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DarthRevan
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Hey everyone, I found out about this hobby from a random YouTube video and since then I’ve gotten really interested.

I’ve been doing research for like 2 months now and as soon as my lease is up (don’t want to get a tank going then have to move immediately lol) I’m planning on starting a planted tank. Based on what I’ve seen I would really like a 20 gallon long tank to scape.

I’d love a betta and some smaller tank mates with it like rummy nose tetras and harlequin rasboras and cherry shrimp (for cleanup). I’m just not sure how many I can do of each. Now I know the betta might eat some of the shrimp but after looking into it, it seems like the shrimp should be ok if they’re the first in the tank, are allowed to grow, the betta was in a community tank already at the pet store, the other fish are fed enough and the shrimp have hiding places. So that aside, would 6-7 shrimp, 7-10 tetras, 7-10 rasboras, and a betta be ok in a tank like that? I want a lot of fish and variety but I don’t want to overstock it and make them miserable. Also I know this is a lot for a new person, it’s not going to all be at once but it is my end goal for my first tank. Any thoughts/constructive criticism are welcome and appreciated 🙂

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Welcome to the hobby! My fist question is, what is your ph & hardness? Also, what kind of filter are you planning on using? If you do an overkill filter like a Fluval 207 - 307 you would be able to do the stocking you want. If you go with a filter rated for 20g, you'd be barely overstocking. The shrimp are a great cleanup crew and be very beneficial. All the fish you want are compatible and would make a great community. I'd recommend sacrificing a few of your schooling fish and do a couple cleanup crew fish instead. Small plecos and loaches are great! You don't have to, just an idea. I hope you learn a lot here and it took me 10 years of fish keeping before finding this forum so you are getting a great head start. Happy fishkeeping!

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25 minutes ago, Patrick M. Bodega Aquatics said:

Welcome to the hobby! My fist question is, what is your ph & hardness? Also, what kind of filter are you planning on using? If you do an overkill filter like a Fluval 207 - 307 you would be able to do the stocking you want. If you go with a filter rated for 20g, you'd be barely overstocking. The shrimp are a great cleanup crew and be very beneficial. All the fish you want are compatible and would make a great community. I'd recommend sacrificing a few of your schooling fish and do a couple cleanup crew fish instead. Small plecos and loaches are great! You don't have to, just an idea. I hope you learn a lot here and it took me 10 years of fish keeping before finding this forum so you are getting a great head start. Happy fishkeeping!

Thank you! That is a good question haha, I haven’t even gotten a tank yet I’ve just been planning things out. Do you mean for my tap water? I’d have to test it, I know water in Arizona can be hard but I’m not sure of pH. 

For the filter I haven’t decided yet either but I definitely want a little overkill, I think the general rule is the filter should be able to process at least 3x the quantity of the tank per hour right? So maybe like a 70-80 gallon per hour filter to be safe? Or would one rated for a 20 be good in combination with lots and lots of plants? That was my original plan. 
 

Haha I did a lotttt of research because of the reputation of bettas. I’m glad someone as experienced as you thinks my choices are a good idea, it gives me more confidence to get started!
 

That is a great idea for the extra cleanup crew, I was actually thinking of that, but I wasn’t sure if I got some bristlenose plecos or something similar if they would out-compete the shrimp and then all my cleanup crew is starving lol. I guess I could always pop in an algae tab or something for them if they do their job too well 😂

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@DarthRevan just a suggestion before you do anything hit Youtube & watch videos from the CO-OP, Prime Time Aquatics and KG Tropicals just to name a few.They cover the how & why of testing water parameters, cycling a tank properly, filtration and stocking options. there's a lot of info in those videos to help you avoid some expensive mistakes. Good luck.

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@PaulI’ve been watching all of them actually lol! I started a couple months ago and started going a lot deeper into it in the last month. I’ve found myself watching Aquarium Co-op (how I found this forum!) and KG Tropicals the most. My issue being new is there’s so many differing opinions out there. Some people say you don’t need to filter a heavily planted tank at all, some say you need a light filter, some say you need a filter equivalent to a non-planted tank... it makes it a little hard lol. I plan to absolutely pack my tank with plants so I’m not sure how much filtration I need. 

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Personally I wouldn't do shrimp with bettas. It might work, but that's a big might. I get a colony to establish in a peaceful community tank so I can imagine throwing a predator in there and it going well. 

If you do it plant extremely heavy and let them establish themselves for a few generations before introducing the betta. 

As for filtration. The tricky part of a 20 long is getting good flow throughout the tank. I'd probably do 2 sponge filters. One on each side. You can probably run them off 1 nano air pump. The sponge filter is also safer than a HOB for both shrimp and bettas, but a prefilter sponge will make a HOB just as safe. 

