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Walstad/similar methodologies - your experience


RovingGinger
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I bought the book and am part way through reading it, which is definitely an experience that makes me regret skipping chemistry in college. 

From what I understand, the Walstad method and the whole dirt planted tank was a big trend online a few years ago, but to mixed reviews and it seems to me now the prevalent low tech approach takes lessons from the Walstad method but generally shies away putting dirt in an aquarium. 

If you tried the Walstad method or a variant on it, how did it go? TIA! 

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She wrote a comprehensive book on the science of our hobby which I have found to be invaluable. All of my planted tanks and tubs are run with organic soil from a local composter.

There are many methods to running an aquarium, and your goals may not be the same as the next aquarist, but her methods and science are sound.

Cheers,

Jason

Edited by Streetwise
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In my experience dirt tanks work if you have the patience of Job. Her methods have has evolved a bit since the late 1990s when I last talked to her. Back then she told me the story of one of her earliest dirt tanks and how it went pea soup green for months and then cleared. From what I gather there are methods to combat this now. I had a very similar experience with the multi-month opaque green water problem when I first setup my big tank. The big tank was non-Walstad, but the substrate was way over-fertilized. It cleared in about 10 weeks and has been clear for the last 13 years. The main reason I toughed it out and just waited for the big tank to clear was her story of her experience. I knew it would eventually.

Everything I do is wrong, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but here is my current experience with an ersatz Walstad tank. And I say ersatz because I don't think she or anyone else would do it this way, but it does involve dirt.

I dug up a patch of my driveway that had some nice aquatic plants in it a couple of weeks ago and put it in an overly lit 29 tank.

PlantedTank.jpg.33543bc111c28b902f13aab4d2e68b7c.jpg

Here is what it looked liked then:

1591999063_15minuteaquascapetank.jpg.b85b44a54b3a2bad91d038ff71058966.jpg

Here is what it looks like now:

20200801_2837.JPG.dce59b001853a477859680b8d56f8dc0.JPG

The Eleoacharis is growing great! But so is the hair algae. And the pair of Apistogramma nijsseni I have in there love threading their way through the grass forest.

Looks terrible right? But wait, we aren't at the end of the story yet. I wish I had the 3rd picture of what it will look like in 2 months. It will look pretty good again. And with the soil in there, it will look good forever. Green water and hair algae populations explode and eventually crash, permanently.

Also with a dirt tank when you disturb the soil it clouds up for a day and then goes back to being clear, so that's not really a problem.

But you can get a similar result with less of wild ride with a substrate like Eco-Complete. I don't really think either one is superior.

Personally, if I can put something from my yard in my aquarium, I go for it. That alone makes it fun. It also helps that it saves a trip to Petco and saves money too.

 

Edited by Daniel
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I'm trying dirt out in a small betta tank. I haven't read the full book, just some essays and summaries, so likely I've made something up that may or may not work. I hope to learn more about what to expect from this thread! Thanks for starting it!

I opted to cap with sand for appearances, and planted with a "huge" score of cheap hairgrass, an ozelot sword and a madagascar lace bulb. Relative to other tanks with eco complete, I am finding I have happier grass and ozelot so far, and so far the algae has gone greener than in my other tanks, which have always gone brown algae first.

The tank has a heater and a filter. The filter was just part of the tank, I would have been interested to see how it went without one.

The tank also cycled on its own with no livestock or additions, and the amount of biofilm was amazing and seemingly instant. (Not really I just wasn't paying attention because no fish.)

The only thing I really have concerns about is the pH, which wants to drop. We have low pH at the tap, it wanting to go LOWER is a little alarming. 

It sounds like I would really enjoy the book, I'll look for it. 

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I am a novice when it comes to planted tanks. Then again I always feel like a novice, with year under the belt, when it comes to aquarium keeping. I heard about this method and watched a few videos on it. Then I took it and ran with it. In my 5 gallon, I took regular potting soil and mixed it with pea gravel. Then I layered my substrate, like you do in a terrarium.

