Finally seeing changes with my water after testing but now what?

[mgudyka]

I really have absolutely no idea what I am doing. I thought I understood the nitrogen cycle but it's clear I do not. I'm seeing ammonia, nitrate, and nitrites all above 0 (which is a pretty dramatic change between 1 week ago and now). I thought I would see a spike of ammonia, then it go down and then a spike of nitrate, and then that go down and a spike of nitrite. I feel like this is just an explosion of everything.

What do I do next? Keep waiting? Change the water? I don't have fish. I am very confused!

[CT_]

The "curves" over lap before you're cycled.  I'd say you're on your way to being cycled.  If there are no fish you could probably just let it sit.  You're probably also justified in doing a water change to keep nitrate lower for incoming fish.  Up to you.  I'd wait and then change water down to 20ppm nitrate before you add fish but that's just me being lazy.

Edited March 12, 2021 by CT_

[Biotope Biologist]

What exactly are you doing to cycle the tank?

 

Are you planning on running a mechanical filter or just the sponge filter? I see that you are also having trouble with cloudy water so I would say that you are still in the middle of cycling. But based on what you are doing I can give you advice on how to get your tank cycled quickly and ready for fish

Edited March 12, 2021 by Biotope Biologist
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[mgudyka]

4 minutes ago, Biotope Biologist said:

What exactly are you doing to cycle the tank?

 

Are you planning on running a mechanical filter or just the sponge filter? I see that you are also having trouble with cloudy water so I would say that you are still in the middle of cycling. But based on what you are doing I can give you advice on how to get your tank cycled quickly and ready for fish

This is a different tank than my cloudy water tank! I have a mechanical filter on this tank.

[mgudyka]

7 minutes ago, CT_ said:

The "curves" over lap before you're cycled.  I'd say you're on your way to being cycled.  If there are no fish you could probably just let it sit.  You're probably also justified in doing a water change to keep nitrate lower for incoming fish.  Up to you.  I'd wait and then change water down to 20ppm nitrate before you add fish but that's just me being lazy.

So I should be more concerned about the nitrate in the water than the ammonia? I guess I will sit on it for a little longer. I have been testing every other day but maybe I will start daily

[CT_]

5 minutes ago, mgudyka said:

So I should be more concerned about the nitrate in the water than the ammonia? I guess I will sit on it for a little longer. I have been testing every other day but maybe I will start daily

I meant that in the context of a fully cycled aquarium.  It's most important to have 0 ammonia 0 nitrates.  After that the only way to remove nitrate is by plants or water change

[mgudyka]

Just now, CT_ said:

I meant that in the context of a fully cycled aquarium.  It's most important to have 0 ammonia 0 nitrates.  After that the only way to remove nitrate is by plants or water change

And the ammonia and nitrates should go down on their own as the bacteria does its thing? I have lots of plants and dont have a lot of distance between my tank and a sink so I am looking forward to being able to tackle nitrites and get some fish!

[Biotope Biologist]

I wouldn't be concerned. This suggests to me that you are just about ready. Feeding the bacteria in your filter will speed up this process. Flaked food crumbled up and tossing into the tank, or buying macro invertebrates from your local fish store. You can also ask your local fish store for a bag of water from their established aquarium to help seed your filter are all things that you can do

[CT_]

2 minutes ago, mgudyka said:

And the ammonia and nitrates should go down on their own as the bacteria does its thing?

Yep!

[mgudyka]

Just now, Biotope Biologist said:

I wouldn't be concerned. This suggests to me that you are just about ready. Feeding the bacteria in your filter will speed up this process. Flaked food crumbled up and tossing into the tank, or buying macro invertebrates from your local fish store. You can also ask your local fish store for a bag of water from their established aquarium to help seed your filter are all things that you can do

I thought water would not doing anything since the bacteria lives on surfaces of things like substrate/tank walls/etc ?

[Biotope Biologist]

When I worked in a fishstore way back when I would disturb the filter to shake out particulates of the floss and bag up the water once it ran into the tank for people to help seed the tank. So yes that is true. Also be aware that I would only do this if the store was not busy, otherwise I would just say be patient and use fish food. It is the easiest way.

[Schwack]

You're unlikely to see any gain just getting water. Like you said, that's just not getting much of the bacteria you need.

