I killed my tank!😢

[Rhonda]

8 hours ago, Jungle Fan said:

It happened to me once when I first started messing with regulators with one of the old single stage Milwaukee CO2 regulators; it's the reason why I now don't recommend any of the small paintball CO2 regulator systems, single stage regulators, or El Cheapo systems of unknown manufacture,  with no, or dubious warranties. I still remember how upset I was over losing my prized fish, some that were pets really and long term friends. Back then I was just trying to save a few bucks, in hindsight losing my fish cost me a lot more dearly than if I had put the couple of extra bucks aside and waited a few more months

With both Green Leaf Aquariums, and CO2Art  I have never heard about end of tank dump occurring, and I know Green Leaf Aquariums from personal experience with customer service and their lifetime warranty. With anything that has a needle valve it is likely that one might need to make use of warranty sooner, or later and I'd rather it be here in the U.S. when I do need it than overseas. That said CO2Art also has quality dual stage regulators and as a German company that worries about its hard earned reputation not just here in the U.S. but Germany as well they would be my second choice for a reliable regulator.

 

It is a dual stage regulator, and I didn’t think $200 was a cheap option, but based on some of the comments, I guess it is a bad company with bad products.  I just didn’t want to spend $800 for something that turned out to be more difficult to manage than I could work with.  I wanted a complete system, that wasn’t disposable so I could learn how to use it.  I’m pretty disappointed in my mistake.  I’ll look for one of the other company products you mentioned. Thanks.

[gardenman]

Most CO2 regulators rely on a needle valve to control the flow of CO2 and they work okay as long as the pressure in the atmosphere and the tank stay where they were when you set things up. When the pressure on one side or the other of the needle valve changes, so does the release rate. This results in CO2 dumping which as you've discovered is a very bad thing. If it was a bright sunny day with high atmospheric pressure when you installed the CO2 regulator and then a big storm front swept through with very low atmospheric pressure, it would alter the flow rate of CO2. There's a regulator called CarbonDoser that uses an electronic valve that opens and closes many times a second and isn't reliant on the pressure on either side. It supposedly eliminates the risk of CO2 dumping. It's a bit pricey at $400, but if you're going the CO2 injection route, it might be a worthwhile investment. 

[Mmiller2001]

8 hours ago, Rhonda said:

It is a dual stage regulator, and I didn’t think $200 was a cheap option, but based on some of the comments, I guess it is a bad company with bad products.  I just didn’t want to spend $800 for something that turned out to be more difficult to manage than I could work with.  I wanted a complete system, that wasn’t disposable so I could learn how to use it.  I’m pretty disappointed in my mistake.  I’ll look for one of the other company products you mentioned. Thanks.

Here's a complete kit that's a solid entry level product. My only complaint is the needle valve. It's very sensitive. A bit too sensitive. That said, I dailed in co2 in 2 days. I bought a 10 pound tank for 120.00 at my local brewery shop. 5 pound tanks were 85.00. that's sub 400.00.

https://www.co2art.us/collections/complete-kits/products/pro-se-series-complete-aquarium-co2-system-with-in-tank-flux_-diffuser

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Mmiller2001

[Rhonda]

2 hours ago, gardenman said:

Most CO2 regulators rely on a needle valve to control the flow of CO2 and they work okay as long as the pressure in the atmosphere and the tank stay where they were when you set things up. When the pressure on one side or the other of the needle valve changes, so does the release rate. This results in CO2 dumping which as you've discovered is a very bad thing. If it was a bright sunny day with high atmospheric pressure when you installed the CO2 regulator and then a big storm front swept through with very low atmospheric pressure, it would alter the flow rate of CO2. There's a regulator called CarbonDoser that uses an electronic valve that opens and closes many times a second and isn't reliant on the pressure on either side. It supposedly eliminates the risk of CO2 dumping. It's a bit pricey at $400, but if you're going the CO2 injection route, it might be a worthwhile investment. 

I didn’t realize the atmospheric pressure would affect the flow rate of CO2.  That seems really dangerous for anyone using CO2, not just aquarists.  I don’t think that was the issue in my case though.  The weather was about the same for the 3 days it ran.

thanks for the info!

