clarification/questions about pH, GH, KH (in-depth)

[wilkyb]

Please correct me where I'm wrong, or where I'm not not necessarily right about something. For context, I am building a 30gal guppy/ghost shrimp in a planted potted aquarium. I am using a liquid plant fertilizer and fish food while I cycle the tank to increase it's nitrite levels until I buy all my plants. I also have a DIY co2 system I'll be using later. I've been doing research the past week or so now, and I'd like some help pulling all these threads I've got going in my head together. There's a lot I mention here, so I don't expect a full response by any means!

pH is the measurement of ionized hydrogen particles in the water. The more ionized particles in the water means the pH will be lower. Acidic particles exchange electrons more readily with the alkali particles around them.

If a fish naturally has a high metabolism (versus that of a cichlid, for example), then it makes sense that they can more readily process the acids present in the water. Thus, it leads me to believe that fish with a faster metabolism can process more acids with fewer minerals in the water (softer & more acidic water). Cichlids on the other hand, from what I've read, prefer hard water, and don't react well to acidic/reactive solutions -- they much prefer more stable alkaline environments. Is this accurate?

From what I can gather, the alkali metals (minerals in the water) are what neutralize the acidic nitrites and convert them into nitrates. It makes sense to me that if fish and plants lack these specific metals then they have no way of metabolizing / neutralizing the acids in the water. This also explains the general malaise of fish in mineral deficient water.

KH, as far as I understand it, is both a total amount and also a ratio of carbonates vs bicarbonates in the water. KH describes how hard or soft the water in the aquarium is. Acidic water is often accommodated by soft water, and alkaline is accommodated by hard water. What is the typical golden ratio between carbonates and bicarbonates? What is a healthy total amount of this ratio in an aquarium?

GH, as far as I understand it, is, again, the measurement of the ratio and the total amount of magnesium and calcium suspended in the water of the aquarium. Are carbonates & bicarbonates directly relative to the amount of Magnesium and calcium (among other minerals) in the water? From what I have read, carbonate is produced by magnesium, and bicarbonate is produced by calcium (crushed coral). Is it as simple as this?

Edited January 15, 2021 by wilkyb

[Daniel]

That is a lot to go though so I won't try a deal with everything in one reply but I will start with an easy one.

44 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

Cichlids on the other hand, from what I've read, prefer hard water, and don't react well to acidic/reactive solutions -- they much prefer more stable alkaline environments. Is this accurate?

African cichlids prefer hard water, but the most common cichlids in the hobby are from South America and generally these cichlids prefer soft, sometimes extremely soft water, discus for example.

[Irene]

Here's an article on pH, KH, and GH from Aquarium Co-Op that covers water chemistry at a very high level as it relates to the aquarium hobby: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/ph-gh-kh

I haven't read anything about fish metabolism as related to their pH needs, but I haven't looked into it either. From what I understand, KH corresponds to the total carbonate and bicarbonate ions, and most hobbyists do not have an ability (or need) to measure carbonates separately from bicarbonates. Similarly, GH corresponds to total concentration of ions like calcium and magnesium. I have found freshwater test kits that measure calcium, but not kits for magnesium. 

For guppies and ghost shrimp, probably all you need to focus on is aiming for a pH greater than 7.0 and water hardness of 8 dGH or higher. If you are getting high-end guppies, you can always contact the breeder and just try to match their water. For the purposes of fish keeping, you don't need to go that deep down the water chemistry rabbit hole (unless you really want to, of course).

 

 

[Daniel]

 

50 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

From what I can gather, the alkali metals (minerals in the water) are what neutralize the acidic nitrites and convert them into nitrates. It makes sense to me that if fish and plants lack these specific metals then they have no way of metabolizing / neutralizing the acids in the water. This also explains the general malaise of fish in mineral deficient water.