Edited by ChefConfit
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re: filtration, when I first got into the hobby I overfiltered so much (like, an Aquaclear 50 + kit HOB for a barely stocked 29g), but after coming back to fishkeeping...I probably underfilter. The exception is the goldfish tank, which has two HOBs, but one is primarily for filter floss/seeding sponges for new tanks. I'd like to get that on just one sponge filter one day to keep the energy cost down, but I'm going to use what I have for now. All of my tanks are planted, and I've been struggling to keep nitrates above 20, so I have to dose ferts about twice a week in the most heavily planted one.

(also, I love your username.)

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@DarthRevan you're new to the hobby, you need to learn to walk before you start running. If you don't know what you're doing filterless aquariums will be nothing but a headache. I have a planted 20L stocked with 5 Apistogramma nijsseni, 5 Bronze Corys,  some tetras and a couple of Otto's. That's considerably less bio load than you're thinking about putting in your tank and I filter the tank with a sponge filter & a Penguin Pro 175 HOB placed at either end of the tank. 

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21 minutes ago, ChefConfit said:

If you do it plant extremely heavy and let them establish themselves for a few generations before introducing the betta. 

As for filtration. The tricky part of a 20 long is getting good flow throughout the tank. I'd probably do 2 sponge filters. One on each side. You can probably run them off 1 nano air pump. The sponge filter is also safer than a HOB for both shrimp and bettas, but a prefilter sponge will make a HOB just as safe. 

That was my plan so I can get the hang of things with some easily replaceable shrimp first, then start adding fish when I feel ready. Also so the shrimp can get big enough that a fish wouldn’t mess with them much. 
With the sponge filters, are they fairly easy to hide with plants and how involved is cleaning them? 
 

19 minutes ago, wendypizza said:

re: filtration, when I first got into the hobby I overfiltered so much (like, an Aquaclear 50 + kit HOB for a barely stocked 29g), but after coming back to fishkeeping...I probably underfilter. The exception is the goldfish tank, which has two HOBs, but one is primarily for filter floss/seeding sponges for new tanks. I'd like to get that on just one sponge filter one day to keep the energy cost down, but I'm going to use what I have for now. All of my tanks are planted, and I've been struggling to keep nitrates above 20, so I have to dose ferts about twice a week in the most heavily planted one.

(also, I love your username.)

Lol thank you, one of my favorite Sith Lords! So in your case you ended up over-filtering and had trouble keeping nutrients in the water for the plants? That was one of my main concerns. 

 

19 minutes ago, Paul said:

@DarthRevan you're new to the hobby, you need to learn to walk before you start running. If you don't know what you're doing filterless aquariums will be nothing but a headache. I have a planted 20L stocked with 5 Apistogramma nijsseni, 5 Bronze Corys,  some tetras and a couple of Otto's. That's considerably less bio load than you're thinking about putting in your tank and I filter the tank with a sponge filter & a Penguin Pro 175 HOB placed at either end of the tank. 

Oh yeah I definitely agree. I for sure am not doing a non filtered tank it seems like you have to get a LOT right to balance the ecosystem out. I want to take it slow and do it right, so I definitely don’t plan on putting all of that stuff in the tank right away, just starting with some shrimp and lots of plants. Then moving up to tetras/rasboras, then the betta. If I even get the betta, I probably will just stick with the small guys for a while. So even with lots of plants you still recommend heavily over filtering? Or is it more to get good water flow?

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@DarthRevanthe only tank I don't have two filters in is a 5 gallon which has a sponge in it. All my other tanks have two filters.All the tanks up to the 40 breeder have a sponge filter & a HOB the 120 has two canisters. One of the reasons I run two filters in my tanks is redundancy but it also insures there's enough flow to eliminate dead spots. In the smaller tanks the different filter types are used to take advantage of their strengths. Sponge filters are really good at biological filtration but not so much with mechanical filtration so the HOBs are setup to do primarily mechanical filtration.

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2 hours ago, DarthRevan said:

Lol thank you, one of my favorite Sith Lords! So in your case you ended up over-filtering and had trouble keeping nutrients in the water for the plants? That was one of my main concerns.

Back then my problem was not using a strong enough light (I have an unconscious affinity for tall tanks, I guess) nor was I dosing enough ferts, so the plants were just kind of stagnating, lol. This time, I wanted to take it slowly and not go wild with filtration since it's expensive, so I just keep testing water. I'd rather buy an extra sponge filter as needed, than start with a giant HOB that blows my poor fish and salvinia around.

