Sudden pH drop in Betta aquarium

[SBor02]

Hello, we have had our Betta for a little over 4 weeks now.  The pH had a rapid drop from 7.2 to about 6.  The aquarium is still cycling and the highest the ammonia has gotten was 2.0 and we have not detected nitrite yet.  Now the ammonia is reading 0.  We are using an API Master Test kit.  I did find some searching online and came across an ammonia trap, but I am still a bit confused about why pH would drop so much.  I did do a 50% water change yesterday, but the pH is still  below our regular 7.2 readings.  Should I continue regular water changes?  The complicating factor is that we just started treatment for mild fin rot and the instructions say not to change water until 7 days of treatment.  Any advice is appreciated.  Thank you! 

[Emily M]

50 minutes ago, SBor02 said:

Hello, we have had our Betta for a little over 4 weeks now.  The pH had a rapid drop from 7.2 to about 6.  The aquarium is still cycling and the highest the ammonia has gotten was 2.0 and we have not detected nitrite yet.  Now the ammonia is reading 0.  We are using an API Master Test kit.  I did find some searching online and came across an ammonia trap, but I am still a bit confused about why pH would drop so much.  I did do a 50% water change yesterday, but the pH is still  below our regular 7.2 readings.  Should I continue regular water changes?  The complicating factor is that we just started treatment for mild fin rot and the instructions say not to change water until 7 days of treatment.  Any advice is appreciated.  Thank you! 

Hi friend! My thought is that the tank is still cycling and that’s why you have all these problems. If I were you, I’d keep doing the water changes, but order up some beneficial bacteria (fritzyme 7 is THE BEST) and dose the tank according to the instructions. After you add the bacteria, check parameters daily but add your treatment for fin rot too (ichx and Maracyn). If ammonia stays at 0 (because of the beneficial bacteria) and nitrates stay 0 (also because of the beneficial bacteria you added) then you don’t need to do another water change, and you can let the betta marinate in your fin rot treatment. But be sure to check parameters daily, and hold off on feeding until treatment is over. Check out girl talks fish for her betta fin rot video for more info. If you see ammonia increase and nitrates increase on your daily checks, you should do a water change and redoes the meds (if you are using maracyn and ichx) to keep them at the right concentration.  I think you are stuck “between a rock and a hard place” so to speak. 

[Fish Folk]

Some questions:

Is your betta in this tank currently?

What is the tank size (in gallons or liters)?

What is your current method for filtration (hang on back, sponge filter, etc)?

What is the pH of your source water (tap)?

Have you measured the hardness measurement of your source water? (GH / KH)

Is there anything like an Indian Almond Leaf (catappa leaf), Alder cones, or other tannin-inducing agent in the tank? 

Are there any live plants in the tank?

 

(Now, please pardon me if this is all information you know already) -- pH is a measurement of (H+) hydrogen ions in a liquid. Hydrogen ions are looking for chemicals to  bond with. As this occurs, the things they bond with "break down" (which is why acid appears to "disintegrate" things it comes into contact with). Fish are found generally between 5.5 and 8.5. 7.0 pH is neutral. Below 7.0 is increasingly more acidic; above 7.0 is increasingly alkaline (base). Most commonly sold aquarium fish require a delicate balance somewhere more specifically between 6.5 and 8.0. Bettas, generally, like a neutral 7.0 pH - though they can be kept a bit more acid. When pH "crashes" -- meaning that it goes down suddenly, and precipitously (as you describe from 7.2 to 6.0), the reason is generally . . . different water parameters added . . . chemical reaction that increases acidity . . . some other major change that accounts for it. Another property of water is "hardness." There are several aspects to it -- Carbonate Hardness (KH) and General Hardness (GH). This refers to "buffer" minerals in your water that _prevent_ sudden pH changes. If you think of it as chemistry, the (H+) ions that either increase or decrease, have minerals in the water to carry out reactions upon. However, if you happen to have "soft" water -- with very little minerals -- you may have virtually no "buffer" minerals, in which case, once a process has worked through your minimal buffer, the pH can crash suddenly. For example, we recently has a tank we were breeding some bronze corydoras in. We added a bunch of alder cones and catappa leaves and wood. Bronze corys can handle low pH (Amazon fish often can). We added some Columbian Tetras. Found one of those dead a few days later . . . then another the next day . . . then we tested the water. The pH had crashed from 7.8 pH to unmeasurably low . . . ca. 5 pH (?!) Our water is soft, so the natural breakdown of the leaf litter, which produces humic acid, had worn through our minimal buffer, and crashed our pH entirely. We moved the Columbians Tetras to another aquarium, did a water change, and all is well. What you need to figure out is exactly what your tap water really is in terms of its pH. And, remember, that the chemistry of your water changes substantially once it "rests" for a day. If you test your water straight from the tap vs. testing it 24-48 hours later, you may find a fair bit of change. This is because a lot of gasses are compressed in the water -- as well as other chemicals -- which essentially "gas off" as the water rests. 

