Trio of meds + shrimp?

[tank_lover]

I just stocked a freshly cycled 20 gallon planted tank with three dumbo guppies, one lively panda garra, and 10 shrimp -- 5 baby amano and 5 baby cherry.  First time this tank has had anything in it other than the hitchiking bladder snails from the plants.

One of the guppies was weaker than the other two from day one (Thursday).  I thought maybe it was stress, so I left it alone, but it didn't get any better the next day (Friday).  If anything, it looked worse.  On Saturday, I put it in a newly set up hospital tank.  I didn't have any meds, so I dosed the tank with aquarium salt, which I did have.  The guppy continued to decline on Saturday, developing pink-ish red spots along its body.  Google told me the red might be an ammonia burn, but my API master test kit AND API ammonia strip test both said that the ammonia inside the hospital tank was at 0 (the water test was hard to distinguish between 0 and 0.25, but it was more yellow than green).  Just to be safe, I did a 20% water change in the hospital tank early Sunday afternoon anyway.  In retrospect, I think the water change might have been a mistake, because the sick guppy took a nose dive right after that -- literally and figuratively.  The water change was about 12pm on Sunday; the guppy was dead by 4pm.  😞

Alright.  Now to my main question.  Of the three remaining fish -- two more dumbo guppies and a panda garra, the panda and one of the guppies seem totally happy and healthy, very lively.  But the last guppy doesn't seem very strong.  He's still swimming around, but sometimes (maybe 30% of the time?) he acts pretty lethargic.  He also had a poop earlier today that he looked like he was having trouble passing, like he was constipated, and one of his front fins is split up its center.  I'm considering moving him into the hospital tank, which is still dosed with salt, but what if there really was some kind of water parameter problem with that tank that made the dead guppy worse?  The water came directly from my 20 gallon tank straight into the hospital tank, and my readings all seemed good and were taken right before I set up the hospital tank (I will put the numbers at the bottom in case you're interested).

I ordered the trio of medications that Aquarium Co-Op recommends (first-time customer; thanks, Aquarium Co-Op!).  My main question is:  Can I / should I dose the whole 20 gallon tank with the three meds when they arrive?  But if I do... will it hurt the shrimp?  Alternatively, should I move the weaker guppy into the hospital tank and dose just that tank?  OR, should I just leave the weaker one be for now and give him a chance to rest without me bothering him?

 

Water parameters:

ph = 7.4 - 7.6

Ammonia = 0 - 0.25

Nitrite = 0

Nitrate = 0

kh = 3 degrees / 53.7

gh = 7 degrees / 125.3

Calcium = 40

[tank_lover]

Sorry, just to clarify by "trio of medications," I mean Ich-X, Fritz ParaCleanse, and Mardel Maracyn.

[Mmiller2001]

Since you ruled out ammonia burns, it's safe to say it is/ was hemorrhagic septicemia. I would move all the fish to QT and med trio them. While all fish are in QT (4 weeks), the display should clear anything that was introduced by the fish. Shrimp and fish don't share disease. 

I would modify the trio. Internal bacterial infections are killers. So I would start with maracyn per directions on the box. But personally, I would do Kanaplex, given orally via food. However, that's most likely not an option in your case. After the maracyn, then does ich x and Paracleanse per the co-op's instructions at the same time.

[Trish]

Getting down to basics,  there's a large chance your tank isn't really cycled yet with the parameters you've given, you should hav 0-.25ppm Ammonia, 0 Nitrites and at least 5-20ppm Nitrates.  Nor would your quarantine be cycled if this is the case, so your fish might be getting stressed by this. 

Shrimp like established tanks as they are very sensitive to any parameter changes ie" water, temperature,  so if your tank is not balanced yet with bacteria or bio film, very important.  If you end up having to do water changes while trying to get to a full cycle, your shrimp probably won't tolerate larger exchanges needed,  as at the best of times shrimp do better with only a 10% water change.  Too much to often will result in molting problems and death.  