In my current setup that's eating nitrates like crazy, I've got a strong light, planted tank substrate, and liquid ferts. The sponge filter is too large, but the flow is so minimal that it's kind of turned into an oversized eyesore that I'll be glad to move into a larger tank soon. At the moment the stocking is low, with 6x adult ricefish, a goldfish, shrimp, and snails, but I'm overfeeding because the ricefish are breeding, I want the shrimp and snails to breed, and the goldfish is a growing boy.

My opinions and rambling about my tanks aside, if you haven't listened to it yet, I recommend this video by Cory, as well as one I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think it's about changing water too much.

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A couple years ago I had a 20 long running as my only tank with a betta, a dozen-ish harlequin rasboras, and some amano shrimp. I really like 20 longs and think they're the perfect tank for the "betta community" setup

I'd recommend picking one of either the rummy's or the harlequins. A 20 long is a bit small to do two schooling species in my opinion, but if your heart is set on both I think about 7 of each could work.

Harlequin rasboras are one of my favorite schooling fish and for the several years I've been keeping them now I've known them to be completely peaceful, beautiful little fish and couldn't recommend them enough. When I kept them with a betta I didn't have any fin nipping. I have little experience with rummies and have never kept them with a betta so I can't speak to that.

As for shrimp if all you want is a cleanup crew amanos might be better than cherries, they get bigger and a betta might be less inclined to attack a larger, less colorful shrimp. Cherries could work just as well though depending on the betta, but I don't have experience with them either.

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10 hours ago, Patrick M. Bodega Aquatics said:

 If you do an overkill filter like a Fluval 207 - 307 you would be able to do the stocking you want.

I'd think a canister would be too strong for a betta... Maybe not if you put a spray bar along the entire back of the tank? Could do it with a honey/dwarf gourami, but if OP's heart is set on a betta this might not be the best idea

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I have a few 20 longs set up, I use two of the medium size sponge filters from the co-op, one in each back corner. There is plenty of filtration between the two filters, plus if you are planting the tank, you'll have the plants to help with water quality. You ask about having a group of tetras, another group of rasboras, some shrimp and a betta. Can it be done, yes it can, more so if you use some of the smaller species of tetras and rasboras, such as maybe ember or green neon tetras and chili or green kubotai rasbora.  I would recommend putting the shrimp in and one of the groups of schooling fish, let the shrimp establish for 6 months or so, then add the betta. You may find that you like just having the one kind of schooling fish, sometimes in a smaller tank one nice school of one species looks nice rather than having a couple different species.

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11 hours ago, Paul said:

@DarthRevanOne of the reasons I run two filters in my tanks is redundancy but it also insures there's enough flow to eliminate dead spots. In the smaller tanks the different filter types are used to take advantage of their strengths. Sponge filters are really good at biological filtration but not so much with mechanical filtration so the HOBs are setup to do primarily mechanical filtration.

Ok so a sponge for bio filtration and a hang on back for water flow? That sounds like a good combo. I was hoping not to have to get a canister filter because they’re expensive lol. I know some things with this, especially starting out are going to be expensive but I’m trying to reduce costs where I can without sacrificing the quality of life for the fish and plants. 

 

8 hours ago, wendypizza said:

Back then my problem was not using a strong enough light. I'd rather buy an extra sponge filter as needed, than start with a giant HOB that blows my poor fish and salvinia around.

In my current setup that's eating nitrates like crazy, I've got a strong light, planted tank substrate, and liquid ferts. The sponge filter is too large, but the flow is so minimal that it's kind of turned into an oversized eyesore that I'll be glad to move into a larger tank soon. At the moment the stocking is low.

My opinions and rambling about my tanks aside, if you haven't listened to it yet, I recommend this video by Cory, as well as one I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think it's about changing water too much.

Thank you for the video that helps a lot! I was trying to avoid a really strong filter for that reason, because from what I read bettas like to sit near the surface and they can’t do that if they’re getting shoved around by a current. And the lighting was another dilemma since the fish I was looking at don’t like bright light especially bettas. I was thinking do a bright light anyway for the plants but then put a bunch of caves and shady spots for the betta to hang out, and maybe a group of small floating plants. 

 

4 hours ago, Frost said:

A couple years ago I had a 20 long running as my only tank with a betta, a dozen-ish harlequin rasboras, and some amano shrimp. I really like 20 longs and think they're the perfect tank for the "betta community" setup

I'd recommend picking one of either the rummy's or the harlequins. A 20 long is a bit small to do two schooling species in my opinion, but if your heart is set on both I think about 7 of each could work.

