How many pumps of Easygreen yield 20ppm? Or can Adam do math...

[AdamTill]

Hi folks,

I’m doing a bit of learning about fertilizer methods, and want to get a better handle on what I’m currently doing. I’m dosing Easygreen into my oto breeder tank, and I want to figure out exactly how much.

Apologies in advance for mixed units, and I'm not even pretending to remember significant digits from school.

In a nutshell, I want to know how many pumps of Easygreen it would take to achieve a nitrate level of 20ppm in a 30 gallon tank. Low end of recommended dose, and a means of calibrating my brain.

20ppm means that out of every theoretical 1,000,000 parts in a volume, 20 of those parts would be nitrate.

So if 30 gallons of water weighs 113562.3g as mass (1 US gallon of water = 3,785.41 grams ), I want 2.271246g of that to be nitrate (113562.3*20/1,000,000).

The label says Easygreen is 2.66% nitrogen. That's not nitrate, so we need to do an extra calc.

The atomic mass of nitrogen and oxygen are 14.01 and 16 respectively, so nitrate is 22.59% nitrogen by mass (14.01/(14.01+3*16)*100).

Getting back to our 2.271246g of theoretical nitrate above, that means we need to add 0.51307g of nitrogen specifically (2.271246*0.2259).

So in a nutshell, how many pumps of Easygreen add 0.51307g of nitrogen?

2.66% by weight would be 0.0266 g/mL assuming Easygreen is roughly the same weight as water (1g/ml).

So if 1 pump is 1 mL, and 1 mL contains 0.0266g of nitrogen, does that make 0.51307g total nitrogen/0.0266g nitrogen per pump or 19.3 pumps in 30 gallons make 20ppm from scratch?

That seems high, so I think my math is wrong somewhere, but I can't see where.

The rotalabutterfly calc site says 3.7g of KNO3 in 30 gals yields 20ppm, as a check. The molecular weight of KNO3 is about 101 vs 62 for nitrate, which checks well against my value since 3.7*62\101 is 2.27, which I calculated above. I’m just not sure on the pumps of liquid fert.

Thanks in advance for anyone’s time!

[Koi]

On 7/22/2020 at 11:47 AM, Bob said:

Here you go: 

NO3 - 3ppm

PO4 - 0.162

K - 2.01

Mg - 0.18

Fe - 0.034

B - 0.004

Mn - 0.01

Mo - 0.0002

zn - 0.002

I'm not even gonna pretend I can even understand 3/4 of what you just said but I think this might help you a little. This is per dose.

I'll at least mention that growing plants/fertilization is much easier than you think its just comes down whatever method you choose to pick. I take it your strengths are in science and since you seem accustomed to using the nutrient calculator, dry ferts sound like something more your alley. Anyways, I hope the analysis has the information you need.

[Brandy]

We have been down this road before.

I think what you really want to know is more easily arrived at empirically. I have no nitrate naturally occurring in my water, and despite a fairly heavily stocked 29g, I never have any detectible nitrate due to bioload--I have a VERY heavily planted tank. Like an underwater jungle in a box. It takes at least 4 pumps to get over 10ppm from a "scratch" for me, and I think probably 4-5 to get to 20+, which in my tank would remain above 10ppm for about 3 days. If you do not have an underwater jungle, you probably need less.

[AdamTill]

Thanks folks , that thread is at least attempting the same calc (my searches hadn’t found it). I’m going to have to look at their numbers a little more closely since I’m not sure I quite follow some of the conversions, but that helps.

I’m not worried about growing plants (that part I have down fine from a practical value), but rather just to see how what I do now translates into numbers.

I have a few applications that are a little off the beaten path (ie, figuring out a nitrate free fert for goldfish tanks etc), so that’s the ultimate goal.

[Brandy]

My conversions were pre coffee and not to be trusted at all. I did at least try to do the math you are attempting. 

[Brandy]

But if you make the math match real life I very much want to know!!😎

[AdamTill]

Lol, will try! Think it might have to wait for another kick tomorrow in front of the PC with excel open. iPad math is extra annoying.