Edited April 5, 2021 by Trish

[tank_lover]

MMiller and Trish, thanks for replying! Two very different diagnoses. 🤔

Mmiller’s diagnosis makes sense, as when I looked up the condition you mentioned, the pictures match what I saw in my poor dead guppy better than anything else I have seen (photos attached). However, Trish’s diagnosis also makes sense, as I had a nitrate reading of zero as of 4/3. Instructions say that using an old filter from an established tank takes about a week, and today marks one week exactly since I added the old filter. 
 

My best guess is that you’re both right: a tank not fully cycled adding stress and lowering immune system leading to an opportunistic disease. 
 

Now the question is what to do with the meds once they show up. I have my lethargic guppy in isolation, but he has zero red spots like the other (dead) fish. He just looks... tired, like a wilting flower.  My other two fish and all the shrimp are still happily doing their thing in the main tank, and I don’t want to “fix” something not broken. 
 

What to do next? Follow MMiller’s prescription?? Water change = yes or no???

[Mmiller2001]

Seems like the emergency might be over. For me, in your situation, I'd dose Paracleanse or API General Cure and start researching the ideal water parameters for those types of fish. I think guppies are hard water fish, but I've never kept them. I would start, very slowly, adding GH and KH to the tank. I would go by .75 increments every 3 days until I reach ideal conditions. 

If I could match "best conditions", I would be able to conclude it's a problem with disease.

[Mmiller2001]

17 minutes ago, tank_lover said:

MMiller and Trish, thanks for replying! Two very different diagnoses. 🤔

Mmiller’s diagnosis makes sense, as when I looked up the condition you mentioned, the pictures match what I saw in my poor dead guppy better than anything else I have seen (photos attached). However, Trish’s diagnosis also makes sense, as I had a nitrate reading of zero as of 4/3. Instructions say that using an old filter from an established tank takes about a week, and today marks one week exactly since I added the old filter. 
 

My best guess is that you’re both right: a tank not fully cycled adding stress and lowering immune system leading to an opportunistic disease. 
 

Now the question is what to do with the meds once they show up. I have my lethargic guppy in isolation, but he has zero red spots like the other (dead) fish. He just looks... tired, like a wilting flower.  My other two fish and all the shrimp are still happily doing their thing in the main tank, and I don’t want to “fix” something not broken. 
 

What to do next? Follow MMiller’s prescription?? Water change = yes or no???

Those bellies look bloated. I see some infection too. I'm still confident antibiotic is needed and parasite treatment.

I'd also do daily small water changes. After med treatment.

[tank_lover]

Sadly, the second guppy died today. Weirdly, he had no red marks at all and he seemed so-so, but then he died kind of all at once, from swimming lethargically around to belly up on the bottom of the tank. His belly was also bloated. 😔
 

The guppy and panda garra in the main tank are still 100% fine. And I don’t want to mess them up by treating them with meds, especially since the shrimp are in there.

 

I think next batch (which I won’t get anytime soon!), I will...

1) definitely quarantine all newcomers

2) make absolutely sure the quarantine tank is cycled

3) treat everyone with meds and leave them for a minimum of a week before moving into the main tank. 

[Mmiller2001]

2 hours ago, tank_lover said:

Sadly, the second guppy died today. Weirdly, he had no red marks at all and he seemed so-so, but then he died kind of all at once, from swimming lethargically around to belly up on the bottom of the tank. His belly was also bloated. 😔
 

The guppy and panda garra in the main tank are still 100% fine. And I don’t want to mess them up by treating them with meds, especially since the shrimp are in there.

 

I think next batch (which I won’t get anytime soon!), I will...

1) definitely quarantine all newcomers

2) make absolutely sure the quarantine tank is cycled

3) treat everyone with meds and leave them for a minimum of a week before moving into the main tank. 

The med trio is shrimp safe fyi.

Yeah, that's the tricky part, internal bacterial infections don't always show marks and can be tricky to diagnose. You most likely had both things going on, in my opinion.