[Rhonda]

43 minutes ago, Mmiller2001 said:

Here's a complete kit that's a solid entry level product. My only complaint is the needle valve. It's very sensitive. A bit too sensitive. That said, I dailed in co2 in 2 days. I bought a 10 pound tank for 120.00 at my local brewery shop. 5 pound tanks were 85.00. that's sub 400.00.

https://www.co2art.us/collections/complete-kits/products/pro-se-series-complete-aquarium-co2-system-with-in-tank-flux_-diffuser

 

I was looking at this one last night.  In fact it’s in my “virtual cart”.  I went to a local brewery yesterday and showed them my tank, I knew it was the same threading as a paintball tank, but no one will fill it.  They  have 5 lb tanks for $95 with an exchange system.  I will probably go that route.  I know you said you use COArt2 equipment, have you had any issues with their products?

thanks

[Mmiller2001]

36 minutes ago, Rhonda said:

I was looking at this one last night.  In fact it’s in my “virtual cart”.  I went to a local brewery yesterday and showed them my tank, I knew it was the same threading as a paintball tank, but no one will fill it.  They  have 5 lb tanks for $95 with an exchange system.  I will probably go that route.  I know you said you use COArt2 equipment, have you had any issues with their products?

thanks

Non so far. I've been running 2 of them since June 2020. My only complaint is the sensitivity of the needle valve. But it's been set all this time and it's 100% consistent so far. If you want to look at a step up, look at Green Leaf Aquariums. They have excellent regulators for just a bit more. But I stand behind CO2Art.

[Tanked]

Sorry to hear about your fish Rhonda.

Rhonda's experience and the replies posted here just reinforces my decision to stay as close to low tech or no tech as I can.

[Ryan W]

If you can, I’d return the ista and get a refund and then put that $200 towards a GLA regulator. They sell one for $150. Then, get a 5lb co2 cylinder for about $100-$125 from a welding supply shop. I use AirGas. Purity Gas is another one that’s local to me. Going this route (or any route that involves an industry standard CGA-320 co2 cylinder) not only can provide you with a larger co2 cylinder but makes it much easier and cheaper to exchange that cylinder when it’s empty. A 5lb co2 cylinder swap in my area is about $20-$25 and will last anywhere from 6-12 months for me (depending on bubble rate). 

Plug it all into a cheap mechanical timer. Go online if needed and get a decently cheap diffuser and drop checker. Call it a day. Regular air line hosing will work to get you started if “Co2 proof” tubing isn’t in the budget at the moment.

Products like Ista’s are a grey area for me. It’s a great idea to get people into co2 at a decent price but ultimately it’s a disposable system. It’s one of those things that gets slowly replaced/upgraded one part at a time that by the time it’s stable, you aren’t even using any of the original parts from the kit anymore. That process has unfortunate already started with your situation with a regulator issue. Then the next issue will be when you run out of co2. It does look like the Ista uses a standard CGA-320 fitting but not everyone that sells co2 actually refills the cylinder itself. They swap the empty cylinder for a full one. Nobody is going to accept that Ista tank as an exchange because they can’t do anything with it. So, you’ll be forced to buy a standard co2 cylinder that can be exchanged in the future. So, now you have a better regulator AND a better cylinder. Where does that leave the Ista? In the garbage...

Don’t let this discourage you if you really want to dive into co2. Chalk it up to a learning experience. It happens and that’s ok. That’s how we progress :)

Also, anyone getting into co2 that buys a brand new shiny aluminum co2 cylinder online is going to be upset when they have to exchange it for 10 year old dingy grey one. If you are wanting to buy a shiny new tank, make sure there is someone in your area that can actually refill it instead of exchanging it. For this, one would probably have better luck at a beverage supply/brewery places.

For most of the above reasons, in 2021, I would also advise against a “paintball cylinder” setup unless you have a reliable refilling station. With paintball, that hobby has been switching to pressurized air rather than co2 and over the last 5 years it’s becoming ever more difficult to find a reliable supply of co2 or people that actually refill cylinders don’t usually have the correct fitting adapters to do it properly, safety, or legally (that is the case in my area anyways).