[Koi]

41 minutes ago, AdamTill said:

Thanks folks , that thread is at least attempting the same calc (my searches hadn’t found it). I’m going to have to look at their numbers a little more closely since I’m not sure I quite follow some of the conversions, but that helps.

I’m not worried about growing plants (that part I have down fine from a practical value), but rather just to see how what I do now translates into numbers.

I have a few applications that are a little off the beaten path (ie, figuring out a nitrate free fert for goldfish tanks etc), so that’s the ultimate goal.

If you don't mind by me asking, what is it that you're working on that requires such intense research, I'm genuinely curious. My head is still spinning from your first post

[AdamTill]

Not at all, but nothing super exciting.

The immediate interest was in figuring out how to make up a dry fert solution  that I can dose daily in reasonable quantities rather than my current Easygreen dosing once a week. The algae in my otocinclus breeding tank is sort of all over the place, and I thought I’d try settling things down to a consistent daily routine so parameters don’t swing.

The other was a long term interest in having a fert that would work well in with goldfish. Nitrate is not an issue there, so it would be an everything but nitrate mix.

Then just a passing interest in seeing how Easygreen compares to EI, Ada dosing etc as well. 

[Koi]

Ah thats cool man. I figured you were trying to create some sort of all in one fertilizer, I don 't doubt you'll eventually figure something out. 

I'm kind of doing the same thing right now mixing my own solutions to dose everyday. Alot of my applications are based off of EI and i'm slowly trying to see how much i can lower my fertilizer concentrations without causing deficiencies. 

Its funny you mention the goldfish, cause I'm currently running a tank with guppies and my tap comes in around 10-20ish ppm. Just like you nitrates is the least of my worries, I'm 2 months in and I'm still trying to dial in my solution.

[AdamTill]

Yup, sounds like similar issues! 

I’d eventually like to try the same thing with the otos, so that I can keep nitrates as low as they can be without causing issues with the plants.

Good luck with yours too!

[ChefConfit]

No math needed the product was designed so that 1 pump per 10 gallons provides 20ppm nitrates. @cory has stated it several times in videos

[Brandy]

But math is fun!! Some of us just like this stuff. 🙂

[AdamTill]

8 hours ago, ChefConfit said:

No math needed the product was designed so that 1 pump per 10 gallons provides 20ppm nitrates. @cory has stated it several times in videos

Pretty sure that’s not quite right, and the math disagrees as well. He says his goal is 20ppm nitrate from fertilizer, but not that a single pump gives that.

Otherwise the medium light dosing of 2 pumps per 10 gals would be 40ppm from nitrate and that’s getting pretty high.

[Brandy]

9 hours ago, ChefConfit said:

 1 pump per 10 gallons provides 20ppm nitrates.

closer to 10ppm in my actual testing. Either that is off, or the "pump" dispenses less than 1ml... I should measure that actually. It can't be much less.

[Mitch_ScruffyCityAquatics]

I’ve been told that Easy Green will increase nitrates 3 ppm with the 1 pump per 10 gallon. That is the base dose for the average aquarist. Depending on your bio load you may need to use more or less. 

[AdamTill]

11 minutes ago, Brandy said:

closer to 10ppm in my actual testing. Either that is off, or the "pump" dispenses less than 1ml... I should measure that actually. It can't be much less.

Or the test kit is a little off. I remember Tom Barr mentioning that the hobby ones are fine for what we use them for, but used against a calibrated reference solution they're a bit questionable.

[AdamTill]

3 minutes ago, Mitch Norton said:

I’ve been told that Easy Green will increase nitrates 3 ppm with the 1 pump per 10 gallon. That is the base dose for the average aquarist. Depending on your bio load you may need to use more or less. 