  1. pea gravel ( just enough to cover)
  2. soil ( just enough to cover)
  3. soil and pea gravel mix (the soil has orchid bark and a little bit of sphagnum moss in it) (About an inch)
  4. Only pea gravel (about an inch)

After I got done, it was a muddy mess. But I let it settle for two days and then I planted in it. Most of the plants I have are doing good in it. At least they are growing and reproducing. Then when I set up my half gallon betta tank, I did the same method.

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Usually I always start with a question. Why? Sure in 1990, when people had to rely on Duplo substrate heaters, and really bad fertilizers dirt was a miracle. Now we have a much better understanding and a host of different fertilizer methods.  For me, short of I want to find something we've missed in common day planted aquariums by using soil. I don't see why anyone would go dirted vs an easier method. I usually think that most people just go through that "phase" where it's something they haven't done before, and therefore will try it. Most people don't settle on planted aquariums after trying all the methods as it seems to be the most work intensive, but cheapest. Most aquarists are willing to pick a middle of the road, as long as results are similar, whatever is less work  with an acceptable money exchange usually wins. 

Lastly I never recommend it to someone who is new, as they'll want to replant, and won't know how big plants get and placement. This just leads to a mess and frustration most of the time. Take a intermediate or advanced level hobbyist and they fare much better their first time with Soil. 
 

I've done walstad tanks, I have a signed walstad book. I think the science of allelopathy is fascinating.  In a system say a man made lake or pond I'd be tempted to do a dirted method, but for anything I can afford to fertilize or use an advanced substrate I personally will make that choice. 

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@Streetwise what do you think is the usual trajectory for setting up a new dirt tank? Do you find all tanks go thru a consistent settling in period? Like, I have noticed a progression of algae in non dirt tanks, nothing exact, but generally brown to green, but the one tank I set up using dirt seems to sort have jumped over some stages... Straight to vibrant green, which isn't so surprising in retrospect but...

I planned for this tank to be root heavy feeders and I didn't like the idea of placing root tablets all the time. It's a small tank, not many options for changing things around. I can prune anything that tries to take over.

For me this was an experiment born of necessity. I didn't want to buy another 20lb bag of Amazonia or eco complete for a 5g portrait style betta tank, and as a gardener I have plenty of soil available... The sand is holding the dust down and it was really easy to plant in. If it works I may find I feel silly for spending so much on the aqua soil when I have great soil right here. 

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18 hours ago, Cory said:

Most people don't settle on planted aquariums after trying all the methods as it seems to be the most work intensive, but cheapest. Most aquarists are willing to pick a middle of the road, as long as results are similar, whatever is less work  with an acceptable money exchange usually wins.

An experiment for what @Cory suggests could be run. I might set up 3 identical 10 gallon tanks, same lights, etc. The variable would be the substrate.

I am not much of plant guy these days so any recommendations for popular root feeders would be appreciated. @Brandy what do you plan to plant?

With an N of 3 the science here would be nil, but it doesn't mean the information obtained would be worthless. You could roughly see how fast, with what effort, and with what expense, what result was obtained.

 

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I would put in some swords, crypts, and a stem plant, and measure in terms of growth.

In my little tank I put an ozelot sword, a madagascar lace bulb, and dwarf hairgrass plugs separated from a single little pot. Admittedly I expect the madagascar lace plant to be too big, but I couldn't resist because I've always wanted to grow one. 🙂 Not exactly "natural", more just for fun.

I can say the other ozelot sword planted on eco complete is struggling. I think because it was harder to anchor in the substrate and the roots were damaged in the fight. Some operator error from a terrestrial gardener right there. Soil is more familiar...

I think that's the thing here, our backgrounds will alter our outcome. @Cory is totally right that 90% of people will have better success with chemical fertilizers. It's miracle grow against bone meal and kelp emulsion. Organic gardening takes skill and effort, you have to want to do it and be ready for a decade of learning curve sometimes. At least that's been my experience. I had my first 5 years of gardens fail utterly. Then suddenly I accrued enough knowledge and suddenly I almost can't fail. I like that this forum is a way to shorten the curve!