I love your enthusiasm! And just judging by your profile photo it seems you have a lot of it. 🙂

But back to chemistry stuff. Nitrites are converted to nitrates by bacteria and not by alkali metal in the water. The fish of the Amazon basin which is mostly very demineralized soft water are definitely not noted for a 'general malaise'.

[wilkyb]

59 minutes ago, Irene said:

From what I understand, KH corresponds to the total carbonate and bicarbonate ions, and most hobbyists do not have an ability (or need) to measure carbonates separately from bicarbonates... I have found freshwater test kits that measure calcium, but not kits for magnesium. 

For guppies and ghost shrimp... you don't need to go that deep down the water chemistry rabbit hole (unless you really want to, of course).

 

 

I think I'll learn more useful things down this rabbit hole than some of the others I've been down recently! haha!

The computer nerd in me lusts for DATA!! and the more datas I have to compare relative to one another helps me generate more true/false statements. It's important that I don't give myself the wrong feedback. Kind of like after making a putt on the golf green, for example. If the outcome goes as predicted (the ball goes in the hole), the statements I make afterwards can be the pitfall of my following putts. Was it really my ball contact that produced the outcome? Or was it the small break that I didn't account for which helped direct the ball in to the cup?

I see it the same way with aquariums, where I may have the desired outcome, but if I'm not aware of the concentrations of solutions (ie, the break of the green in golf), then I will be making inaccurate true/false statements. The more data the merrier, I say!

It's interesting that you mention calcium testing kits being more common, but magnesium testing kits are not! Good to know!

But for simplicities sake, I need to establish a pH and water hardness like you describe. I also need to produce more nitrites before I do my planting.


I've watched your ph gh kh video on youtube, too, by the way! thanks for that! *claps*

Edited January 16, 2021 by wilkyb

[wilkyb]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

I love your enthusiasm! And just judging by your profile photo it seems you have a lot of it. 🙂

But back to chemistry stuff. Nitrites are converted to nitrates by bacteria and not by alkali metal in the water. The fish of the Amazon basin which is mostly very demineralized soft water are definitely not noted for a 'general malaise'.

THANKS. That's a photo of my brother, actually, and we look and act very alike. And what kind of egotistical jerk uses a profile of their own photo these days anyways? hahaha!!  I kid, I kid. 😛

Edited January 16, 2021 by wilkyb

[Koi]

Theres also a relationship with ph and ammonia, Somewhere around 6.6 and below ammonia becomes ammonium which is less toxic. Conversely somewhere past ph of 8 ammonia becomes much more toxic. Temperature plays a role in it but I don't know why.

This might interest you if you haven't already seen it.

 

[wilkyb]

18 hours ago, Koi said:

Theres also a relationship with ph and ammonia, Somewhere around 6.6 and below ammonia becomes ammonium which is less toxic. Conversely somewhere past ph of 8 ammonia becomes much more toxic. Temperature plays a role in it but I don't know why.

Interesting... that might help explain goldfish waste being neutralized in waters they prefer below 70'F

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

Interesting... that might help explain goldfish waste being neutralized in waters they prefer below 70'F

I think a more likely explanation is that some of their genes, i.e. creatine kinase, are evolved to operate optimally at cooler temperatures:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102492

In the paper above, carp genes enabled greater cold tolerance in zebra fish.

[Hobbit]

I love it when someone wants to run down a science rabbit hole! I’m going to do my best to iron out some misconceptions for you and I hope others will jump in if I say something wrong or misrepresent something.

One of my favorite quotes is “All of education is a series of consecutively smaller lies.” We oversimplify things when we first teach them and get closer to the truth the more nuanced we get. It sounds like you want to go from the “big lie” stage to the “small lie” stage, so here we go. 😁

On 1/15/2021 at 6:37 PM, wilkyb said:

pH is the measurement of ionized hydrogen particles in the water. The more ionized particles in the water means the pH will be lower. Acidic particles exchange electrons more readily with the alkali particles around them.

