Cycling with Fish

[mgudyka]

Hi all,

I am an absolute novice at this hobby. I have had my tank running for 5 days now. I added Fritzyme 7 to the tank and added some fish food in hopes to get things moving. I received my test kit today (thanks aquarium co-op!) and tested my water and there is absolutely nothing going on here. 

Is fish food not going to be enough to get things moving? Should I be adding a couple fish and just test frequently and change water often? And then add more fish when it has been fully cycled? 

Thank you everyone for the advice. 

[Schwack]

The fish food method is going to take a fair amount of time. You're just stuck waiting on things to rot, which is something of an inexact science. I've seen folks talk about it taking 6-8 weeks using only fish food. I pride myself on being patient with this hobby, but I'm not that patient.

If you can, I'd recommend getting your hands on some ammonium chloride. I ended up ordering a 1lbs bag of the powdered stuff and I'll almost certainly drop dead before I finish the bag.

As far as a fish-in cycle... I guess? Assuming you're performing water changes to keep levels in check, feeding lightly and being observant it's certainly possible. I think @Danielhas posted before about a tank that was allowed to just sort itself out. My opinion would be that things like that are best left to experienced and knowledgeable fish-keepers, people who have seen enough tanks cycle to know how to handle any bumps in the road, but assuming you chose a hardy fish it's an option.

[Eric R]

People new to testing frequently get false nitrate results, be sure to really shake the heck out of the bottle and the vial. You can try testing levels an hour or two after ghost feeding the tank to see if you have detectable ammonia levels, and then again 24 hours later to see if it's been processed by bacteria.

[Eric R]

There's shouldn't be an advantage to fish in cycling, the bacteria don't care what your ammonia source is as long as it's sufficient enough to feed them. Basically it just gets fish in your tank sooner. Some people use a raw shrimp instead of fish food as an ammonia source, though I've never personally done it. Ammonia chloride works well, as you can measure a precise dose of ammonia for your tank.

[CT_]

If you're impatient like me I'd just put a few cheap fish in, feed lightly, and keep an eye on things (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

I'm not really a fan of ammonium chloride because I don't have any other use for it.  Normal household ammonia works great too.  1ml per 10 gallons (that's a teaspoon in 50gallons, or 1/4 teaspoon in 12.5gallons) ought to get you to the 0.5-2ppm range depending on the strength (they never say but I've heard its as strong as 10% and mine is closer to 2.5%).  Then you can use the rest to clean your windows 😉

 

Also, don't go past 4ppm ammonia or you could retard the growth of the bacteria rather than encourage it. 

 

Also, yeah what ererer said about shaking.  I made that mistake and was very confused when first cycling my tank.

 

oh, also also, use the high pH test.  It looks like you're maxed out on the low range pH test.

[H.K.Luterman]

Like what CT_ said, you can cycle with fish in, but it must be very low stocked, and use something like Prime to detoxify the ammonia and nitrite levels on a daily basis. Adding plants will also help, especially if they are bought from a tank in the fish store - they will bring with them small amounts of beneficial bacteria to help seed your tank. 

[CT_]

I actually just threw in tetra safe start and the fish and let god take the wheel.  My ammonia peaked somewhere just under 1ppm and then I was cycled.  I'm suspicious of how prime effects the cycle.  Seachem says it won't but they have conflicting "facts" about all kinds of things on their website so I never know what to believe.

[Brian]

What size aquarium?

Any plants?

Do you have a friend with an aquarium?

In my 50 years of fish keeping I have never cycled an aquarium.  
First if you can get a hand full of gravel from a tank of someone you trust, place it in a filter sock/bag and put in the tank.  Filter floss dirty sponge filter anything will work.  Put in a couple fish (this number depends on size of aquarium as well as fish).  Don’t feed the first day.  They are stressed and just started the cycle for you.  About every other day feed very little.  Check water after 5 days or as often as you need to keep peace of mind.  Changing water depends on tank size or test results.

after a week or so add a few more fish and repeat until tank is stocked.   
good luck 

[Maggie]

I've cycled using ammonia and fish-in in two different aquariums. If you use ammonia to cycle, there is specific aquarium-use ammonia (Dr. Tims is one; there may be others) with no additives. Regular household ammonia usually contains detergents that are probably deadly to fish, beneficial bacteria and any other life in your aquarium. It takes approximately 6 weeks to fully cycle using ammonia but at the end you have a rock-solid bacteria count in the tank. Fish-in cycling is a bit nerve wracking but quicker.

