Sick Water or Sick Fish? Rapid Breathing, Erratic Swimming, Laying on Floor

[braids]

My water parameters :

Ammonia 0ppm

Nitrates 0ppm

Nitrates 160 Ppm (from the tap)

Ph 7.4?

Kh 11°

Gh 3 grains or 51.3ppm

TDS 455

Temp 82°F

 

My fish were behaving normally last night and this morning.

Around 11:30 a.m.  I noticed the smaller of the glowlight tetras laying on the floor of the aquarium. Removed it. Then the second tetra started behaving the same. Erratic swimming, floating to bottom. Removed fish.

Tested water. Everything was normal except my Ph was extremely high. Did partial water change and they returned to normal which is that 7.4 range.

See pics.

Fish are still alive. Video will be attached in next post.

What can I do?

Edited December 10, 2020 by braids
clarify time

[Cory]

how did the ph get so high?

[braids]

12 minutes ago, Cory said:

how did the ph get so high?

I have no idea honestly. I've never experienced this problem.

My video is too big and I've tried to trim the video but my computer says I don't have permission to edit the video.

Edited December 10, 2020 by braids

[braids]

Almost 24 hours later fish are still alive and rapid breathing if anyone has any suggestions. Could really use some help.

Thanks.

 

[H.K.Luterman]

It's odd your PH would swing like that. Has there been any new changes to the aquarium? New decor? New equipment?

[Hobbit]

I’m actually wondering if it’s not the pH but the nitrate. My initial guess is that your fish are suffering from long-term nitrate poisoning. Here’s an article about it that I found helpful:

Nitrate Poisoning in Aquarium Fish: Causes and Cures

AQUANSWERS.COM

---

If you notice that your pet goldfish is grotesquely curled up then it’s definitely time to reassess the water quality in your aquarium. A timely reaction is crucial now, however, you should know how to

It’s true that fish will adjust to many water conditions but I’m worried that the nitrate in your tap water is just too high. It may have been causing damage over time that’s just now starting to show itself. Maybe the change in pH was the just the straw that broke the camel’s back. Though you do have a lot of plants... is the nitrate usually still really high after the water’s been sitting in your aquarium for a while?

[Paul]

Do a water change of at least 50% and see if that helps. Also when was the last time you cleaned your filter?

 

[braids]

@Paul Thank you for replying!

Yes, my nitrates come out of the tap at that level. Fish keeping is actually how we discovered our well water is bad. We're in process of researching which whole house Nitrate filter to purchase. It's about a 2K investment. Nitrate levels like this are bad for everyone in my family (finned, 4 legged and 2 legged).

And yep - nothing I do - no matter how many plants I have seem to drop it much - at most 80 ppm.

Its been a couple months since I've cleaned my filter - I can do that and see what comes of it. My fish feed off it as well as the snails. It doesn't have gunk built up on the outside, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. 

I do have a deep bed and there is waste in the gravel (below not on top), but the last time I did a deep clean it completely crashed my cycle and I'm afraid to mess with it. That was devastating.  I rechecked my pH this morning and its the same as in the pic above which is my normal pH. I don't have Malaysian Trumpet Snails in this tank. I could maybe add those.

Side note - is that a Cane Corso in your profile? Beautiful whatever breed!

[braids]

@H.K.Luterman I did add a plastic suction cup holder thing to try to reign in some of the roots because they were blocking so much light. But there was no metal - just clear plastic and silicone. That should be inert. I have removed it though.

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

51 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

Nitrate Poisoning in Aquarium Fish: Causes and Cures

AQUANSWERS.COM

---

If you notice that your pet goldfish is grotesquely curled up then it’s definitely time to reassess the water quality in your aquarium. A timely reaction is crucial now, however, you should know how to

 

The numbers from that article are whack. Below 2 ppm for reef aquariums? People are dosing nitrate well beyond that in reef tanks.

