FW

Show me a crypt that looks like this and then we'll have that discussion 😆

[Is API general good for gill flukes ?]

If it is gill flukes, the most effective treatment is Praziquantel, which you can find under the name PraziPro by Hikari.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

Here is another question I just thought of. How important is flow in a planted tank? I know that you aim for 5-10x volume through filtration media for nitrifying bacteria, but I've seen several planted tanks utilizing powerheads. Is this just for managing detritus? I don't believe that FW fish can't handle large amounts of flow.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/12/2022 at 8:03 PM, Jungle Fan said:

alas they are used to making a big buck of those who are willing to shell out $300 to $400 for some fish.

Also, not to get into a fresh vs salt debate, but salt really isn't as expensive as people make it out to be. It's just that our top end is significantly higher, if that interests you. You could set up a 20g with 2 clowns, a goby, and a few soft corals for around $200. That's the tank, salt, hard scape, livestock, light, and powerheads. That's the cost of some of your higher end plants and half the cost of a FX6 canister filter.

On 12/12/2022 at 8:38 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

Again, I am no expert, but understanding what your plants need and how to give it to them, how to balance your tank, how much (if any C02) you need, what temps plants prefer, what fish you want to stock and do they eat plants, root feeder/column feeder/epiphytes/ etc. is more important than what light you get in my opinion. 

Believe me, I understand more than most.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/12/2022 at 8:03 PM, Jungle Fan said:

@RennjiDK Correct! However if you brought 700PAR to bear on freshwater plants you'd end up with a wonderful soup of green algae and tissue mush, would be nice if the modifications they make to the reef lights would bring the prices they charge down a bit, alas they are used to making a big buck of those who are willing to shell out $300 to $400 for some fish.

I understand what you're saying, but you may not be understanding me correctly so I'll try to reword it a different way. The difference between Chihiros $500 light and an Amazon Hygger planted tank light is that they've changed a few colored leds to create a different spectrum and added an app. The led's are the same. The technology is the same. It didn't cost them much in production to do this, but its 20x the cost. It's not a SW vs FW comparison. I'm just saying that when you pay 20x the cost in SW lighting, you get 20x the performance. If a company were trying to sell a SW light at $500 in the reefing world, with the same performance as a hygger marine led from amazon, they'd be bankrupt tomorrow. As far as melting plants with reef lights, I think I could definitely grow plants with one, given the correct spectrum and par, because even our amazon budget lights are adjustable by default 😄. The limiting factor there would be par, since our lights are 80% blue leds, but I feel pretty confident I could make at least 50 with the correct spectrum.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:34 PM, Jungle Fan said:

The big difference between Freshwater and Reef lights is the quality of light that makes the difference. For Freshwater plants  you need a lot more red and amber spectrum than in the general mix of harsh reef lights for coral, by the way on the AGA site you can find a slew of articles about the different types of lighting, and you can get as scientific as you like, there are some articles that go into dissertation level. 

That's far from the only difference. Yes It's a different spectrum, so you'll see lights like Kessil's tuna series, or Fluval's Planted/Marine lights in both FW and SW. They swap a few leds to make these spectrum changes. The real difference is in power (par) and price vs performance of what's being offered in the planted tank world. It's not uncommon for SW to have 400w+ above a tank, because SPS corals can require up to 700+ par. What I'm saying is that the top end of planted tank lights are just creating a more suitable spectrum, by changing a few leds, and charging a premium for it with no real increase in build costs or manufacturing.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

I wasn't even aware that Kessil and Ecotech made FW lights. I'll have to look into them. One thing I am noticing though about FW is that your lights....suck. Now I have no idea about lighting requirements for aquatic plants, but I do know quite a good deal about led lights. Lighting is just spectrum and par, both of which are measurable. Beyond that, its just build quality and ease of use that you're paying for. Even the Chihiros lights seem to be the same low watt leds used in every other strip light. It's 33w at almost $500usd. Unless there is something glaringly obvious I'm missing, it seems like you're being charged a 70% mark up for features like app controlled programmability, which come standard on even the cheapest reef lights. Not to mention the fact that they are 2-3x the wattage, gooseneck mounted pucks, and half the cost.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:26 PM, Patrick_G said:

Lights: I’ll also recommend the Chihiros WRGB II Pro series as a great light. I consider it the entry point into high end lighting and it’s a giant killer. The 90cm model is under $500. 
 

