Trouble in paradise! (unhappy plants)

[Martin]

Hey all!  I need your collective big brains to help me understand why my plants are unhappy!

My 10-gallon houses a number of species that had been stable since I set up the tank about 3 months ago.  My root feeders (cryptos and amazon sword) have been doing well with their root tabs, however my non-root feeders (aponogeton, bacopa caroliniana, windelov java fern) are all struggling (detailed below).  My water parameters have held stable at:

pH: 6.8-7.0
dGH: ~6.8
dKH: ~1.1
NO2: 0
NO3: 0-10

Each week, I do a 20% PWC and dose with 1ml Easy Green, some Seachem GH/KH buffers (to keep up the dGH and dKH as we have really soft water), and some liquid CO2.  The tank gets a low to low-medium amount of light for roughly 8 hours daily.  Some time ago, some plants had (and still have) some mild level of brown developing on the leaves (which I believe are diatoms/brown algae).  Apart from this, the plants were largely fine.  The animal life appears happy and healthy.  When I just went to do my routine PWC and noticed:

The aponogeton's growth rate has slowed dramatically and the edges of some leaves are rotting (pic below).  Previously, I had to keep clipping healthy leaves to keep it from taking over the whole tank.  Now, I still see some new shoots coming out, but far less and slower than before.  I've also noticed it has lost that vibrant green it used to be.

My windelov fern originally came with a few black spots on the leaves, however those spots recently accelerated and some of the leaves I have clipped are predominantly black.  After some research, I was under the impression that it was possibly a nitrogen shortage, so I dosed with a little bit more Easy Green, but it didn't do the trick.

Lastly my bacopa has been growing well (they started to grow up and out of the water), however during my PWC today, two strands floated to the top as the base of the stems had rotted away.  I clipped away the dead portion and left the healthy part floating to hopefully grow new roots.  EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention, I actually have two clusters of bacopa.  One cluster is in a more open area by itself and those stems seem healthy.  The other cluster is close to some other plants, including some of the long fronds of the aponogeton.  I'm not sure if that makes a difference.  I'm not sure if it is a competition for light, but if so, the bacopa would surely lose out to the aponogeton.

I'm really at a loss at this point.  I know the issue is likely due to some imbalance between the balance of CO2, light, and nutrients, but unfortunately, I haven't dealt with this enough to understand how to investigate further.  Any insight would be very much appreciated!  Thank you guys as always!

Edited March 28, 2021 by Martin

[Solidus1833]

So, while I dont have alot of experience diagnosing the health of plants I figured Id pipe in with my 2cents as I also have struggled with 'some' plants. First, what is your substrate? Sand, gravel? Something like Fluval Spectrum or seachem flourite? Maybe a mixture? 

Are you maintaining 20ppm of nitrate in the aquarium? Is your light full spectrum? 

For me I have Anubias, Red Swords, Jungle Val, and crypts. My swords seem to be doing ok, with some die-off but still grows new leaves so I dont really bother with them. My crypts and jungle val do very well, and my anubias is mostly healthy however some leaves are filled with black spots.  filled with black spots. My substrate is SeaCarb white sand and Seachem Flourite mix. I have hard water and dose Co2. I've always had a problem keeping stem-plants except for Pogostemon stellatus octopus. I've tried scarlet temple, ammanina gracilis, even hornwort seems to just rot away in my aquariums. I only dose ferts when my nitrates fall below 10ppm which is almost never. And I've also not really kept up with my root tabs which is probably why my red swords dont really grow as much. The dojo's in my tank will dig to my root tabs and just tear them up haha, not sure what to do about that. I got tired of replacing the root tabs and 15mins later my dojos are digging for em. If you zoom in on the anubias glued to the wood you can see the black I'm talking about, and the die-off on the amazon swords 'right side' 

[Koi]

From what you described it sounds like you need to dose more easy green. Holes in leaves is usually symptomatic of a potassium deficiency but more than likely you are low on several nutrients and since your nitrates are relatively low, that means adding another dose of easy green should be no problem.

As a general guideline when you see the bottom/older leaves start falling apart it usually means your plants are pulling nutrients from its own leaves to grow because there is none available in your water column. You could stand to even do 2 extra doses of easy green but try one for now and see if there is progress keeping in mind that as your plant mass grows you will need to adjust the amount you feed to sustain the plants.

From this point focus on your new growth and ignore the dying leaves because they will not grow back. Since you mentioned that you see new growth in your plants I would cut the tattered leaves of your aponogeton and bacopa. If you'd like, it might be better to just cut the tops of your bacopa and replant.