That would match my numbers. Who said that out of curiosity? I was calculating 19 pumps for 30 gallons, or 6.3 pumps to get 10 gallons to 20ppm (or 3.1ppm in 10 gals per pump)

[Mitch_ScruffyCityAquatics]

2 minutes ago, AdamTill said:

Or the test kit is a little off. I remember Tom Barr mentioning that the hobby ones are fine for what we use them for, but used against a calibrated reference solution they're a bit questionable.

Anyone who has tried to determine if their nitrates were between 10 and 30 ppm would agree with you. Haha. They do a great job of alerting that they are above 40 ppm or around 5 ppm. Other than that it’s a toss up. 

[Mitch_ScruffyCityAquatics]

1 minute ago, AdamTill said:

That would match my numbers. Who said that out of curiosity? I was calculating 19 pumps for 30 gallons, or 6.3 pumps to get 10 gallons to 20ppm (or 3.1ppm in 10 gals per pump)

Candy. 

[Koi]

1 hour ago, AdamTill said:

Or the test kit is a little off. I remember Tom Barr mentioning that the hobby ones are fine for what we use them for, but used against a calibrated reference solution they're a bit questionable.

Absolutely, even if we take away the fact that these hobby kits aren't as accurate we can only achieve a certain degree of accuracy depending on how a person perceive the values from a color chart. Broad strokes purposes, you can get an estimation of how much nitrogen we are putting in from easy green but there are so many factors regarding where we get our water, how much fish we have, how much we feed, and the amount of plants we are just ballparking it. For instance, I keep 100-200 guppies in what I think is a 65gallon tank, I have no clue how to even derive how much nitrogen I am receiving just from my fish waste alone (Keep in mind thats not the only thing is fish waste).

The concentrations of our macro/micro nutrients are ever changing in the water as the plants are taking in these nutrients all day, atleast during the photoperiod. As plants begin to grow, their nutrient uptake increases and not just nitrogen but all the nutrients. Every single plant has varying needs of micros/macros during the day and their uptakes are at different speeds. A common issue I see is anubias/java fern usually get starved out even though there are ample nutrients in the water because high energy plants are constantly puling it. 

Just by variable uptake alone I usually err on the side of excess keeping my concentrations within operable ranges with a week or 2 and water change to combat high excess.

[AdamTill]

Yep, totally agree on all fronts @Koi. It’s why I’m looking into ferts a bit deeper now.

Using nitrate as a proxy for total nutrient uptake works great at first, but it has all the downsides you mention. 

Likewise Easygreen is a great product and I even buy it up here in Canada at crazy Amazon price just to be supportive, but it isn’t a great choice for dosing into an already nitrate heavy setup. Which is totally fine, not everything is a nail as the saying about hammers goes.

[Koi]

Don't get me wrong easygreen is amazing I use it on my 10 gallons, 5 pumps a week, and it serves the purpose I need it for. On the other hand for my 65 gallon, I can't get enough potassium or phosphate without raising beyond 40ppm nitrates so thats where I have to create my own solution.

@AdamTill I'm really curious to know what concentrations you are reaching for in your solution and how often you do water changes. Just to compare notes, possibly steal your recipe haha

[ChefConfit]

Also keep in mind that some dechlorinators and other products we use are known to screw with tests. I think prime is one of them. 

[AdamTill]

7 hours ago, Koi said:

Don't get me wrong easygreen is amazing I use it on my 10 gallons, 5 pumps a week, and it serves the purpose I need it for. On the other hand for my 65 gallon, I can't get enough potassium or phosphate without raising beyond 40ppm nitrates so thats where I have to create my own solution.

@AdamTill I'm really curious to know what concentrations you are reaching for in your solution and how often you do water changes. Just to compare notes, possibly steal your recipe haha

Yup, I don’t doubt it. I know there are nitrate free commercial ferts, but I figure once you’re at the point of needing those may as well just dose dry ferts (plus they're ever so much cheaper).

I’m thinking I might start dosing an EI solution made up for daily dosing of the equivalent of 5ppm weekly. I’m going rogue and using a very rich substrate in my next tank, and so I don’t think too much column fertilizer will be required. Going to start a journal tonight if I get a second.