Harlequin rasboras are one of my favorite schooling fish and for the several years I've been keeping them now I've known them to be completely peaceful, beautiful little fish and couldn't recommend them enough. When I kept them with a betta I didn't have any fin nipping. I have little experience with rummies and have never kept them with a betta so I can't speak to that.

As for shrimp if all you want is a cleanup crew amanos might be better than cherries, they get bigger and a betta might be less inclined to attack a larger, less colorful shrimp. Cherries could work just as well though depending on the betta, but I don't have experience with them either.

That’s good to hear, I wasn’t 100% sure that would be a good tank but I love the length of it because it gives you more room to create a scene in the tank rather than just like a rock and a piece of wood lol. Plus the fish have more room to swim back and forth. 

I might start out with just one since I’m so new at this and then go from there. I want a lot of variety to keep things interesting but if two schooling fish are too much I don’t want to make them miserable just for my enjoyment lol. I went with a 20L so I could have a good variety and then move up to that plus a betta as the centerpiece. As far as the rummy’s, KGTropicals has a video of their 10 favorite betta tank mates and they were #1 lol so I think they’d get along fine, but if the general consensus is having two schools of fish would stress out the betta or themselves then I’ll just stick to one. My main concern is how many fish can I feasibly have in a 20L, I don’t want to overstock. 
 

I was thinking about Amanos since they’re bigger but I like the red pop of the cherry shrimp. I’m starting with just shrimp anyway so if they can get established in there and then be ok with the schooling fish then I think it’ll work. As long as they have hiding spots. And if the betta ends up eating them then I guess I’ll just go with only plecos instead. Not that I want to feed cherry shrimp to my betta but if thats what happens then I’ll know lol. I looked up a lot of articles and YouTube videos and the general rule seems to be they have a good chance to live together if the betta was raised in a community tank, the shrimp were already there and are already established when you add the betta, and if they have plenty of things like Java moss to hide in. But you never know with a living ecosystem lol. 

4 hours ago, Andy's Fish Den said:

I have a few 20 longs set up, I use two of the medium size sponge filters from the co-op, one in each back corner. There is plenty of filtration between the two filters, plus if you are planting the tank, you'll have the plants to help with water quality. You ask about having a group of tetras, another group of rasboras, some shrimp and a betta.
 

 I would recommend putting the shrimp in and one of the groups of schooling fish, let the shrimp establish for 6 months or so, then add the betta. You may find that you like just having the one kind of schooling fish, sometimes in a smaller tank one nice school of one species looks nice rather than having a couple different species.

With the two sponge filter set up is there enough water flow to keep it from stagnating too much? I’m trying to go heavily planted, low maintenance with this setup. 
 

That was my plan, let the shrimp establish and the smaller schooling fish as well, then think about adding a betta. Also that gives enough time for the plants to grow in nicely. I was going to start out with a school of like 7 rasboras and the shrimp, then see about adding the tetras. And then depending on how that goes maybe the betta. But other people have been saying a 20L might not be big enough for two schools of fish. The good thing is I haven’t bought anything yet I’m just trying to see what would work best for what I want so I can always change something up.

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@DarthRevan the sponge filters are very easy to clean just take it out while doing a water change take off the sponge and swish it around in the old tank water and give it a few squeezes. 

The coop ones are green except for the black sponge so they are very easy to hide. Mine is hidden by the hardscape except for the uplift tube which is green and blends in with plants. 

They provide a surprising amount of flow and it should be plenty for your tank, but gentleenough for the betta. 

It's not just about size with the shrimp because a betta will still go after a full grown cherry shrimp. Make sure they are reproducing reliably and have a ton of places to hid that the betta can't access so that any lost to the betta are replaced. 

I would let the shrimp establish by themselves for at least a month or two before adding anything, because even whatever small schooling fish you settle on will go after the baby shrimp. The most important part of Maki g a set up like this work is getting the shrimp colony well established before adding anything else. 

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@ChefConfitThat is awesome to hear and super helpful, I will definitely look into sponge filters. Plus I know those are good for the shrimp since they can’t get sucked up lol. 
 

Ah ok, I thought they wouldn’t go after them if they’re too big. Someone else suggested Amanos, I wonder if they would have the same issue. And I definitely want to give them time to get established. My plan was plant the tank, let it cycle and get good growth, then add shrimp and wait like 2-3 months before adding the smaller fish. The betta is definitely going in last once everything else is established. 

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17 hours ago, DarthRevan said:

I know water in Arizona can be hard but I’m not sure of pH. 