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Schwack said:

As far as a fish-in cycle... I guess? Assuming you're performing water changes to keep levels in check, feeding lightly and being observant it's certainly possible. I think @Danielhas posted before about a tank that was allowed to just sort itself out. My opinion would be that things like that are best left to experienced and knowledgeable fish-keepers, people who have seen enough tanks cycle to know how to handle any bumps in the road, but assuming you chose a hardy fish it's an option.

Like @Schwack says maybe only experienced people should do fish-in cycling. I am usually loathe to recommend my method of just putting the plants and fish and water from an established tank all on day one. But then I read all of the nightmare posts where new fishkeepers are conscientiously following all the rules and end up with a very unhappy aquarium. I know my method wouldn't work on someone's first tank, because where would the plants and water from an established aquarium come from?

But it hard not to want to say, don't make it so complicated! Even scientist who study this keep changing the narrative of which bacteria do what when. I am not saying we don't know the outline of what is happening, but clearly the details are still murky.

I do what I do because it works and it is easy. I wonder who else on the forum just throws everything in on day one (I think Cory just throws everything together on day one).

 

[DSH OUTDOORS]

I did a fish in cycle on my first tank in 20 years and had disastrous results. Lots of dead fish and money literally flushed down the toilet and a very dad 8 year old daughter. My second tank (I've got MTS bad) I used Dr. Tims ammonium chloride that @Maggiementioned and was able to cycle in two weeks and couldn't be happier with the results. Now that I have established tanks I'd be more inclined to just pull gravel, plants and a sponge filter from one of the established ones and get my tank cycled that way.

[mgudyka]

9 hours ago, CT_ said:

If you're impatient like me I'd just put a few cheap fish in, feed lightly, and keep an eye on things (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

I'm not really a fan of ammonium chloride because I don't have any other use for it.  Normal household ammonia works great too.  1ml per 10 gallons (that's a teaspoon in 50gallons, or 1/4 teaspoon in 12.5gallons) ought to get you to the 0.5-2ppm range depending on the strength (they never say but I've heard its as strong as 10% and mine is closer to 2.5%).  Then you can use the rest to clean your windows 😉

 

Also, don't go past 4ppm ammonia or you could retard the growth of the bacteria rather than encourage it. 

 

Also, yeah what ererer said about shaking.  I made that mistake and was very confused when first cycling my tank.

 

oh, also also, use the high pH test.  It looks like you're maxed out on the low range pH test.

I AM impatient but I also am inexperienced and I don't want to not see issues and let fish die because of it. I supposed I could buy the ammonium chloride (I would just add it to the pile of things I don't need ever again). Normal household ammonia might be good for cleaning windows, but I opt to keep my windows smudgy so birds don't fly into them if they are too clean ☺️.

I did do the high range after the first round (and thought maybe I tested for nitrates wrong so I did it again) and I think I am at a pretty good pH right?

[mgudyka]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

What size aquarium?

Any plants?

Do you have a friend with an aquarium?

In my 50 years of fish keeping I have never cycled an aquarium.  
First if you can get a hand full of gravel from a tank of someone you trust, place it in a filter sock/bag and put in the tank.  Filter floss dirty sponge filter anything will work.  Put in a couple fish (this number depends on size of aquarium as well as fish).  Don’t feed the first day.  They are stressed and just started the cycle for you.  About every other day feed very little.  Check water after 5 days or as often as you need to keep peace of mind.  Changing water depends on tank size or test results.

after a week or so add a few more fish and repeat until tank is stocked.   
good luck 

29 gallon tank. I have two plants right now (windelov java fern and anubias nana) with more on the way. I don't know anyone who fishkeeps but I have been thinking about going on my local neighborhood board and asking if anyone local would be willing to share.

[mgudyka]

16 minutes ago, DSH OUTDOORS said:

I did a fish in cycle on my first tank in 20 years and had disastrous results. Lots of dead fish and money literally flushed down the toilet and a very dad 8 year old daughter. My second tank (I've got MTS bad) I used Dr. Tims ammonium chloride that @Maggiementioned and was able to cycle in two weeks and couldn't be happier with the results. Now that I have established tanks I'd be more inclined to just pull gravel, plants and a sponge filter from one of the established ones and get my tank cycled that way.

I don't even have a tank filled with fish yet and I already find myself planning new tanks due to MTS. I am slowly convincing my husband it's necessary under the guise of needing a quarantine tank (which is true of course) but then needing another one when some fish don't get along, etc. I will have to make a purchase of some ammonium chloride 

[mgudyka]

10 hours ago, ererer said:

There's shouldn't be an advantage to fish in cycling, the bacteria don't care what your ammonia source is as long as it's sufficient enough to feed them. Basically it just gets fish in your tank sooner. Some people use a raw shrimp instead of fish food as an ammonia source, though I've never personally done it. Ammonia chloride works well, as you can measure a precise dose of ammonia for your tank.