Oh, another “oddball” location that may refill co2 cylinders is an Amish supply store. If your area has a prominent Amish community, they use co2 for welding. They may be able to refill a CGA-320 fitted cylinder (like I believe your ista to be). They also love beer and it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of them were into homebrew. What I’m getting at is the Amish can be an often overlooked resource, if they are prominent in your area, especially when it comes to things like co2.

Most importantly, HAVE FUN and try not to stress out too much over this stuff. Go slow, document changes, learn something, and enjoy yourself!

[Rhonda]

2 hours ago, Tanked said:

Sorry to hear about your fish Rhonda.

Rhonda's experience and the replies posted here just reinforces my decision to stay as close to low tech or no tech as I can.

As I get more "adventurous" I am making mistakes, but none this drastic.  I feel pretty confident that the mistake I made here was buying a bad system.  I read everywhere and watched sooo many videos that said "don't go cheap", my ignorance of trusted companies is where I failed.  This is why I won't buy anything live online - I don't know who to trust.  I got really lucky when I found Aquarium Coop and realized the store wasn't too far from me.  There is only one other non pet chain store near that I know of and I was really unhappy with some of the fish I bought there.  So I will drive an extra 90 minutes just to get pretty much everything from Aquarium Coop.  If they had a Co2 set up - I would have bought it there.

[Mmiller2001]

5 minutes ago, Rhonda said:

As I get more "adventurous" I am making mistakes, but none this drastic.  I feel pretty confident that the mistake I made here was buying a bad system.  I read everywhere and watched sooo many videos that said "don't go cheap", my ignorance of trusted companies is where I failed.  This is why I won't buy anything live online - I don't know who to trust.  I got really lucky when I found Aquarium Coop and realized the store wasn't too far from me.  There is only one other non pet chain store near that I know of and I was really unhappy with some of the fish I bought there.  So I will drive an extra 90 minutes just to get pretty much everything from Aquarium Coop.  If they had a Co2 set up - I would have bought it there.

I'm guilty of this too. I'm very strict with myself now. I killed 30 Panda Corys in on shot. Then ordered another 30 fish and all ammonia burned. Euthanized them all. Big lessons.

[Rhonda]

1 hour ago, Ryan W said:

If you can, I’d return the ista and get a refund and then put that $200 towards a GLA regulator. They sell one for $150. Then, get a 5lb co2 cylinder for about $100-$125 from a welding supply shop. I use AirGas. Purity Gas is another one that’s local to me. Going this route (or any route that involves an industry standard CGA-320 co2 cylinder) not only can provide you with a larger co2 cylinder but makes it much easier and cheaper to exchange that cylinder when it’s empty. A 5lb co2 cylinder swap in my area is about $20-$25 and will last anywhere from 6-12 months for me (depending on bubble rate). 

Plug it all into a cheap mechanical timer. Go online if needed and get a decently cheap diffuser and drop checker. Call it a day. Regular air line hosing will work to get you started if “Co2 proof” tubing isn’t in the budget at the moment.

Products like Ista’s are a grey area for me. It’s a great idea to get people into co2 at a decent price but ultimately it’s a disposable system. It’s one of those things that gets slowly replaced/upgraded one part at a time that by the time it’s stable, you aren’t even using any of the original parts from the kit anymore. That process has unfortunate already started with your situation with a regulator issue. Then the next issue will be when you run out of co2. It does look like the Ista uses a standard CGA-320 fitting but not everyone that sells co2 actually refills the cylinder itself. They swap the empty cylinder for a full one. Nobody is going to accept that Ista tank as an exchange because they can’t do anything with it. So, you’ll be forced to buy a standard co2 cylinder that can be exchanged in the future. So, now you have a better regulator AND a better cylinder. Where does that leave the Ista? In the garbage...