     As for the nitrogen cycle, you need to have a colony of beneficial bacteria built up that can work through the waste fish produce along with the decomposing uneaten foods. Basically, fish live inside their own toilet. So, the first thing that happens is a spike in ammonia (NH3). The bacteria colony initially converts this to the ionic composition (NO2-). Then after this, bacterial colonies convert nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is much less toxic to fish than Nitrite or Ammonia. If you have live plants, they'll slowly consume Nitrate and flourish. In fact, plant fertilizers (such as Aquarium Co-Op Easy Green) contain a fair bit of beneficial Nitrate along with other minerals plants require to thrive. So, if you're trying to determine whether your tank is cycled, you need to be sure that the bacteria colonies are in sufficient strength to transition Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate. Ideally, all that you'd really be reading is a steady increase in Nitrate. 

*sorry for the book* 🤓

 

[Colu]

You  can add a buffer such as crush coral sand to help raise your KH GH and help stabilise your pH 

[Emily M]

18 minutes ago, Fish Folk said:

Some questions:

Is your betta in this tank currently?

What is the tank size (in gallons or liters)?

What is your current method for filtration (hang on back, sponge filter, etc)?

What is the pH of your source water (tap)?

Have you measured the hardness measurement of your source water? (GH / KH)

Is there anything like an Indian Almond Leaf (catappa leaf), Alder cones, or other tannin-inducing agent in the tank? 

Are there any live plants in the tank?

 

(Now, please pardon me if this is all information you know already) -- pH is a measurement of (H+) hydrogen ions in a liquid. Hydrogen ions are looking for chemicals to  bond with. As this occurs, the things they bond with "break down" (which is why acid appears to "disintegrate" things it comes into contact with). Fish are found generally between 5.5 and 8.5. 7.0 pH is neutral. Below 7.0 is increasingly more acidic; above 7.0 is increasingly alkaline (base). Most commonly sold aquarium fish require a delicate balance somewhere more specifically between 6.5 and 8.0. Bettas, generally, like a neutral 7.0 pH - though they can be kept a bit more acid. When pH "crashes" -- meaning that it goes down suddenly, and precipitously (as you describe from 7.2 to 6.0), the reason is generally . . . different water parameters added . . . chemical reaction that increases acidity . . . some other major change that accounts for it. Another property of water is "hardness." There are several aspects to it -- Carbonate Hardness (KH) and General Hardness (GH). This refers to "buffer" minerals in your water that _prevent_ sudden pH changes. If you think of it as chemistry, the (H+) ions that either increase or decrease, have minerals in the water to carry out reactions upon. However, if you happen to have "soft" water -- with very little minerals -- you may have virtually no "buffer" minerals, in which case, once a process has worked through your minimal buffer, the pH can crash suddenly. For example, we recently has a tank we were breeding some bronze corydoras in. We added a bunch of alder cones and catappa leaves and wood. Bronze corys can handle low pH (Amazon fish often can). We added some Columbian Tetras. Found one of those dead a few days later . . . then another the next day . . . then we tested the water. The pH had crashed from 7.8 pH to unmeasurably low . . . ca. 5 pH (?!) Our water is soft, so the natural breakdown of the leaf litter, which produces humic acid, had worn through our minimal buffer, and crashed our pH entirely. We moved the Columbians Tetras to another aquarium, did a water change, and all is well. What you need to figure out is exactly what your tap water really is in terms of its pH. And, remember, that the chemistry of your water changes substantially once it "rests" for a day. If you test your water straight from the tap vs. testing it 24-48 hours later, you may find a fair bit of change. This is because a lot of gasses are compressed in the water -- as well as other chemicals -- which essentially "gas off" as the water rests. 