Your first sentence is correct. (Yay!) But a correct statement from there would be “The more ionized hydrogen particles in the water means the pH will be lower.” Lots of different atoms can be ionized (i.e. have a charge). pH only refers to hydrogen atoms, or H+. Or if you want to get even more specific, it refers to hydrogen ion activity, or the amount of hydrogen atoms that have the ability to hop from molecule to molecule.

In an acidic solution, molecules aren’t exchanging electrons. They’re exchanging the hydrogen atoms themselves. So for example, if you put sodium bicarbonate in an acid, the bicarbonate will bond with the available H+. (And then that causes other stuff to happen. But anyway.)

We do have a term for how much a molecule is able to exchange electrons. It’s called the redox potential. Redox potential and pH are related and can affect each other, but they’re not the same.

So to correct your last sentence: “Acidic particles exchange hydrogen ions more readily with the alkalai particles around them.”

 

[Hobbit]

On 1/15/2021 at 6:37 PM, wilkyb said:

If a fish naturally has a high metabolism (versus that of a cichlid, for example), then it makes sense that they can more readily process the acids present in the water.

Metabolism refers to all the chemical reactions that an organism can do. A fast metabolism means they can do those reactions faster. 

However, saying an organism has a fast metabolism doesn’t say anything about the kinds of reactions that organism’s cells can carry out.

I imagine most organisms have at least some reactions that can help defend against acids, but organisms that have evolved in an acidic environment will have way more of them. They may also have different structural adaptations (like more mucus—that’s what our stomachs do!) to help stave off acidic damage.

That’s the main factor in whether an organism can survive an acidic environment. It’s about what its body is able to do. If you can’t do the right reactions, it doesn’t matter how fast or slow your metabolism is. 😉

[Hobbit]

On 1/15/2021 at 6:37 PM, wilkyb said:

From what I have read, carbonate is produced by magnesium, and bicarbonate is produced by calcium (crushed coral).

Let me see if I can help uncover a misconception here. Magnesium and calcium are elements. They’re on the periodic table, like hydrogen and oxygen. That means they’re atoms, which can’t be broken up except by nuclear bomb forces. So they’re not producing carbonate and bicarbonate—or anything. They just are.

But where I think you got this idea is that magnesium and calcium are often found with carbonate and bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate is a calcium atom bound to a carbonate molecule, and it’s the main component of crushed coral. Magnesium carbonate is a magnesium atom bound to a carbonate molecule, and is available to buy as a supplement and (I just learned) is what that chalk is made of that climbers and gymnasts use on their hands. 😊

So if you put calcium carbonate and water, the two separate to form calcium (floating on its own) and carbonate (floating on its own). Same with magnesium carbonate.

Hopefully that makes sense. 😄

On 1/15/2021 at 6:37 PM, wilkyb said:

Are carbonates & bicarbonates directly relative to the amount of Magnesium and calcium (among other minerals) in the water?

Kind of. Mostly because it’s really hard for us aquarists to add carbonates/bicarbonates without also adding calcium, magnesium, sodium, or other things that carbonate comes attached to. We can’t buy carbonate by itself because it’s not stable by itself. But attached to other atoms, it comes in all these nice white chalky forms. So to raise our KH (carbonate hardness) we end up raising our GH (general hardness) too.

Okay, @wilkyb you totally nerm sniped me. 😄 I hope some of this was clarifying. Good for you for trying to understand all the chemistry behind this!

[wilkyb]

8 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Your first sentence is correct. (Yay!) But a correct statement from there would be “The more ionized hydrogen particles in the water means the pH will be lower.” Lots of different atoms can be ionized (i.e. have a charge). pH only refers to hydrogen atoms, or H+. Or if you want to get even more specific, it refers to hydrogen ion activity, or the amount of hydrogen atoms that have the ability to hop from molecule to molecule.