Also when was the last time you added a root tab for your aponogeton? You said you noticed its rate of growth has slowed down substantially which could indicate that its time to put another one in.

On a side note, I've found that madagascar lace plants consume a considerable amount of potassium and I would assume that would be the case for many aponogetons. But no need to go buy extra potassium since easy green has a considerable amount in it and you still have a lot of extra room (nitrate wise) to dose more when you need to cross that bridge.

[Solidus1833]

3 minutes ago, Koi said:

From what you described it sounds like you need to dose more easy green. Holes in leaves is usually symptomatic of a potassium deficiency but more than likely you are low on several nutrients and since your nitrates are relatively low, that means adding another dose of easy green should be no problem.

As a general guideline when you see the bottom/older leaves start falling apart it usually means your plants are pulling nutrients from its own leaves to grow because there is none available in your water column. You could stand to even do 2 extra doses of easy green but try one for now and see if there is progress keeping in mind that as your plant mass grows you will need to adjust the amount you feed to sustain the plants.

From this point focus on your new growth and ignore the dying leaves because they will not grow back. Since you mentioned that you see new growth in your plants I would cut the tattered leaves of your aponogeton and bacopa. If you'd like, it might be better to just cut the tops of your bacopa and replant.

Also when was the last time you added a root tab for your aponogeton? You said you noticed its rate of growth has slowed down substantially which could indicate that its time to put another one in.

On a side note, I've found that madagascar lace plants consume a considerable amount of potassium and I would assume that would be the case for many aponogetons. But no need to go buy extra potassium since easy green has a considerable amount in it and you still have a lot of extra room (nitrate wise) to dose more when you need to cross that bridge.

I suppose I'm running into the same issue. I should go back to dosing EG every week. I've not dosed since the Texas Snowmageddon and recovering my tank which must have had over 200ppm nitrate. 

[Koi]

@Solidus1833 It could quite possibly be the case since you are running co2. You could be driving the growth so fast that plant consumes itself to the point where it can't recover.

By the way your tank looks great, I love the rainbows and loaches! It looks like you have a decent sized bio-load so adding nitrates is probably a non issue for you. That being said, when your tank reaches 10ppm nitrates that could possibly mean you bottomed out on the rest of your nutrients. Maybe try maintaining your nitrates from 20-30 ppm nitrates with easy green and see if that helps.

I use to have these big boom and bust cycles of plant growth and usually it was because used the same amount of fertilizer even thought my plant mass doubled and needed more (If I'm being completely honest, I still suffer from dosing incorrectly). Maybe you're experiencing the same thing. 

I just noticed your anubias and it looks like you have black beard algae. If the anubias is able to be pulled out of the tank, you can treat it with hydrogen peroxide or excel to kill it.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Koi

[Martin]

Thanks so much for the input @Koi!  I'll up the dosing of EG and observe.  One question though, is aponogeton a root feeder?  I was under the impression (though I don't know why) that it was not, thus I hadn't put down any tabs near it!  I'll throw one down and see how it goes!

Edited March 29, 2021 by Martin

[Solidus1833]

28 minutes ago, Koi said:

@Solidus1833 It could quite possibly be the case since you are running co2. You could be driving the growth so fast that plant consumes itself to the point where it can't recover.

By the way your tank looks great, I love the rainbows and loaches! It looks like you have a decent sized bio-load so adding nitrates is probably a non issue for you. That being said, when your tank reaches 10ppm nitrates that could possibly mean you bottomed out on the rest of your nutrients. Maybe try maintaining your nitrates from 20-30 ppm nitrates with easy green and see if that helps.

I use to have these big boom and bust cycles of plant growth and usually it was because used the same amount of fertilizer even thought my plant mass doubled and needed more (If I'm being completely honest, I still suffer from dosing incorrectly). Maybe you're experiencing the same thing. 

I just noticed your anubias and it looks like you have black beard algae. If the anubias is able to be pulled out of the tank, you can treat it with hydrogen peroxide or excel to kill it.

Thank you! The stock list is Pleco (L191 Royal, L075 Para, L270 False Zebra), 4x Albino Cory, 4x Bosmani, Female Rainbow Shark (Tank Boss), 3 Grey/Peppered Dojo, 2x Albino Dojo, 6x Clowns, and two siamese Algae eaters. 

 

Thank you for the info. I say 10-20ppm but the api color is more orange than brown so its prolly 20ppm. When the color starts going reddish is when I know to do a waterchange usually around 5-7 days. I think you may be right about bottoming out on nutrients. I have a red sword leaf thats practically all vein and no leaf now haha. As for the possible black beard algae on the anubias, im not quite sure. Isnt BB algae like hair algae. I used to get it on my val but after I introduced the siamese algae eaters, thats not been an issue. The black on the anubias started after I uncovered my tank from the winter storm here in texas. At that time the nitrate was well over 200ppm. Took me about two weeks to get it back to 20ppm. I thought about just snipping off the affected anubias leaves but I've not really got around to it yet. But I should probably really get back to dosing ferts. 