     As for the nitrogen cycle, you need to have a colony of beneficial bacteria built up that can work through the waste fish produce along with the decomposing uneaten foods. Basically, fish live inside their own toilet. So, the first thing that happens is a spike in ammonia (NH3). The bacteria colony initially converts this to the ionic composition (NO2-). Then after this, bacterial colonies convert nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is much less toxic to fish than Nitrite or Ammonia. If you have live plants, they'll slowly consume Nitrate and flourish. In fact, plant fertilizers (such as Aquarium Co-Op Easy Green) contain a fair bit of beneficial Nitrate along with other minerals plants require to thrive. So, if you're trying to determine whether your tank is cycled, you need to be sure that the bacteria colonies are in sufficient strength to transition Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate. Ideally, all that you'd really be reading is a steady increase in Nitrate. 

*sorry for the book* 🤓

 

Really good!

[Fish Folk]

3 minutes ago, Emily M said:

Really good!

it was a total NERM answer . . . ask for a book . . . get smothered by a bookcase 😂

[Emily M]

The.Best.Ever. Period. 😀. I learn so much everyday. Thank You!

[SBor02]

21 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

Some questions:

Is your betta in this tank currently?

What is the tank size (in gallons or liters)?

What is your current method for filtration (hang on back, sponge filter, etc)?

What is the pH of your source water (tap)?

Have you measured the hardness measurement of your source water? (GH / KH)

Is there anything like an Indian Almond Leaf (catappa leaf), Alder cones, or other tannin-inducing agent in the tank? 

Are there any live plants in the tank?

 

(Now, please pardon me if this is all information you know already) -- pH is a measurement of (H+) hydrogen ions in a liquid. Hydrogen ions are looking for chemicals to  bond with. As this occurs, the things they bond with "break down" (which is why acid appears to "disintegrate" things it comes into contact with). Fish are found generally between 5.5 and 8.5. 7.0 pH is neutral. Below 7.0 is increasingly more acidic; above 7.0 is increasingly alkaline (base). Most commonly sold aquarium fish require a delicate balance somewhere more specifically between 6.5 and 8.0. Bettas, generally, like a neutral 7.0 pH - though they can be kept a bit more acid. When pH "crashes" -- meaning that it goes down suddenly, and precipitously (as you describe from 7.2 to 6.0), the reason is generally . . . different water parameters added . . . chemical reaction that increases acidity . . . some other major change that accounts for it. Another property of water is "hardness." There are several aspects to it -- Carbonate Hardness (KH) and General Hardness (GH). This refers to "buffer" minerals in your water that _prevent_ sudden pH changes. If you think of it as chemistry, the (H+) ions that either increase or decrease, have minerals in the water to carry out reactions upon. However, if you happen to have "soft" water -- with very little minerals -- you may have virtually no "buffer" minerals, in which case, once a process has worked through your minimal buffer, the pH can crash suddenly. For example, we recently has a tank we were breeding some bronze corydoras in. We added a bunch of alder cones and catappa leaves and wood. Bronze corys can handle low pH (Amazon fish often can). We added some Columbian Tetras. Found one of those dead a few days later . . . then another the next day . . . then we tested the water. The pH had crashed from 7.8 pH to unmeasurably low . . . ca. 5 pH (?!) Our water is soft, so the natural breakdown of the leaf litter, which produces humic acid, had worn through our minimal buffer, and crashed our pH entirely. We moved the Columbians Tetras to another aquarium, did a water change, and all is well. What you need to figure out is exactly what your tap water really is in terms of its pH. And, remember, that the chemistry of your water changes substantially once it "rests" for a day. If you test your water straight from the tap vs. testing it 24-48 hours later, you may find a fair bit of change. This is because a lot of gasses are compressed in the water -- as well as other chemicals -- which essentially "gas off" as the water rests. 