Yes, that's what I meant! Thank you for pointing out the inconsistencies in my language! From time to time I may not sufficiently nor consistently use language as I actually meant to/should be. That's why I come to the forum to figure it all out!😄 Thanks for providing so much information btw, I'm only just beginning my reply now as I read along...!

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In an acidic solution, molecules aren’t exchanging electrons. They’re exchanging the hydrogen atoms themselves. So for example, if you put sodium bicarbonate in an acid, the bicarbonate will bond with the available H+. (And then that causes other stuff to happen. But anyway.)

So in an acidic solution, it is hydrogen atoms that are being exchanged... Hydrogen atoms are completely traded from one molecule to another. Is that correct? 

When you mention "in an acidic solution"... from this I infer that the alkali solution then exchange electrons of hydrogen atoms, but not completely the entire hydrogen atom itself?
 

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We do have a term for how much a molecule is able to exchange electrons. It’s called the redox potential. Redox potential and pH are related and can affect each other, but they’re not the same.

Haha! I'm not going to look into redox potential, as fascinating as it sounds. I will learn more at my pace before I inevitably go too deep into the rabbit hole and develop a personality disorder. 🤪

 

Quote

So to correct your last sentence: “Acidic particles exchange hydrogen ions more readily with the alkalai particles around them.”

yes! thanks again for that... can you describe the difference between cations / anions? When you say hydrogen ions in an acidic solution, how does that relate to cations / anions with respect to being acidic or alkali? or am I way out in left field on this one? lol

Edited January 19, 2021 by wilkyb

[wilkyb]

8 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Metabolism refers to all the chemical reactions that an organism can do. A fast metabolism means they can do those reactions faster. 

However, saying an organism has a fast metabolism doesn’t say anything about the kinds of reactions that organism’s cells can carry out.

So then binarily speaking, a fish with a high metabolism has a larger net exchange of (hydrogen atoms, or electrons?) in a shorter amount of time? Does that mean, typically, that fish who prefer acidic solutions have a shorter, but faster lifespan? Life in the Fast Lane!
 

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I imagine most organisms have at least some reactions that can help defend against acids, but organisms that have evolved in an acidic environment will have way more of them. They may also have different structural adaptations (like more mucus—that’s what our stomachs do!) to help stave off acidic damage.

That’s the main factor in whether an organism can survive an acidic environment. It’s about what its body is able to do. If you can’t do the right reactions, it doesn’t matter how fast or slow your metabolism is. 😉

makes sense!

Edited January 19, 2021 by wilkyb

[wilkyb]

8 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Let me see if I can help uncover a misconception here. Magnesium and calcium are elements. They’re on the periodic table, like hydrogen and oxygen. That means they’re atoms, which can’t be broken up except by nuclear bomb forces. So they’re not producing carbonate and bicarbonate—or anything. They just are.

Yup! that makes perfect sense. I was never any good at chemistry in high school; if you couldn't tell 😛

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But where I think you got this idea is that magnesium and calcium are often found with carbonate and bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate is a calcium atom bound to a carbonate molecule, and it’s the main component of crushed coral. Magnesium carbonate is a magnesium atom bound to a carbonate molecule, and is available to buy as a supplement and (I just learned) is what that chalk is made of that climbers and gymnasts use on their hands. 😊

I don't understand the role of carbon in an aquarium. From what I read, carbon is the most abundant solid matter in the universe, and from what I know, carbon composes the large majority of solid particles that make up life.

What I don't understand about carbon is where it sits on the periodic table, and how it interacts with acids and metals. It is non-metallic, and I don't know what the heck that means with respect to the stuff I've been reading about acids & alkalis in aquariums. I don't understand the bicarbonate, carbonate terminology, and I'm eager to figure it out! because it doesn't mean much to me right now
 

Quote

So if you put calcium carbonate and water, the two separate to form calcium (floating on its own) and carbonate (floating on its own). Same with magnesium carbonate.