Thank you, the last thing I would want to do is hurt fish in the process so it sounds like ammonia chloride is the way to go 

[mgudyka]

10 hours ago, Schwack said:

The fish food method is going to take a fair amount of time. You're just stuck waiting on things to rot, which is something of an inexact science. I've seen folks talk about it taking 6-8 weeks using only fish food. I pride myself on being patient with this hobby, but I'm not that patient.

If you can, I'd recommend getting your hands on some ammonium chloride. I ended up ordering a 1lbs bag of the powdered stuff and I'll almost certainly drop dead before I finish the bag.

As far as a fish-in cycle... I guess? Assuming you're performing water changes to keep levels in check, feeding lightly and being observant it's certainly possible. I think @Danielhas posted before about a tank that was allowed to just sort itself out. My opinion would be that things like that are best left to experienced and knowledgeable fish-keepers, people who have seen enough tanks cycle to know how to handle any bumps in the road, but assuming you chose a hardy fish it's an option.

Thank you. It seems like the general consensus is getting ammonium chloride is the way to go. I bought that Fritzyme 7 stuff to add to the tank and their website even says "you don't need to add ammonia, the fish will do that for you!" And it's sometimes hard to disagree with a manufacturer when they are telling you what you want to hear, even if it not best practice. I am glad I came to this forum for help.

[mgudyka]

8 hours ago, H.K.Luterman said:

Like what CT_ said, you can cycle with fish in, but it must be very low stocked, and use something like Prime to detoxify the ammonia and nitrite levels on a daily basis. Adding plants will also help, especially if they are bought from a tank in the fish store - they will bring with them small amounts of beneficial bacteria to help seed your tank. 

Thank you. I think a trip to my LFS is in order for some plants. I recently ordered some from Wetplants but they delayed shipment because of fedex delays and I am so anxious to get them. My first two plants were from a chain pet store so they probably had nothing to offer.

[Brandy]

Like @Daniel, I use cycled media or gravel from another tank, throw everything in (lightly stocked, lightly fed, WITH live plants, especially fast growing floaters) and just let it do it's thing. I have tried Seachem stability, and I do keep prime handy in case of a big ammonia spike, but I find I rarely need it. Cycled media is pretty great, and even "sensitive" fish seem to do well with this method. However, that means you have to have some cycled media--this is a little like starting sourdough from scratch, it is only hard the first time. 

Personally I think plants are the real magic--they don't mind ammonia, and they will keep your tank healthy while the bacteria gets established. When I started my first tank from scratch, I put in a bunch of live plants and waited until I had healthy new growth, then I added fish slowly. I never did see the "normal" ammonia curve, too many plants just sucked it up.

[CT_]

3 hours ago, mgudyka said:

I did do the high range after the first round (and thought maybe I tested for nitrates wrong so I did it again) and I think I am at a pretty good pH right?

I'd take 7.4-7.6ph for sure :).  Most any fish would do fine there. 

[Hobbit]

1 hour ago, Brandy said:

Personally I think plants are the real magic--they don't mind ammonia, and they will keep your tank healthy while the bacteria gets established. When I started my first tank from scratch, I put in a bunch of live plants and waited until I had healthy new growth, then I added fish slowly. I never did see the "normal" ammonia curve, too many plants just sucked it up.

I agree! Plants are a great insurance policy.

I personally like using snails to cycle my tanks. (As well as gravel or a sponge from an established tank.) Snails poop a lot, they eat the algae that inevitably grows, and they seem to withstand the shifts in the cycle really well.

[mgudyka]

1 hour ago, Hobbit said:

I agree! Plants are a great insurance policy.

I personally like using snails to cycle my tanks. (As well as gravel or a sponge from an established tank.) Snails poop a lot, they eat the algae that inevitably grows, and they seem to withstand the shifts in the cycle really well.

Well I will be getting some gravel from an established tank today and I guess I will need to go out and buy myself some snails!

[Brandy]

Just now, mgudyka said:

Well I will be getting some gravel from an established tank today and I guess I will need to go out and buy myself some snails!

Hah, or just wait 5 minutes...:) If you build plant it, they will come.

[mgudyka]

8 minutes ago, Brandy said:

Hah, or just wait 5 minutes...:) If you build plant it, they will come.

Well that's horrifying. Thank you 

[Hobbit]

^Since you have plants, I’m surprised you don’t have snails already!

[mgudyka]

Just now, Hobbit said:

^Since you have plants, I’m surprised you don’t have snails already!

I just have two lil plants that came from petco that sat around for a couple of days before they got planted......so if there were snails perhaps they died. I didn't know I should have expected that kind of hitchhiker. Woops