Based on your levels, you've probably got a bit more waiting to do. The last tank I cycled from nothing took ~10 days to get to 0 nh3/no2 from about the same point. Be patient, I'd check every other day, if that, for the next week. If you've got snails or fishfood in the tank, it's unlikely you'll run out of sources of ammonia. Just waiting on your bacteria colonies to grow out.

  

3 minutes ago, Biotope Biologist said:

When I worked in a fishstore way back when I would disturb the filter to shake out particulates of the floss and bag up the water once it ran into the tank for people to help seed the tank. So yes that is true. Also be aware that I would only do this if the store was not busy, otherwise I would just say be patient and use fish food. It is the easiest way.

Filter squeezings are a whole 'nother story! If you can get your hands on some gross, brown filter squeezings go for it.

 

edit: I attached a picture of my tank's progress. It's slow. I was using ammonium chloride instead of fish food but the principles are all the same.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Schwack

[JettsPapa]

10 minutes ago, CT_ said:

I meant that in the context of a fully cycled aquarium.  It's most important to have 0 ammonia 0 nitrates.  After that the only way to remove nitrate is by plants or water change

No.  You want zero ammonia and nitrites.  Some nitrates is okay (I wouldn't worry unless it got above 40 ppm with fish in the tank).  It's important to understand the difference between the two.

[Brandy]

34 minutes ago, mgudyka said:

I really have absolutely no idea what I am doing. I thought I understood the nitrogen cycle but it's clear I do not. I'm seeing ammonia, nitrate, and nitrites all above 0 (which is a pretty dramatic change between 1 week ago and now). I thought I would see a spike of ammonia, then it go down and then a spike of nitrate, and then that go down and a spike of nitrite. I feel like this is just an explosion of everything.

What do I do next? Keep waiting? Change the water? I don't have fish. I am very confused!

 

Nitrogen cycle 101:

waste makes ammonia--think of urine. 

Ammonia is very poisonous to fish, but it is fertilizer to plants and food for some types of bacteria. 

The bacteria that eats ammonia makes waste (again think of urine) that is nitrIte. NitrIte is still toxic to fish, but it is stil fertilizer for plants and food for some OTHER types of bacteria.

The OTHER bacteria eat the NitrIte and make NitrAte as waste. NitrAte is still fertilizer for plants, but much less toxic for fish. 

What you are doing when you cycle your tank is growing colonies of these two types of bacteria. They multiply fast, but not instantly. You feed the first type, and it starts eating, the second type then start eating, and if you imagine how they are eating and multiplying you can see that you wont convert every single ammonia molecule to a NitrIte molecule instantly. It is a process and there will be overlap. Once your colonies of bacteria are big enough they eat continuously and you wont be able to measure ammonia unless you do something like drop a whole can of food in there at once. Then we say the tank is "fully cycled".

[Daniel]

Not everything works like the textbooks say. This aquarium was well behaved (and had fish in it while it was cycling):

This similar (with fish) tank had a different but equally successful experience:

The rules have more leeway than is imagined.

[mgudyka]

Just now, Daniel said:

Not everything works like the textbooks say. This aquarium was well behaved (and had fish in it while it was cycling):

This similar (with fish) tank had a different but equally successful experience:

The rules have more leeway than is imagined.

Did you plot these yourself or do you have a digital monitor because that's really neat

[Daniel]

I plotted those in MS Excel, but I also do have digital monitors in those same aquariums (Neptune Apex) that plot nice graphs of temperature and pH also:

 

 

[mgudyka]

I tested my water again this evening and everything seemed higher than I had seen before and i performed a water change (probably 30-40% because i was still figuring out how to use the python siphon). I tested my water again and am now second guessing my decision to change the water. the image with the lighter colors are post water change. Am i overthinking this all?

 

Thank you to everyone who has been so kind and helpful to me in this forum as I learn about this hobby.

[Ken]

I little background please?

How long has the aquarium been set up?

Are there fish in it?

Are there plants in it?

 

[Fish Folk]

First off, welcome to the fun world of aquatics! It's a fascinating science + art + pet-keeping +DIY + business mix of a hobby. 