Hopefully that makes sense. 😄

Kind of. Mostly because it’s really hard for us aquarists to add carbonates/bicarbonates without also adding calcium, magnesium, sodium, or other things that carbonate comes attached to. We can’t buy carbonate by itself because it’s not stable by itself. But attached to other atoms, it comes in all these nice white chalky forms. So to raise our KH (carbonate hardness) we end up raising our GH (general hardness) too.

Okay, @wilkyb you totally nerm sniped me. 😄 I hope some of this was clarifying. Good for you for trying to understand all the chemistry behind this!

why are carbonates/bicarbonates unstable? This means that unless they are kept in check via bonding then on their own they are dangerous to life?

Edited January 19, 2021 by wilkyb

[Hobbit]

Alright! Let’s dive in again. 😃

23 hours ago, wilkyb said:

So in an acidic solution, it is hydrogen atoms that are being exchanged... Hydrogen atoms are completely traded from one molecule to another. Is that correct?

Yes!

23 hours ago, wilkyb said:

When you mention "in an acidic solution"... from this I infer that the alkali solution then exchange electrons of hydrogen atoms, but not completely the entire hydrogen atom itself?

Nope. But good guess. Actually, hydrogen atoms (the whole atom) are being exchanged in both cases.

An acidic solution is one that has extra hydrogen atoms. So whatever you put in it (a fish, your hand, etc) will bond with those extra hydrogens. It sounds innocent, but being bombarded with hydrogen atoms can be bad news.

An alkalai solution is one that has too few hydrogen atoms. So whatever you put in it, it’s likely to get its available hydrogen atoms stripped off. Again, bad news.

So in both cases, hydrogen atoms are being exchanged. In acidic solutions they’re being given away, and in alkalai solutions they’re being taken.

23 hours ago, wilkyb said:

can you describe the difference between cations / anions? When you say hydrogen ions in an acidic solution, how does that relate to cations / anions with respect to being acidic or alkali? or am I way out in left field on this one? lol

Why of course! If only my former students had been asking these questions. 😄

So an atom is a little piece of matter with a nucleus made of protons and neutrons, with electrons spinning around it.

The electrons are negatively charged, and the protons are positively charged. So if an atom has equal numbers of protons and electrons, its overall charge is neutral.

A cation is an atom that’s positively charged. So it has more protons than electrons.

An anion is an atom that’s negatively charged. So it has more electrons than protons.

How does this relate to acidity? Well, you know those hydrogen atoms that acidic and alkalai solutions want to either give or take? Those are hydrogen ions, specifically cations (positively charged atoms). (Though you don’t need to specify it’s a cation—if you say hydrogen ion, everyone will assume it’s positively charged because you almost never find a negatively charged hydrogen.)

Saying an acidic solution has too many hydrogen atoms is correct, but it’s more specific to say it has too many hydrogen ions.

But remember—the terms acid and base/alkalai describe a solution’s ability to either give away or take hydrogen ions. Not other kinds of ions. Other kinds of ions can certainly react with things, but we only use acid or alkalai to describe them if they’re reacting with hydrogen.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Hobbit

[Hobbit]

23 hours ago, wilkyb said:

So then binarily speaking, a fish with a high metabolism has a larger net exchange of (hydrogen atoms, or electrons?) in a shorter amount of time?

So unlike the terms acid and alkalai/base, the term metabolism is not specific to hydrogen atoms. Metabolism refers to tons and tons of reactions. So if an organism is able to protect itself from acids or bases with some sort of reaction, then yes, in general, a higher metabolism would mean it could carry out those reactions faster, because it’s carrying out all its reactions faster.

23 hours ago, wilkyb said:

Does that mean, typically, that fish who prefer acidic solutions have a shorter, but faster lifespan?

So... fish that prefer acidic solutions don’t automatically have a faster metabolism. Fish that prefer acidic solutions have bodies that are able to tolerate acids (able to defend against all those hydrogen ions the solution wants to give it). These fish could have a fast metabolism or a slow metabolism. Metabolism doesn’t matter as to whether they prefer acidic solutions. Remember, fish that prefer alkalai water also have to defend themselves—against their hydrogen ions getting stripped away!