Don’t let this discourage you if you really want to dive into co2. Chalk it up to a learning experience. It happens and that’s ok. That’s how we progress 🙂

Also, anyone getting into co2 that buys a brand new shiny aluminum co2 cylinder online is going to be upset when they have to exchange it for 10 year old dingy grey one. If you are wanting to buy a shiny new tank, make sure there is someone in your area that can actually refill it instead of exchanging it. For this, one would probably have better luck at a beverage supply/brewery places.

For most of the above reasons, in 2021, I would also advise against a “paintball cylinder” setup unless you have a reliable refilling station. With paintball, that hobby has been switching to pressurized air rather than co2 and over the last 5 years it’s becoming ever more difficult to find a reliable supply of co2 or people that actually refill cylinders don’t usually have the correct fitting adapters to do it properly, safety, or legally (that is the case in my area anyways).

Oh, another “oddball” location that may refill co2 cylinders is an Amish supply store. If your area has a prominent Amish community, they use co2 for welding. They may be able to refill a CGA-320 fitted cylinder (like I believe your ista to be). They also love beer and it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of them were into homebrew. What I’m getting at is the Amish can be an often overlooked resource, if they are prominent in your area, especially when it comes to things like co2.

Most importantly, HAVE FUN and try not to stress out too much over this stuff. Go slow, document changes, learn something, and enjoy yourself!

Thanks.  I have a feeling I won't be able to return the system, but I'll see what customer service says.  Either way, I don't want to give up on using Co2.  There is a brewery supply store not far from me that does tank exchange, so I think that will be my best option.  As for the regulator, I will look further into the difference between Co2art and GLA and get one of their regulators.  My son built his own computer because he knew each piece that he wanted to make it the "perfect" system for him.  I feel like that's what I need to do, I just don't know the best of each part.  I know the regulator is the most important piece for sure!

Thanks again.

[Jungle Fan]

17 hours ago, Rhonda said:

It is a dual stage regulator, and I didn’t think $200 was a cheap option, but based on some of the comments, I guess it is a bad company with bad products.  I just didn’t want to spend $800 for something that turned out to be more difficult to manage than I could work with.  I wanted a complete system, that wasn’t disposable so I could learn how to use it.  I’m pretty disappointed in my mistake.  I’ll look for one of the other company products you mentioned. Thanks.

@Rhondain all my time using CO2 I have noticed that a good many companies capitalize on the fact that there are a few companies out there that actually produce a good quality dual stage regulator, those opportunists in turn will try to imitate those dual stage regulators as much as they can and then market their product as a 'dual gauge' regulator.

This is factually correct because they sport two gauges for the high pressure in the cylinder, and another for the working pressure, the pressure with which the CO2 is supposed to be released into the tank, further dialed in by the needle valve; however it says nothing about them actually employing dual valves that guarantee a continued steady release pressure of CO2 in gaseous form when the tank nears its end.

Beginners usually don't understand the difference between the term dual gauge and dual stage and will buy the product because it looks like a higher priced actual dual stage CO2 reactor and is usually around $100 cheaper thinking they got a great deal.

The same goes for the needle valves, there is a huge difference in types and quality of needle valves on the market. Some are prone to fail, and others last a very long time. Unfortunately we don't have a type of aquatic consumer report, so our main source of information are each others reports of what worked for us, and what failed.

My worst disaster was the one I previously described with a single stage CO2 regulator, and much as I hate to admit it while I was still in my pressurized CO2 learning phase I got duped once more by a cheap overseas produced 'dual gauge' CO2 regulator, which happened to be nothing but another single stage CO2 regulator under different label, that time I lost not quite as many fish as the first time. I also later  had a carbon doser CO2 regulator,which when they first came out was marketed as electronic CO2 regulator, that one also failed because of the needle valve control and I wasn't impressed with the warranty.

It was then that I decided to buy a Green Leaf Aquariums dual stage regulator, and I haven't had any issue in years, I have seen their warranty in action, only for minor issues but it was never a problem. I have had questions answered in a more than timely manner, and in courteous fashion.

I no longer recommend regulators because they fit a budget because I have experienced for myself how much money I wasted as my 'apprenticeship money' learning that way. I don't recommend what I would under no circumstances ever use again, and in all the variants on the market the only reliably working brands I've seen are the GLA, and CO2Art, that doesn't mean there might not be others out there, it just means that if there are I don't have knowledge,or experience with them.