As evidence it cites a study where rainbow trout exhibit "side swimming" at 100 mg/L nitrate-N or 443 ppm nitrate and calls this swim bladder disorder. It's not the same thing. The author of that study said certain variables such as potassium levels weren't controlled. A few years later a similar but more thorough study is performed using Atlantic salmon and he noted that none of the side swimming or other abnormal behavior occurred.

There's also no evidence for the claims that nitrate levels can cause spinal deformities.

The nitrate LC50 for most fish species is in the thousands (4,000-8,000). Chronic exposure limits are usually determined by taking 10% of that value.

[Hobbit]

Thanks @Coronal Mass Ejection Carl. I didn’t recognize the website so I probably shouldn’t have trusted it in the first place.

Do you have a better idea of what nitrate levels could be harmful over the long term? I found petMD saying levels as low as 30ppm can be harmful long term but it wasn’t very specific on length of time and didn’t cite any sources.

@braids I wouldn’t worry about gravel vacing right now. Especially if you’re going to clean your filter, you don’t want to disturb any more of the beneficial bacteria.

One way to lower your nitrate would be to get some RO or distilled water from the grocery store and use that for a water change. Some places (I think Walmart?) have dispensers for it. But let’s see what Carl says about the nitrate levels first. 🙂

[Paul]

1 hour ago, braids said:

@Paul Thank you for replying!

Yes, my nitrates come out of the tap at that level. Fish keeping is actually how we discovered our well water is bad. We're in process of researching which whole house Nitrate filter to purchase. It's about a 2K investment. Nitrate levels like this are bad for everyone in my family (finned, 4 legged and 2 legged).

And yep - nothing I do - no matter how many plants I have seem to drop it much - at most 80 ppm.

Its been a couple months since I've cleaned my filter - I can do that and see what comes of it. My fish feed off it as well as the snails. It doesn't have gunk built up on the outside, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. 

I do have a deep bed and there is waste in the gravel (below not on top), but the last time I did a deep clean it completely crashed my cycle and I'm afraid to mess with it. That was devastating.  I rechecked my pH this morning and its the same as in the pic above which is my normal pH. I don't have Malaysian Trumpet Snails in this tank. I could maybe add those.

Side note - is that a Cane Corso in your profile? Beautiful whatever breed!

@braids To your last question yes he is a Cane Corso. Now to your fish keeping issue, If you have to reduce pH adding organic matter in the form of leaves and drift wood (Mopani is dense & high in tannins) should drop your pH gradually. Also the addition of RO water will help. Walmart has RO water dispensers selling refills for .39₵ a gallon. You should be able reduce your pH by a couple of points say to the 7.6-7.8 range and slightly soften your water in time and should also hold those parameters more consistently. Good luck.

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

1 hour ago, Hobbit said:

Thanks @Coronal Mass Ejection Carl. I didn’t recognize the website so I probably shouldn’t have trusted it in the first place.

Do you have a better idea of what nitrate levels could be harmful over the long term? I found petMD saying levels as low as 30ppm can be harmful long term but it wasn’t very specific on length of time and didn’t cite any sources.

Probably well over 400 ppm.

The Davidson study using Atlantic salmon grew two groups at 44 and 443 ppm nitrate for 8 months. There was no difference in feed conversion rate, mortality, or bloodwork.

[Tami]

I was going to suggest the Walmart RO water too, mix it in with your well to decrease the nitrites you are adding - I use it because i can't use my well water - and mix it with tap water from work -just recently i had a sudden pH and Nitrite increase - checked my water from work and it had totally changed - fish were fine thankfully. 

Would adding Prime help in the short run while he tries to figure out a long term fix?  

[Momchil]

Hi,

My name is Momchil and I'm the author of the cited article about Nitrate Poisoning in fish.

I registered an account just to reply to this thread.

@Coronal Mass Ejection Carl , thank you for your comments! I respect people who do their own research. Though there are still many unknowns in our hobby, there are some things that are now widely accepted practices because of scientific evidence. Therefore I'd have to kindly disgree with you (not looking for an argument, just want to clear things up if you'd allow me).