So generally speaking (I’m skipping over a lot of caveats here), having a fast metabolism could help a fish do its defensive reactions faster in either an acidic or an alkalai solution.

However, having a high metabolism is costly. It means you have to eat a lot. So while some fish have evolved to have a high metabolism and faster reactions, others have evolved to have a slower metabolism so they don’t have to eat as much.

Because fish are cold blooded, their metabolism depends not just on how their bodies are structured, but also on their temperature. Reactions happen faster at higher temperatures. So as the tank’s water temp goes up, the fish’s metabolism is going to go up as well.

As for whether fish with a faster metabolism have a shorter life span... I can see why you’d think this, and it makes sense. If you drive a car really fast and really far, it will break down sooner than a car you drove slow. However, scientists have done a lot of experiments and data-gathering trying to see if this is true, and the conclusion they came to is that it’s not true. Here’s one of the more recent studies:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19115965/ 

It turns out that what determines an organism’s life span is just a lot more complicated than any simple if this, then that statement.

[Hobbit]

23 hours ago, wilkyb said:

I don't understand the role of carbon in an aquarium. From what I read, carbon is the most abundant solid matter in the universe, and from what I know, carbon composes the large majority of solid particles that make up life.

What I don't understand about carbon is where it sits on the periodic table, and how it interacts with acids and metals. It is non-metallic, and I don't know what the heck that means with respect to the stuff I've been reading about acids & alkalis in aquariums. I don't understand the bicarbonate, carbonate terminology, and I'm eager to figure it out! because it doesn't mean much to me right now

Okay! So hopefully this will clear things up. “Carbonate” and “bicarbonate” are actually shorthand for two different (related) molecules. Important molecules tend to get shorthand names in chemistry. 😉 

A molecule is a bunch of atoms bonded together. And guess what—molecules can be ions, too! If the overall molecule has more protons than electrons, then it’s positively charged. If it has more electrons than protons overall, then it’s negatively charged.

Carbonate and bicarbonate are both ions and molecules. Carbonate is one carbon and three oxygens bound together, with two extra electrons (giving it a charge of -2).

Bicarbonate is one carbon, one hydrogen, and three oxygens bound together, with one extra electron (giving it a charge of -1).

You’re right about carbon being non-metallic, but that doesn’t matter for this discussion so don’t worry about that.

This video does a great job explaining the relationship between water, bicarbonate, and carbonic acid (another, related molecule). It doesn’t talk about carbonate, but that’s okay. It’s also not about aquariums—it’s about the human body! Because just like carbonate helps control the acidity of our aquariums, it also helps control the acidity of our blood. Cool right?? (Watch until 3:45–after that he starts talking more about anatomy).

Aqua pros also has a good YouTube video on this topic (one that does talk about carbonate) called “Aquarium CO2 Water Chemistry.” I don’t think the coop currently has a video on the bicarbonate buffer system yet, but if they do I hope someone links it here!

Once you have a grasp on what bicarbonate does in our aquariums, I recommend you re-watch @Irene’s video on pH, KH, and GH and hopefully it will all come together.

On 1/18/2021 at 10:57 PM, wilkyb said:

why are carbonates/bicarbonates unstable? This means that unless they are kept in check via bonding then on their own they are dangerous to life?

Carbonates and bicarbonates are unstable in that they can bond and release hydrogens really easily, but that doesn’t make them dangerous. They’re unstable in a really gentle way. 😄

Now if you add them to a really strong acid, they’ll gobble up all those hydrogens REALLY fast and that can be dramatic and potentially dangerous. Add them to a weak acid like vinegar and you get some fun bubbles! Add them to water (which is relatively neutral) and you won’t even see anything. They’re reacting, but just here and there where they find an extra hydrogen.