Here are some links that might shine a bit more light on the subject, it even has links to building a DIY regulator from quality parts for those who are savvy enough to do so. Sorry this got so long but my past experience with shoddy CO2 regulators and your heartbreaking story prompted this.

http://scapefu.com/co2-regulators-explained-scapefu034/

https://aquanswers.com/best-co2-regulator-aquarium-stable-planted/#single-or-dual-stage

https://www.compgasspecialtygas.com/faq/what-is-the-difference-between-a-single-stage-and-a-dual-stage-regulator

Edited April 4, 2021 by Jungle Fan

[Rhonda]

1 hour ago, Jungle Fan said:

@Rhondain all my time using CO2 I have noticed that a good many companies capitalize on the fact that there are a few companies out there that actually produce a good quality dual stage regulator, those opportunists in turn will try to imitate those dual stage regulators as much as they can and then market their product as a 'dual gauge' regulator.

This is factually correct because they sport two gauges for the high pressure in the cylinder, and another for the working pressure, the pressure with which the CO2 is supposed to be released into the tank, further dialed in by the needle valve; however it says nothing about them actually employing dual valves that guarantee a continued steady release pressure of CO2 in gaseous form when the tank nears its end.

Beginners usually don't understand the difference between the term dual gauge and dual stage and will buy the product because it looks like a higher priced actual dual stage CO2 reactor and is usually around $100 cheaper thinking they got a great deal.

The same goes for the needle valves, there is a huge difference in types and quality of needle valves on the market. Some are prone to fail, and others last a very long time. Unfortunately we don't have a type of aquatic consumer report, so our main source of information are each others reports of what worked for us, and what failed.

My worst disaster was the one I previously described with a single stage CO2 regulator, and much as I hate to admit it while I was still in my pressurized CO2 learning phase I got duped once more buy a cheap overseas produced 'dual gauge' CO2 regulator, which happened to be nothing but another single stage CO2 regulator under different label, that time I lost not quite as many fish as the first time. I also later  had a carbon doser CO2 regulator,which when they first came out was marketed as electronic CO2 regulator, that one also failed because of the needle valve control and I wasn't impressed with the warranty.

It was then that I decided to buy a Green Leaf Aquariums dual stage regulator, and I haven't had any issue in years, I have seen their warranty in action, only for minor issues but it was never a problem. I have had questions answered in a more than timely manner, and in courteous fashion.

I no longer recommend regulators because they fit a budget because I have experienced for myself how much money I wasted as my 'apprenticeship money' learning that way. I don't recommend what I would under no circumstances ever use again, and in all the variants on the market the only reliably working brands I've seen are the GLA, and CO2Art, that doesn't mean there might not be others out there, it just means that if there are I don't have knowledge,or experience with them.

Here are some links that might shine a bit more light on the subject, it even has links to building a DIY regulator from quality parts for those who are savvy enough to do so. Sorry this got so long but my past experience with shoddy CO2 regulators and your heartbreaking story prompted this.

http://scapefu.com/co2-regulators-explained-scapefu034/

https://aquanswers.com/best-co2-regulator-aquarium-stable-planted/#single-or-dual-stage

https://www.compgasspecialtygas.com/faq/what-is-the-difference-between-a-single-stage-and-a-dual-stage-regulator

Wow, thanks for such great information.  The unfortunate part is I don't know what I don't know. (If that makes sense)  When everything seems to make sense there is always something more that I didn't know to ask.  We never stop learning something new!

 

[Rhonda]

3 hours ago, Mmiller2001 said:

I'm guilty of this too. I'm very strict with myself now. I killed 30 Panda Corys in on shot. Then ordered another 30 fish and all ammonia burned. Euthanized them all. Big lessons.

I prefer to not have lessons related to killing my fish, but a lesson is a lesson! I ordered a GLA regulator and will make sure I can run it and THEN get more fish.  Thanks!