Ok, here it goes...

"The numbers from that article are whack. Below 2 ppm for reef aquariums? People are dosing nitrate well beyond that in reef tanks."

It's true that SOME people dose Nitrate to improve the coloration of their corals. However, no more than 2 ppm of Nitrate are needed to maintain a beautiful reef, or you start getting overnutrification issues. I don't know if you've kept reef tanks, but what's important for keeping a successful reef aquarium is that you maintain a Redfield ratio of Nitrogen to Phosporus. Anyway, here's a study that discusses N:P ratios for coral health in detail: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441187/

In that line of thoughts, there are plenty of reports where people with thriving reef tanks dose Nitrates to bring the total levels to between 2 and 4 ppm.

In the article I mention 2 ppm of Nitrate, because going too far over that should come with significantly increased P levels if you don't want your corals bleached (as suggested in the scientific study I linked above). However, maintaining such large quantities of P also comes with algae issues, and other issues. - not something reef keepers consider a successful setup.

Anyhow...

"As evidence it cites a study where rainbow trout exhibit "side swimming" at 100 mg/L nitrate-N or 443 ppm nitrate and calls this swim bladder disorder."

Side swimming is disturbed balance and buoyancy. It is extremely rare that a fish has buoyancy issues without a swim bladder malformation. Read on for that.

"It's not the same thing."

Here's a study suggesting otherwise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270422/ . Here's a citation from it:

Quote

"We report a strong correlation between malformed swim bladders (subjectively determined to be abnormal in morphology or position) and side swimming, based on the strong PPV of the subjective assessment. "

However, I'm saying "suggesting" because then they say this:

Quote

"It is interesting to note that almost all the assessments of true side swimmers indicated abnormal swim bladders, while a sizeable proportion of normal swimmers also had swim bladders assessed as abnormal. The very high NPV indicates that swim bladder malformation may be a necessary component of the side-swimming risk factor constellation; however, from the lower PPV it is clear that certain fish are still able to swim normally despite possessing a malformed swim bladder and, hence, are not influenced by additional risk factors that would be sufficient to induce side swimming. From these results, it appears that side swimming is a complex, multifactorial abnormality, and further research to understand the factors associated with this condition, particularly prospective study in which causation can be more appropriately assessed, is required."

The numbers provided in the study suggest that every side swimmer has swim bladder issues, but not every fish with swim bladder issues was swimming on its side.

All in all, I could not find a study specifically saying that "side swimming = swim bladder disorder", but it's not that difficult to connect the dots, so to speak. Given the nature of Nitrate as a ion, how that affects osmoregulation in freshwater fish and how that in turn could lead to potential swim bladder disorder and therfore side swimming, I mean. Could you please provide a scientific study specifically saying that "side swimming =/= swim bladder disorder" (as you claimed)?

Anyway, continuing:

"The author of that study said certain variables such as potassium levels weren't controlled."

Correct! They also did not control boron, if that matters for completely disproving the results of the study.

"A few years later a similar but more thorough study is performed using Atlantic salmon and he noted that none of the side swimming or other abnormal behavior occurred. "

I don't know how you assessed whether it was more thorough or not. I'm assuming this is the study you're referring to: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0144860917301231

In that, they started with 2016 fish in total and it lasted 8 months. The one I cited in Aquanswers started with 12300 fish and lasted 3 months.

For the record, Potassium wasn't controlled in the study you refer as well (same as boron).

Anyway, one reason for the different outcomes in the studies is obviously osmoregulation. Atlantic salmon, used in the study you cite as "more thorough", migrate from freshwater to saltwater for a couple of years and then back to freshwater. The study subjects were  "post-smoltering" which means the Atlantic salmon already had their bodies change to adapt to high salinity. Obviously high salinity requires the exact opposite osmoregulation in fish than low salinity (look up the visual representation to get familiar with that). Nitrate, same as salt, is a ion. High Nitrate in the aquarium leads to more osmotic pressure for the fish. Impaired osmoregulation in freshwater fish leads to swollen organs, supressed swim bladder and kidney failure.