Hopefully that helps!

[Streetwise]

@Hobbit, you are an excellent teacher! Thanks for the chemistry review.

[wilkyb]

15 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Actually, hydrogen atoms (the whole atom) are being exchanged in both cases.

If a hydrogen atom has only one electron, it would mean that in the exchange of a single electron from a hydrogen ion to a different particle, the hydrogen atom will take a molecular form with whatever it may exchange it's electron with. Is this accurate?

Also, when I say hydrogen ion, "ion" denotes that the particle is charged either positively or negatively; and when I say hydrogen atom, it means it is not ionized (neutral). So then in a pH less than 7, there are simply more total hydrogen atoms, and in a pH higher than 7 there are fewer total hydrogen atoms.

With respect to the pH, what is the most common state for a hydrogen atom to be in an aquarium? (anion/cation/neutral)

15 hours ago, Hobbit said:

A cation is an atom that’s positively charged. So it has more protons than electrons.

An anion is an atom that’s negatively charged. So it has more electrons than protons.

hydrogen doesn't have a proton; how does can it possibly be in any state but anionic? does this lead us down the rabbit hole of quantum mechanics? hahaha! best we divert that talk for the time being

I think I understand why your username is Hobbit... who may very well be living in a hole... LMAO (for the record so do I)

 

15 hours ago, Hobbit said:

But remember—the terms acid and base/alkalai describe a solution’s ability to either give away or take hydrogen ions. Not other kinds of ions.

Right. I think that hydrogen is the exception to the trading of electrons, kind of like I've described above: because hydrogen has only 1 electron, the trading of a single electron commits the hydrogen particle to trading the entire atom to the particle it exchanges that single electron with. Is this accurate?

 

15 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Other kinds of ions can certainly react with things, but we only use acid or alkalai to describe them if they’re reacting with hydrogen.

fascinating, so then pO, for example, would to examine the qualities of the oxygen we breathe? and then we'd be measuring trace amount of particles that are airborn, instead of waterborn...

of what use would it be to examine the quality of oxygen, instead of hydrogen, in an aquarium, being that water is H2O? What is the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms in water? (massive, I imagine)

Edited January 20, 2021 by wilkyb

[wilkyb]

14 hours ago, Hobbit said:

So unlike the terms acid and alkalai/base, the term metabolism is not specific to hydrogen atoms. Metabolism refers to tons and tons of reactions. So if an organism is able to protect itself from acids or bases with some sort of reaction, then yes, in general, a higher metabolism would mean it could carry out those reactions faster, because it’s carrying out all its reactions faster.

check✔️

14 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Fish that prefer acidic solutions have bodies that are able to tolerate acids (able to defend against all those hydrogen ions the solution wants to give it). These fish could have a fast metabolism or a slow metabolism. Metabolism doesn’t matter as to whether they prefer acidic solutions... having a fast metabolism could help a fish do its defensive reactions faster in either an acidic or an alkalai solution.

check✔️

 

15 hours ago, Hobbit said:

fish are cold blooded

check✔️

 

15 hours ago, Hobbit said:

As for whether fish with a faster metabolism have a shorter life span... I can see why you’d think this, and it makes sense. If you drive a car really fast and really far, it will break down sooner than a car you drove slow. However, scientists have done a lot of experiments and data-gathering trying to see if this is true, and the conclusion they came to is that it’s not true. Here’s one of the more recent studies:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19115965/ 

cool! I'll read that when I find the time

[wilkyb]

14 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Carbonate and bicarbonate are both ions and molecules. Carbonate is one carbon and three oxygens bound together, with two extra electrons (giving it a charge of -2).

Bicarbonate is one carbon, one hydrogen, and three oxygens bound together, with one extra electron (giving it a charge of -1).