The leftmost test (high range pH) indicates a fairly high pH (somewhere between 7.8 and 8.2 would be my guess). You can compare this with the normal pH test (blue bottle). The API kit doesn't come with a GH or KH test (you have to buy that separately) but that will be helpful for interpreting how stable your pH may tend to be. IF your GH (General Hardness) or KH (Carbonate Hardness) are _low_ then your pH will tend to be more unstable, and it is advisable to add crushed coral to your tank. If it is high, your water may be good for certain plants and fish, but may stress out other fish. 

The next three tests in order -- Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate -- are all part of the nitrogen cycle. When waste occurs, or a fish dies, there is an ammonia spike. Aerobic bacterial colonies must be developed (in a filter) that can consume Ammonia and convert it to Nitrite. Another stage in that cycle is when bacterial colonies convert nitrite to nitrate. In a perfect eco system, you'd have enough plants to suck out the Nitrate completely. But because we rarely populate our tanks with enough plants, it is typical to have to "change water" (i.e. use a python, etc) to lower the Nitrate levels. 

It appears that your tank is beginning to cycle. However, for healthy fish, the Ammonia readings are too high and the Nitrite is too high. You can try boosting your bacterial colony by adding a beneficial bacterial surge liquid. Fritz makes some good products as does Dr. Tim's. But the best way is to get bio from another tank (e.g. move over an established sponge filter), or change water in from another tank, etc. You should probably wait until you register zero Ammonia, and Zero Nitrite if you want to give fish a really good environment. 

Now, one thing that is important to check is your source / tap (or well) water. Test the water out of your faucet. It may have Ammonia in. That's important to bear in mind. We use "Fritz Complete" to both detoxify chlorine / chloromine and to detoxify Ammonia all at once. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Fish Folk

[Ken]

30 minutes ago, mgudyka said:

Am i overthinking this all

Yes, it happens often.

[Schwack]

If I remember your last post, this is totally in line with what I would expect from a tank starting to cycle. Ammonia is increasing as more food rots/snails poop/organics decay in the water and the bacteria which consume ammonia are trying to keep up. Nitrites are on the rise as a result which ultimately bumps nitrates up.

Definitely a case of overthinking. Stop checking daily! It'll just drive you nuts. Check ammonia every other day. Once it starts plummeting (.25-.5ppm) take a nitrite reading. Once nitrites are toward zero, then I'd bother testing for nitrate. Save water changes for right before you add fish.

Snails, especially bladder snails, are hardy little buggers. The hitchhikers in my tank survived ammonia spiking to over 4ppm as I figured out how to dose the stuff at a reasonable level. Changing the water isn't going to hurt your cycle, but it can make it harder to see changes. Nature is often slow, but it'll get there.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Schwack

[Eric R]

8 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

The leftmost test (high range pH) indicates a fairly high pH (somewhere between 7.8 and 8.2 would be my guess).

If it's a light brown, wouldn't that mean it's 7.4? Hard to tell with the lighting.

[Fish Folk]

21 minutes ago, ererer said:

f it's a light brown, wouldn't that mean it's 7.4? Hard to tell with the lighting.

Yeah, need to compare with normal pH instead of high range. Better lighting + white background 

[mgudyka]

8 hours ago, Schwack said:

If I remember your last post, this is totally in line with what I would expect from a tank starting to cycle. Ammonia is increasing as more food rots/snails poop/organics decay in the water and the bacteria which consume ammonia are trying to keep up. Nitrites are on the rise as a result which ultimately bumps nitrates up.

Definitely a case of overthinking. Stop checking daily! It'll just drive you nuts. Check ammonia every other day. Once it starts plummeting (.25-.5ppm) take a nitrite reading. Once nitrites are toward zero, then I'd bother testing for nitrate. Save water changes for right before you add fish.

Snails, especially bladder snails, are hardy little buggers. The hitchhikers in my tank survived ammonia spiking to over 4ppm as I figured out how to dose the stuff at a reasonable level. Changing the water isn't going to hurt your cycle, but it can make it harder to see changes. Nature is often slow, but it'll get there

Well, my biggest takeaway from this is that I need to settle down and quit testing daily! I know that was my mistake!! I really ought to pause and take your advice. Perhaps I should decide on what I will be stocking my tank with first. Thank you for providing top of the line advice!!