The fish in the study I linked to in my article was Oncorhynchus mykiss. There are 2 types of Oncorhynchus mykiss (it's the same species but with different lifestyles):

1. Rainbow trout - it spends the large majority, if not, all of its life in FRESHWATER
2. Steelhead - it's born in freshwater but shortly after goes on to spend YEARS IN SALTWATER before returning to spawn in freshwater again.

The authors of the study I linked to in my article refered to their study subjects as rainbow trout, which makes it extremely likely that the fish were adjusted to living in freshwater.

Now let's get back to Nitrate sensitivity. As I point out in my article, saltwater fish are more resistant to high Nitrate and that's likely because their way of osmoregulation allows them to have less issues with water renetion and therefore swim bladder malformations from swelling of the organs.

It is also well known among hobbyists that freshwater fish who naturally inhabit soft water are extremely sensitive to Nitrogen content (e.g. elevated Nitrate). That's likely because soft water has low levels of Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). For the record, Magnesium and Calcium are also ions and are the prevalent elements in what we call "hard water". It is also well known that Hard water fish can tolerate higher levels of Nitrate without showing illness (Guppies, mollies, platies, swordtails are all considered "hardy").

Following these thoughts, I think it's safe to conclude that high Nitrate is harmful to freshwater fish.

All due respect, but I dare you to look after FRESHWATER fish in a tank that has 400 ppm of Nitrate. I'm confident that it would be a disaster at best.

Anyway, moving on.

"There's also no evidence for the claims that nitrate levels can cause spinal deformities. "

That's my personal experience and observation. I discussed it with other experienced fish keepers who confirmed my observations. However, I did some digging just now and found that it has been observed by scientists as well - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15173627/

From the study:

Quote

"Fibrosis of the hepatic cells and curved spinal column were observed in the juveniles subjected to long-term nitrate exposure."

And your last statement:

"The nitrate LC50 for most fish species is in the thousands (4,000-8,000)"

...Apologies but source??? Also is this freshwater or saltwater fish? Though I doubt you'd find a source - If it's about saltwater fish, why cite it in a thread about freshwater aquariums?

Anyway, I personally find it kind of annoying having to dig up scientific studies to back my every word, just because some person in a forum haven't heard of my website or what I said does not seem in line with whatever the current trend in the fish keeping hobby is.

See, I have enormous respect for @Cory from Aquarium Co Op and what he does for this hobby. I don't think he should plug a scientific study for every three words he says in his videos. He's likely looked after hundreds of more aquariums than me and Coronal Mass Ejection Carl combined (though I did look after aquariums professionally for a short period of my career, but still).

@Hobbit Unfortunately, many people would dismiss information just because they don't recognize the brand or website of the author. I do write for a certain type of audience and not everyone is into heavy and long research papers. This does not mean I don't do my research or don't have enough experience to provide valuable input on the subject. Don't forget that popularity is all about marketing. 🙂

Anyway that was it.

Again, I do not look for an argument, but I wanted to clarify some things as the accusations demanded it IMO.

Regards,

Momchil

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Momchil
formatting, spelling, etc

[Coronal Mass Ejection Carl]

24 minutes ago, Momchil said:

Ok, here it goes...

"The numbers from that article are whack. Below 2 ppm for reef aquariums? People are dosing nitrate well beyond that in reef tanks."

It's true that SOME people dose Nitrate to improve the coloration of their corals. However, no more than 2 ppm of Nitrate are needed to maintain a beautiful reef, or you start getting overnutrification issues. I don't know if you've kept reef tanks, but what's important for keeping a successful reef aquarium is that you maintain a Redfield ratio of Nitrogen to Phosporus. Anyway, here's a study that discusses N:P ratios for coral health in detail: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441187/

In that line of thoughts, there are plenty of reports where people with thriving reef tanks dose Nitrates to bring the total levels to between 2 and 4 ppm.