[Jungle Fan]

I know, and I hate this aspect of learning in our hobby in that regard because there are people out there who don't care that our pets can die over their little ways to deceive us, even though it's legal I still consider it deception. I've been keeping fish since 1968 and I'm still learning and will keep doing so until I'm gone, it's just the mistakes where you feel you were duped that are hard to deal with. Whenever you want some help with something you're not sure about it's a good idea to post on this forum. You'll get a better idea of what questions to ask, and someone might have experience with exactly the same item.

[Mmiller2001]

36 minutes ago, Rhonda said:

I prefer to not have lessons related to killing my fish, but a lesson is a lesson! I ordered a GLA regulator and will make sure I can run it and THEN get more fish.  Thanks!

You are going to love it!

[Anita]

5 hours ago, Jungle Fan said:

@Rhondain all my time using CO2 I have noticed that a good many companies capitalize on the fact that there are a few companies out there that actually produce a good quality dual stage regulator, those opportunists in turn will try to imitate those dual stage regulators as much as they can and then market their product as a 'dual gauge' regulator.

This is factually correct because they sport two gauges for the high pressure in the cylinder, and another for the working pressure, the pressure with which the CO2 is supposed to be released into the tank, further dialed in by the needle valve; however it says nothing about them actually employing dual valves that guarantee a continued steady release pressure of CO2 in gaseous form when the tank nears its end.

Beginners usually don't understand the difference between the term dual gauge and dual stage and will buy the product because it looks like a higher priced actual dual stage CO2 reactor and is usually around $100 cheaper thinking they got a great deal.

The same goes for the needle valves, there is a huge difference in types and quality of needle valves on the market. Some are prone to fail, and others last a very long time. Unfortunately we don't have a type of aquatic consumer report, so our main source of information are each others reports of what worked for us, and what failed.

My worst disaster was the one I previously described with a single stage CO2 regulator, and much as I hate to admit it while I was still in my pressurized CO2 learning phase I got duped once more by a cheap overseas produced 'dual gauge' CO2 regulator, which happened to be nothing but another single stage CO2 regulator under different label, that time I lost not quite as many fish as the first time. I also later  had a carbon doser CO2 regulator,which when they first came out was marketed as electronic CO2 regulator, that one also failed because of the needle valve control and I wasn't impressed with the warranty.

It was then that I decided to buy a Green Leaf Aquariums dual stage regulator, and I haven't had any issue in years, I have seen their warranty in action, only for minor issues but it was never a problem. I have had questions answered in a more than timely manner, and in courteous fashion.

I no longer recommend regulators because they fit a budget because I have experienced for myself how much money I wasted as my 'apprenticeship money' learning that way. I don't recommend what I would under no circumstances ever use again, and in all the variants on the market the only reliably working brands I've seen are the GLA, and CO2Art, that doesn't mean there might not be others out there, it just means that if there are I don't have knowledge,or experience with them.

Here are some links that might shine a bit more light on the subject, it even has links to building a DIY regulator from quality parts for those who are savvy enough to do so. Sorry this got so long but my past experience with shoddy CO2 regulators and your heartbreaking story prompted this.

http://scapefu.com/co2-regulators-explained-scapefu034/

https://aquanswers.com/best-co2-regulator-aquarium-stable-planted/#single-or-dual-stage

https://www.compgasspecialtygas.com/faq/what-is-the-difference-between-a-single-stage-and-a-dual-stage-regulator

ORD 💜

[Anjampie]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:06 PM, Rhonda said:

Co2 tank was empty and the indicators were yellow.

Sorry for your experience.  Some component has failed, either the regulator or the needle valve and actually I might suspect the needle valve.  Can you post which type of needle valve you're using - is that also from Ista?  In my experience the regulator plus needle valve combo requires a lot of control from both the regulator and the needle valve and even very small changes in the needle valve setting can make large changes in CO2 flow.  You can help make the system more robust and less "twitchy" if you insert a secondary flow restrictor between the regulator and the needle valve.  These are very affordable and help bring the flow rate into a more easily controlled range.  Here's the set-up I went with for my nano aquarium:  https://niade.com/controlling-aquarium-co2/