You may be able to find a detailed water quality report for your county.  I just found one for mine, and it cleared up some things for me!  You may have to dig around a bit.  In my case, there is a "layman-friendly" water quality report that only contains things like chlorine, fluorine, turbidity, and bacteria counts, and (on a totally different website) a more detailed one that has water hardness, alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and a bunch of other stuff.  Obviously, you'll still want to test your water, etc., once you get started, but this water quality report may help you in the planning stage.  

It's vastly easier (and cheaper) to adapt the fish you keep to your water conditions, rather than the other way around.  I have super-soft, slightly acidic water, so I plan to keep fish that naturally prefer those conditions.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

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39 minutes ago, Jess said:

 

You may be able to find a detailed water quality report for your county.  I just found one for mine, and it cleared up some things for me!  You may have to dig around a bit.  In my case, there is a "layman-friendly" water quality report that only contains things like chlorine, fluorine, turbidity, and bacteria counts, and (on a totally different website) a more detailed one that has water hardness, alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and a bunch of other stuff.  Obviously, you'll still want to test your water, etc., once you get started, but this water quality report may help you in the planning stage.  

It's vastly easier (and cheaper) to adapt the fish you keep to your water conditions, rather than the other way around.  I have super-soft, slightly acidic water, so I plan to keep fish that naturally prefer those conditions.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

Thank you! I did find a report on my city’s water quality but it was kind of hard to read, maybe I’ll have to search more for a layman’s report haha. That is something I didn’t consider though, I thought matching the water parameters for the fish would just be a matter of conditioning the water first with some chemicals lol. I will definitely keep that in mind, thanks for your input!!

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1 hour ago, DarthRevan said:

I thought matching the water parameters for the fish would just be a matter of conditioning the water first with some chemicals lol

It can be!  It's just a question of whether you want to.  In my case, I am adding my tank to my already-busy life and I want it to be a peaceful, pleasant source of joy and relaxation.  When I kept a tank 15-20 yrs ago, I was always tinkering with my water to get it to be how I wanted it to be for the fish I wanted to keep.  Now I want to minimize the tinkering.  But it definitely can be done - you can raise GH using something like Seachem Equilibrium and raise KH by adding crushed coral.  You can lower both by using RO water that you remineralize yourself to be exactly what you want.  It's just an added level of complexity (and expense), and only you can decide if that is worth it to you! 

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Harlequin rasboras sound perfect as part of your crew. I think they're perfect for a 20L as they love horizontal space a lot more than vertical! I have 7 (lost one to injury) and 12 more in quarantine. I suggest at least 10, as my 7 seem to get into a lot of spats. This goes on all day. 

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4 hours ago, ChefConfit said:

Softening water is relatively easy (get a jug of RODI water and cut your tap water with it. It's an added expense but not nearly as bad as having soft water and trying to make it hard. 

 

3 hours ago, Jess said:

It can be!  It's just a question of whether you want to.  In my case, I am adding my tank to my already-busy life and I want it to be a peaceful, pleasant source of joy and relaxation.  When I kept a tank 15-20 yrs ago, I was always tinkering with my water to get it to be how I wanted it to be for the fish I wanted to keep.  Now I want to minimize the tinkering.  But it definitely can be done - you can raise GH using something like Seachem Equilibrium and raise KH by adding crushed coral.  You can lower both by using RO water that you remineralize yourself to be exactly what you want.  It's just an added level of complexity (and expense), and only you can decide if that is worth it to you! 

 

3 hours ago, Maggie said:

Harlequin rasboras sound perfect as part of your crew. I think they're perfect for a 20L as they love horizontal space a lot more than vertical! I have 7 (lost one to injury) and 12 more in quarantine. I suggest at least 10, as my 7 seem to get into a lot of spats. This goes on all day. 

 

Thank you both for the info! I’ll still need to test my water first to see where it’s at, but I think that’s definitely worth an added expense.
 

And thank you Maggie for the info on the rasboras! So you’re saying they keep fighting each other? I didn’t know they did that lol, let me know how it goes after you add the others! If I need to add more I definitely will, they seem like awesome fish. 

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22 hours ago, Paul said:

@DarthRevan you're new to the hobby, you need to learn to walk before you start running. If you don't know what you're doing filterless aquariums will be nothing but a headache. I have a planted 20L stocked with 5 Apistogramma nijsseni, 5 Bronze Corys,  some tetras and a couple of Otto's. That's considerably less bio load than you're thinking about putting in your tank and I filter the tank with a sponge filter & a Penguin Pro 175 HOB placed at either end of the tank. 

In my 20L, I’m running 2 sponge filters, with 4 apistos, a few panda corys, a bristle nose pleco and a few plattys that needed some room to over-winter.  I’ve got water sprite, crypts, and some Java fern, and it is bay far my easiest tank.  

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