     As for the nitrogen cycle, you need to have a colony of beneficial bacteria built up that can work through the waste fish produce along with the decomposing uneaten foods. Basically, fish live inside their own toilet. So, the first thing that happens is a spike in ammonia (NH3). The bacteria colony initially converts this to the ionic composition (NO2-). Then after this, bacterial colonies convert nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is much less toxic to fish than Nitrite or Ammonia. If you have live plants, they'll slowly consume Nitrate and flourish. In fact, plant fertilizers (such as Aquarium Co-Op Easy Green) contain a fair bit of beneficial Nitrate along with other minerals plants require to thrive. So, if you're trying to determine whether your tank is cycled, you need to be sure that the bacteria colonies are in sufficient strength to transition Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate. Ideally, all that you'd really be reading is a steady increase in Nitrate. 

*sorry for the book* 🤓

 

So I let the tap water sit out since last night.  The pH is definitely lower after sitting than coming straight out of the tap.  However, the pH in the aquarium is still lower.  Ammonia is still at 0, but nitrite and nitrate are still showing 0 as well.  I have as yet to have any detectable nitrite so I am thinking the nitrogen cycle has still not started.  I have used Quick start intermittently, but Seachem Prime mostly.  The highest the ammonia ever got has been 2.0.  

 

Thank you for all of the info.  I do feel better about the pH as the drop has not been as drastic or fast as I first thought since the water has off gassed while in the aquarium.  However, should I be concerned since it is reading between 6.6 and 6.8?  

As for what we think is fin rot here is a pic.   The bottom looks more stingy towards the front.  Thanks again for all of the help!

[Fish Folk]

58 minutes ago, SBor02 said:

As for what we think is fin rot here is a pic.   The bottom looks more stingy towards the front. 

That’s a gorgeous Betta! Wow!! Hmm... It might not be fun rot. Fancy Bettas have strange things that go on at their fin ends. Keep an eye on it. Major cause of gin rot is foul water. Don’t overfeed, and change out water consistently. 

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

Major cause of gin rot is foul water.

Yes, it is what made me give up drinking.

[Fish Folk]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Yes, it is what made me give up drinking.

"fun rot" . . . "gin rot" . . . sheesh! must have been drinking something there. Hmm . . . what _is_ the pH of gin? 😂

[Maggie]

33 minutes ago, Fish Folk said:

"fun rot" . . . "gin rot" . . . sheesh! must have been drinking something there. Hmm . . . what _is_ the pH of gin? 😂

Now it's fun rot! Yay!

[SBor02]

So it has been about 2 weeks and I still have pH dropping especially after water changes.  Today's test is off the chart low.  I am also once again getting 0 ammonia, no nitrite, and no nitrate so no nitrogen cycle. Our tap water out of the tap is in the neutral range. After letting it sit 24 hours it is a bit lower, but nowhere as low as it is now.  

 

We have very hard water could that be having an effect?  I am just not sure what our options are at this point.  Any ideas are appreciated.

 

 

[quikv6]

I think a buffer such as crushed coral, whether in the substrate or a HOB filter, would be a good idea. It would raise KH, which, in turn, would stabilize PH.

[Brandy]

Yes, get yourself some buffer in there... Oddly my betta tank also had crashing pH, and I put that down to too much wood products in the tank. But I also think the realtively low bioload kept me from changing the water often enough and the fast growing plants were stripping everything out of the water. I sprinkled coral in on top of my substrate, and that helped. Betta tanks are typically smaller, that makes stabilizing water paramenters trickier.