You’re right about carbon being non-metallic, but that doesn’t matter for this discussion so don’t worry about that.

so if magnesium & calcium are the more abundant metals in an aquarium, and their atomic numbers are 12 & 20, respectively, then carbon with an atomic number of 6 means.... that... carbon is capable of bonding with more ionized particles total? So carbons bond with oxygen and hydrogen in larger quantities than what we would see in metals?

14 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Carbonates and bicarbonates are unstable in that they can bond and release hydrogens really easily, but that doesn’t make them dangerous. They’re unstable in a really gentle way. 😄

Add them to a weak acid like vinegar and you get some fun bubbles! Add them to water (which is relatively neutral) and you won’t even see anything. They’re reacting, but just here and there where they find an extra hydrogen.

yaay bubbles

[Hobbit]

1 hour ago, wilkyb said:

hydrogen doesn't have a proton

Aha!!! We have found one of the core misconceptions!!

Hydrogen DOES have a proton. In its neutral state, it has one proton and one electron. So as a cation (H+), it doesn’t have any electrons at all. It is simply a proton all by itself.

Now that you know that hydrogen has a proton, hopefully that clears up a lot.

I haven’t read the rest of your replies yet, but I just had to jump on this piece of knowledge because I think it’s one of the links we’ve been missing. 😃

[Fish Folk]

Dear wilkyb, this is not a proper "nermhole" answer . . . just some cook-to-taste this-and-that in response to your original post.

Obviously, every aquarist's water arrives from its source to our aquarium(s) as a chemical composition with multiple factors to bear in mind. By far, most freshwater aquatic life thrives between 6.0 and 8.0 pH. Aquarists need to have their water's pH  tested to anticipate what relationship their tank life will have to it. Plant life (and plant decomposition) tends to lower slowly over time. Decomposition produces some humic acid in the water column. An aquarists's water also has a certain amount of hardness, which determines the resiliency of maintaining a particular pH over and against suddenly crashing it as acids build up. This is usually called "buffer" in aquarium conversation. There are other interesting -- and occasionally crucial -- issues with water, including amounts of dissolved gasses, etc.

Once a tank begins cycling, it is the colonization of beneficial bacteria that transitions Ammonia -- the nearly chemical form of waste from pH 6.4-up -- into Nitrite, and then another bacteria colonization effort that moves Nitrite through to Nitrate. Plants will slowly consume Nitrate, but generally are not added in abundance needed to "clean" the water perfectly. For this reason, water changes are done once a cycle is complete, and aquatic life are added and fed. 

Adding CO2 leads to major pH complications, since it is essentially cutting into the buffer as it works through the tank. What can happen (has happened for us) is that a tank pH will be resting on a plateau, so-to-speak, as CO2 is being added, but will suddenly run out of "buffer" (hardness) and crash into an acid vat (i.e. going from 7.8 pH to 6.0 overnight). Fish die . . . 

So, as a general bulwark against "soft water" (i.e. low hardness) water sources, it is frequently advised to add an amount of crushed coral to help stabilize a tank. Our water is soft -- so we add this to certain tanks, along with using shells (which look unusual in a freshwater tank). 

Once you get into plants, there are a number of other fascinating chemical factors that can cause a plant to thrive or die off. I always laugh out loud on Cory's livestreams when he, speaking as a plant in someone's fish tank, says, "You FOOL! I need more BORON!"  

Temperature, flow and aeration really affect things as well in an aquarium. I think you'll enjoy chasing this whole thread for a long time. However, most aquarists will probably discover new nuances to things if they allow a chance to proceed, step by step, from the elementary organic / chemical matters (e.g. getting a strong biological colony started to power through the nitrogen cycle) to secondary issues of pH, hardness, etc. before dialing in more acutely. 

Best to you! Always enjoy learning . . . 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Fish Folk

[Streetwise]

@Hobbit, do you see a symmetry with the role of tannins in water with higher-pH and minerals, compared to the function of crushed coral in lower-pH and soft water?

Edited January 20, 2021 by Streetwise