In the article I mention 2 ppm of Nitrate, because going too far over that should come with significantly increased P levels if you don't want your corals bleached (as suggested in the scientific study I linked above). However, maintaining such large quantities of P also comes with algae issues, and other issues. - not something reef keepers consider a successful setup.

Sorry, but people ARE dosing well above 2 (or even 4) ppm nitrate in reef tanks. One of many examples:

 

24 minutes ago, Momchil said:

Anyhow...

"As evidence it cites a study where rainbow trout exhibit "side swimming" at 100 mg/L nitrate-N or 443 ppm nitrate and calls this swim bladder disorder."

Side swimming is disturbed balance and buoyancy. It is extremely rare that a fish has buoyancy issues without a swim bladder malformation. Read on for that.

"It's not the same thing."

Here's a study suggesting otherwise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270422/ . Here's a citation from it:

However, I'm saying "suggesting" because then they say this:

The numbers provided in the study suggest that every side swimmer has swim bladder issues, but not every fish with swim bladder issues was swimming on its side.

All in all, I could not find a study specifically saying that "side swimming = swim bladder disorder", but it's not that difficult to connect the dots, so to speak. Given the nature of Nitrate as a ion, how that affects osmoregulation in freshwater fish and how that in turn could lead to potential swim bladder disorder and therfore side swimming, I mean. Could you please provide a scientific study specifically saying that "side swimming =/= swim bladder disorder" (as you claimed)?

Anyway, continuing:

"The author of that study said certain variables such as potassium levels weren't controlled."

Correct! They also did not control boron, if that matters for completely disproving the results of the study.

"A few years later a similar but more thorough study is performed using Atlantic salmon and he noted that none of the side swimming or other abnormal behavior occurred. "

I don't know how you assessed whether it was more thorough or not. I'm assuming this is the study you're referring to: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0144860917301231

In that, they started with 2016 fish in total and it lasted 8 months. The one I cited in Aquanswers started with 12300 fish and lasted 3 months.

For the record, Potassium wasn't controlled in the study you refer as well (same as boron).

Anyway, one reason for the different outcomes in the studies is obviously osmoregulation. Atlantic salmon, used in the study you cite as "more thorough", migrate from freshwater to saltwater for a couple of years and then back to freshwater. The study subjects were  "post-smoltering" which means the Atlantic salmon already had their bodies change to adapt to high salinity. Obviously high salinity requires the exact opposite osmoregulation in fish than low salinity (look up the visual representation to get familiar with that). Nitrate, same as salt, is a ion. High Nitrate in the aquarium leads to more osmotic pressure for the fish. Impaired osmoregulation in freshwater fish leads to swollen organs, supressed swim bladder and kidney failure.

The fish in the study I linked to in my article was Oncorhynchus mykiss. There are 2 types of Oncorhynchus mykiss (it's the same species but with different lifestyles):

1. Rainbow trout - it spends the large majority, if not, all of its life in FRESHWATER
2. Steelhead - it's born in freshwater but shortly after goes on to spend YEARS IN SALTWATER before returning to spawn in freshwater again.

The authors of the study I linked to in my article refered to their study subjects as rainbow trout, which makes it extremely likely that the fish were adjusted to living in freshwater.

Now let's get back to Nitrate sensitivity. As I point out in my article, saltwater fish are more resistant to high Nitrate and that's likely because their way of osmoregulation allows them to have less issues with water renetion and therefore swim bladder malformations from swelling of the organs.

It is also well known among hobbyists that freshwater fish who naturally inhabit soft water are extremely sensitive to Nitrogen content (e.g. elevated Nitrate). That's likely because soft water has low levels of Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). For the record, Magnesium and Calcium are also ions and are the prevalent elements in what we call "hard water". It is also well known that Hard water fish can tolerate higher levels of Nitrate without showing illness (Guppies, mollies, platies, swordtails are all considered "hardy").