Algae: New freshwater tanks sometimes have a diatom bloom but it’s not inevitable and it’s easy to remove.

 

We also have chemicals like Easy Carbon that can help knock back a stubborn infestation while you figure out the root cause of the problem. 

Well it looks like a found a light since it keeps getting recommended

Diatoms are not really a concern of mine, being that they are usually limited to the finite amount of silica in the tank. I've never seen them last more than a couple weeks at most before starving off.

I already dose glutaraldehyde on occasion.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, Patrick_G said:

Thoughts on your 5 gallon betta tank:

In planted tank it’s usually a good idea to have a decent amount of NO3 since that’s the main macronutrient for your plants. Even though it seems counterintuitive it will actually help your plants grow faster and outcompete the algae. I see some Leaf Zone in the pic. I’m guessing you’re adding that because it’s NO3 free and that’s ok but a comprehensive fertilizer will work better. In this  tank I would try 6 hours of light at a medium intensity, dose with Easy Green until you hit about 20 ppm NO3 and add some fast growing plants. It should also be easy to remove the existing algae with a toothbrush. 

Thanks for the advice. I'm actually dosing easy green (the leaf zone is old), though no were near 20ppm. Substrate is Stratum and I added maybe 6 root tabs when I planted. I keep the lighting around 6 hours a day as my light is a cheap non-controllable amazon light (maybe hygger?). I'll bump up the NO3 and see if things improve.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:42 PM, gjcarew said:

If you want to get in to the high-tech side of things, I highly recommend The 2 Hr Aquarist. Here's a link to his article on algae control. You can find links to all your other questions at the bottom of that page. I would recommend sticking to that as a 'Source of Truth' so you don't get overwhelmed with conflicting internet advice. 

Lighting: Chihiros has recently gotten more popular, otherwise the Fluval 3.0 is one many people use around here. Both have apps that let you adjust light intensity. 
CO2: You can inject into the sump with a diffuser or reactor, I know of at least one guy who injects it directly into his return pump. I haven't tried it but the Aquarium Co-op regulator seems like a screaming deal.
Nutrients: This is a complicated one and unfortunately the answer is 'it depends.' If it's your first tank it's probably best to stick to an all-in-one fertilizer. Again, check out the 2 Hr Aquarist for more info on nutrient levels and CO2 in a high-tech planted tank.

Algae control largely consists of manipulating the above parameters to achieve the mythical 'balanced tank'.

 

Thanks for the link! I was surprised to see a planted tank under such high par, especially a "low light plant" like buce.

[New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.]

Hello! I am new to this forum, but not to the Aquarium Co-op world. I've watched Cory's videos for years and even have a 5g planted betta tank. I am extremely knowledgeable about the SW world, but never managed to find success in FW plants, so I have a few questions. I plan on setting up a 36" 30g rimless AIO, and hopefully end up with something like the reference picture I've attached to this post.

LIGHTING: What is the correct par and spectrum for aquatic plants? I realize this maybe a loaded question as there are highlight and low light plants, but in general, what would be a happy middle ground for both. Can anyone recommend a light? Not a budget light, but a good quality one that fits the above spectrum and par with build quality behind it (believe me, you're not even going to come close to what a budget SW light costs).

CO2: Does this need to be injected directly into the display, or can it be diffused in the sump, behind the return pump? Again, an recommendations on a regulator/diffuser kit?

NUTRIENTS: What are good levels of macro nutrients to aim for? Is there anything I should monitor beyond NO3 and PO4? Which Micro nutrients do plants consume? Is there anything which is only replaced via WC, or would I be successful in just setting up a dosing pump with a product like Easy Green? Do WCs play any roll other than nutrient export in FW?

MICRO ALGAE: Here's where we have some overlap. What forms of algae control are available in the FW world? Is it just limited to nutrient management and Cuc? My 5g is overrun with pond snails and Amano Shrimp, but I still have algae growth despite near undetectable levels of NO3. I dose glutaraldehyde on occasion, but even that doesn't seem to make much of a difference. In SW, micro algae is a basically non-existent, as it's out competed by a diverse microbiome of bacteria, micro-crustations, and decorative micro-algaes like coralline. Not having an overrun algae farm is my number one concern with this build.