Fish Folk Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 After one smaller fry drop, our Tangerine Painted Lyretail Mollys have dropped about 20 fry. We used a cheap breeding box in order to preserve and observe. Interestingly, the fry are a tossed salad of colorations, indicating (if I've got the Punnett terms correct) that the parents are heterozygous, with genetics from a cross between black and koi mollys. Hoping for a successful BAP entry! The 5 that dropped a couple of months earlier are doing great. Two were black, and three were the koi . . . tangerine / painted, etc. Here are a few photos of this batch: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly S Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Nice! Do you have a resource for Molly color genes? I'm preparing to start a Molly breeding project but I haven't found a lot on fish color genetics so far. (Any other tips are appreciated too! I'm trying to figure out how many tanks I need, because I don't want to get into dozens of tanks. I carry buckets of water for the fish tanks from the barn, and it's not my favorite winter pastime lol.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) @Kelly S live bearers (Guppies, Endlers, Platys, Mollys, Swordtails — most common in the hobby) carry genetics that pertain to a number of traits. Most commonly sought after / line bred by breeders are traits related to colors, finnage, and size. So, in this case, we bought 2x male & 2x female Mollys called “Tangerine Painted Lyretail.” You’d think their offspring would look like the parents. However, the parents’ parents were likely a cross between koi and black lyretail mollys. So, tour original stock came out looking all koi... _but_ their fry turn out a tossed salad. Some of the Black Molly fry here will produce more black fry someday. But other black fry will bend back and produce koi fry. Similarly, some koi fry will produce koi offspring. But other koi will produce black offspring. There’s basically four quadrants. Graphic below is from Wikipedia. Edited February 1, 2021 by Fish Folk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly S Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Do we know how many genes control color, and what the dominant/recessive relationships are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 @Kelly S it might be easier to think of this in terms of human hair color. If you’re a red-head, and if you start a family with another red-head, your children will be red-heads IF you, as parents, are not carrying a certain mix of dominant & recessive genes. So, if both of you had _one_ parent who was red-head, but another who was _ brunette, on average, out of four children, you might have 2x red-head, and 2x brunettes. But only one of each pair will pass along the exact same color to their children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 I’m kind of shaky on determining dominant and recessive! 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly S Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I just found this, in case I'm not the only nerd looking for Molly color genetics 😂 https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=jfas.2011.822.827 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 48 minutes ago, Kelly S said: I just found this, in case I'm not the only nerd looking for Molly color genetics 😂 Now that's a proper NERM-level paper! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly S Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Lol! Guilty as charged! I'm finding more on Greg Sage's Select Aquatics blog. My first mollies are 6 days into quarantine now, so I have some time to study! (They have dropped 8 fry already though 😂) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 Just now, Kelly S said: I'm finding more on Greg Sage's Select Aquatics blog. @Kelly S please accept a recommendation: WRITE to the one and only Greg Sage! He is such a generous correspondent. His e-mail replies are LEGENDARY!!! He is one of our hobby-heros. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly S Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I was thinking I need to dig deeper into whatever I can find that he's published, but I imagine he has plenty to occupy his time without being bothered by a novice berm like me. Maybe I'll get braver after I've read and watched everything I can find... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 Here is my favorite interview with Greg Sage. Irene is so energetic. Love how she does these! Greg is an educator — he LOVES to help us all learn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly S Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Thanks I'll check that out! I love Irene's videos. I just subscribed to Greg's youtube channel and discovered he plays the flugelhorn?!?! That's awesome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, Kelly S said: I just subscribed to Greg's youtube channel and discovered he plays the flugelhorn?!?! That's awesome. Yeah! He was a professional touring musician before being a music Ed teacher, then an Administrator, and now a Fish Breeder! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 17 hours ago, Fish Folk said: I’m kind of shaky on determining dominant and recessive! 😂 Dominant and recessive genes are very rare. Most traits are influenced by 100s of genes if not more. Genes are elements in biological 'programs' that usually have quite a bit of redundancy. Gene aren't always 'on' and are very sensitive to environmental conditions. Sometime color or even sex ratios are controlled by temperature or even pH which means epigenetics are possibly involved. Punnet squares are a good place to start, but they are just the beginning of the fascinating and complex ways genes (and non-genes) work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Daniel said: Punnet squares are a good place to start, but they are just the beginning of the fascinating and complex ways genes (and non-genes) work. Do you have any resources you’d recommend for beginner breeders to start getting a better handle on genetics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, Fish Folk said: Do you have any resources you’d recommend for beginner breeders to start getting a better handle on genetics? If you want to learn it for real, nothing beats MIT's Open CourseWare. This is an actual freshman biology course on genetics that you can work through at your own pace. https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-01sc-fundamentals-of-biology-fall-2011/genetics/ For a hobbyist, the best way to learn is to do what you are doing, which is breeding fish and talking to other breeders. Every species has it own quirks. I remember learning about 'pleiotropy' when trying to maintain line of black bettas back in the late 70s and early 80s. You couldn't get viable black females because the black gene was fatal to them. The black gene was pleiotropic meaning it influenced two or more seemingly unrelated phenotypic traits which was fatal in females. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, Daniel said: If you want to learn it for real, nothing beats MIT's Open CourseWare. This is an actual freshman biology course on genetics that you can work through at your own pace. https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-01sc-fundamentals-of-biology-fall-2011/genetics/ For a hobbyist, the best way to learn is to do what you are doing, which is breeding fish and talking to other breeders. Every species has it own quirks. I remember learning about 'pleiotropy' when trying to maintain line of black bettas back in the late 70s and early 80s. You couldn't get viable black females because the black gene was fatal to them. The black gene was pleiotropic meaning it influenced two or more seemingly unrelated phenotypic traits which was fatal in females. Thank you! Strange deal with black bettas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi_Aquatics Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Very interesting genetics! Those mollies look great! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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