Following these thoughts, I think it's safe to conclude that high Nitrate is harmful to freshwater fish.

All due respect, but I dare you to look after FRESHWATER fish in a tank that has 400 ppm of Nitrate. I'm confident that it would be a disaster at best.

Anyway, moving on.

You're relying on a study on salmonids where 443 ppm nitrate had some effects on one species. How do you go from that to arguing that 20 ppm will cause nitrate intoxication in most/all other species?

There are people who start with >20 ppm in their tap water and have been keeping fish for a long time.

24 minutes ago, Momchil said:

"There's also no evidence for the claims that nitrate levels can cause spinal deformities. "

That's my personal experience and observation. I discussed it with other experienced fish keepers who confirmed my observations. However, I did some digging just now and found that it has been observed by scientists as well - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15173627/

Eggs (which are much more sensitive to nitrate than adults or even fry) were exposed to 100 and 125 mg/L NO3-N (443 to 533 ppm nitrate) for 3 months. Yet that somehow supports keeping adults of most/all species at levels below 20 ppm. OK...

24 minutes ago, Momchil said:

From the study:

And your last statement:

"The nitrate LC50 for most fish species is in the thousands (4,000-8,000)"

...Apologies but source??? Also is this freshwater or saltwater fish? Though I doubt you'd find a source - If it's about saltwater fish, why cite it in a thread about freshwater aquariums?

Here's a handy list that doesn't include recent studies:

Nitrates Toxic?

WWW.AQUATICPLANTCENTRAL.COM

---

Aquatic Plant Central

I would also cite Camargo whose table of LC50s for fish has many well over 1,000 NO3-N which is >4,400 ppm nitrate.

In Nitrate level safety to Amazon River shrimp juveniles, the maximum recommended chronic exposure is set to 10% of 96-hr LC50. That results in numbers in the hundreds, not 20 ppm.

24 minutes ago, Momchil said:

Anyway, I personally find it kind of annoying having to dig up scientific studies to back my every word, just because some person in a forum haven't heard of my website or what I said does not seem in line with whatever the current trend in the fish keeping hobby is.

Sorry, but I never heard of your website until now. Speaking of studies to back up every point, let's go over your article with a fine toothed comb:

Quote

More fragile fish like the Otocinclus, Stingrays, Angelfish or Discus should be kept in aquariums with no more than 10 ppm of nitrate in the long run.

This is just an opinion and not one every hobbyist would agree with. I'm sure plenty of people have kept those fish above 10 ppm for extended periods.

This diagram is incorrect. The vast majority of nitrogen excretion is ammonia diffusion through the gills not ammonium.

Quote

Marine fish are relatively more susceptible to nitrate intoxication than freshwater fish.

Quote

As I point out in my article, saltwater fish are more resistant to high Nitrate and that's likely because their way of osmoregulation allows them to have less issues with water renetion and therefore swim bladder malformations from swelling of the organs.

Huh? Make up your mind.

Quote

In coral reef aquariums, nitrate is to be kept at an absolute minimum, preferably at below 2 ppm, because at higher levels most of the more sensitive corals will perish.

Plenty of reef tanks are doing fine with nitrate >2 ppm.

Quote

Though fish can recover from poisonous nitrate levels they will likely become very sensitive to nitrates in the future.

Citation, please.

Quote

This type of water requires remineralization, because freshwater fish get their minerals through their skin, unlike humans.

Gills, not skin.

Quote

You could order some pretty decent ones for under $80 on Chewy.com alongside an inexpensive remineralizer such as Seachem Stability and never worry about nitrate toxicity in the aquarium again.

Seachem Stability is not a remineralization product.

[Cory]

This has gone in a direction that does not follow the CARE forum. From linking outside companies, to arguing. This thread is locked. This conversation has ended and should not be started back up in this manor. Further action will lead to removal.