[Koi]

I personally think classifying plants as root feeders or water column feeders is sort of a misnomer since most plants do both but for simplicities sake, yes.

I think of root tabs as a back up for nutrients that the roots can access when nutrients aren't available in the water column. Bulb plants in general tend to consume a lot of nutrients because they are trying to store as much energy before they go into a dormancy stage during the winter (at least this is the case outside when a plant has to weather different seasons). When I owned a madagascar lace, it was planted in dirt with no extra ferts and it grew like crazy so I think root tabs would be a worthwhile venture for you.

Hopefully this helps, update us on your progress!

[Solidus1833]

12 minutes ago, Koi said:

I personally think classifying plants as root feeders or water column feeders is sort of a misnomer since most plants do both but for simplicities sake, yes.

I think of root tabs as a back up for nutrients that the roots can access when nutrients aren't available in the water column. Bulb plants in general tend to consume a lot of nutrients because they are trying to store as much energy before they go into a dormancy stage during the winter (at least this is the case outside when a plant has to weather different seasons). When I owned a madagascar lace, it was planted in dirt with no extra ferts and it grew like crazy so I think root tabs would be a worthwhile venture for you.

Hopefully this helps, update us on your progress!

I wish there was a way for me to do root tabs and keep them away from my dojos lol. I swear every time I root tab, I find them digging deep and searing up the tabs, and pumping the white powder through their gills sifting for food. 

[Koi]

47 minutes ago, Solidus1833 said:

I find them digging deep and searing up the tabs

I was a little jealous of your stocking since I always wanted to get clown loaches....this makes me feel a little better that I don’t have to deal with that!

[Solidus1833]

2 minutes ago, Koi said:

I was a little jealous of your stocking since I always wanted to get clown loaches....this makes me feel a little better that I don’t have to deal with that!

oh the clown loaches don't mess with the root tabs. They don't dig, sometimes move the substrate around but nothing like the Dojo loaches. Those piggies will pump/sift the substrate like power-vacuums searching for what they are smelling. I stopped root tabbing because honestly watching them tear into root tabs I just spent time placing, ripping them apart, and sifting the powder felt like a waist of time for me. Not sure if that could damage their gills either because that stuff is supposed to stay in the substrate. 

[Koi]

33 minutes ago, Solidus1833 said:

Not sure if that could damage their gills either because that stuff is supposed to stay in the substrate. 

It’s probably no more dangerous than liquid fertilizer in the water

[Solidus1833]

Just now, Koi said:

It’s probably no more dangerous than liquid fertilizer in the water

do you think it would still be beneficial even if they tear them up? Because then its just in the water column minus how much seeps back into the substrate. 

[Koi]

@Solidus1833 Sure, just keep an eye on the nitrates most root tabs don’t specify how much nutrients are in each tab.

[Solidus1833]

6 minutes ago, Koi said:

@Solidus1833 Sure, just keep an eye on the nitrates most root tabs don’t specify how much nutrients are in each tab.

I went to read my bag of Co-op root tabs. 

Red Clay, Magnesium, Nitrate, Phosphate, potassium, manganese, zinc, molybdenum, and iron. All of which are already in Easy Green. So maybe I should just dose more EG as some must get into the substrate as-well. These dojos are so fun, but dang, its impossible to keep root tabs in place with them hahaha. 

[Martin]

Welp... plants are still looking pretty unhappy after adding root tabs and increasing EG dosing.  Did a pretty big pruning of dead material this morning hoping to decrease plant mass and giving one more shot of EG.  Not sure what else it could be given nothing else about the tank has changed.

[Koi]

You’ll need to allow your plants some more time to recover at least another week or two. Sometimes it takes me a whole season to get a plant back to healthy shape.

Just keep up with your dosing and maintenance and the plant should rebound. 

[Martin]

Thanks, that's good to know.  While I hadn't expected them to do an immediate 180, I thought the decay would slow down.  I'll keep watching.

[Solidus1833]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

Thanks, that's good to know.  While I hadn't expected them to do an immediate 180, I thought the decay would slow down.  I'll keep watching.

Like what @Koisaid. At this point you are just trying to recover what plants may survive. I bet it will take atleast a week before you notice 'new' growth. Depending on the plant maybe longer. I've definitely run into plants I just could 'not' keep healthy, all part of the learning process.