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1 hour ago, Daniel said:

An experiment for what @Cory suggests could be run. I might set up 3 identical 10 gallon tanks, same lights, etc. The variable would be the substrate.

  • Soil - something like John Innes No. 3 with an inch of sand over the top
  • Eco-complete
  • Something else, maybe Lapis Lustre Sand mixed with crushed coral, maybe use root tabs or Easy Green or both in this tank?

I am not much of plant guy these days so any recommendations for popular root feeders would be appreciated. @Brandy what do you plan to plant?

With an N of 3 the science here would be nil, but it doesn't mean the information obtained would be worthless. You could roughly see how fast, with what effort, and with what expense, what result was obtained.

 

Would pool filter sand be too much of a handicap to consider measuring? It’s what I’ve gone with in a few tanks as I have primarily easy stem or floating plants right now and I got tired of paying so much for ecocomplete. Would love to see what the trade off actually is. 
 

I am tempted to experiment with soil, but thinking of doing it open terrarium style and only planting within glass bowls, settled in sand or even left on a bare bottom tank. Does that limit root growth to the extent that it’s worthless? I have grown a lot of terrestrial plants successfully in terrarium conditions and killed probably at least as many so I know it takes a lot of plant death to find a plant success. But the journey is half the joy. 

Edited by RovingGinger
Added eco complete as another substrate i have used
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13 hours ago, RovingGinger said:

Would pool filter sand be too much of a handicap to consider measuring?

@RovingGinger I just ordered some pool filter sand on Amazon. It looks similar to the Lapis Lustre sand @Cory uses. What I don't understand is the price. How does a 50 lb bag of sand shipped to my house only cost $12? I just sent a 2 lb package ground last week (7 days to deliver) and the shipping cost was $55. Clearly I am naive in the ways of shipping.

Edited by Daniel
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It cost amazon more than $12 to ship it, they are just willing to take the loss to keep your loyalty. Just like the aquarium coop. Cheapest shipping we buy is $8.50 but we only charge 6.99. 

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As Cory suggested it was something I haven't done yet and wanted to try a dirted tank, so I set one up to give it a whirl. When I have a hobby I need to try things. Whether it's the "best" or "right" way, it doesn't really matter. An exception in fishkeeping is I wouldn't experiment in a way where I'm knowingly compromising the health of the fish. Right now we're going through an algae phase. There are no fish yet, just some bladder snails, a couple neos and a amano in a 5 gal to try to get that initial algae bloom under control. Will probably put a betta in there in the end once I'm confident it has stabilized sufficiently.


I read Walstad describe a tank where she put a 1.5" layer of gravel over a 1.5" layer of soil. I went for 1" of each as this was a 5 gal tank. I think I wound up a bit heavy on the capping, but I figure better safe than sorry to avoid a muddy mess. However, with a decent organic potting soil I don't see mud being a huge issue, as it's not usually a homogeneous hunk of fine dirt, but rather a bunch of different constituent ingredients to decompose over time to release nutrients.

Edited by dublicious
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My provocative and biased two cents on Walstad tanks. I run only Walstad tanks (6 currently), I have started with Walstad tanks as beginner and never got into other methods. I found they are hard work for the first two months and harder the smaller the tank. After the initial period they are cheap to run and to mantain and that is a big why! I know my plants have all the nutriments they need and they can filter the water without relying heavily on water changes. I don't gravel vacuum as the accumulation of mulm is the way to keep your soil rich after the 1-2 years mark.

The drawback is that once you set them up, there is very little you can change, a kind of set-and-forget aquarium. It will run for months with only the chore of triming plants and feed the inhabitants. This is a two-fold drawback: 1) you cannot move plants, 2) you stop working on the tank ... and we know we like to be busy. So actually the two months of hard work is the most rewarding part of the process and then ... you need a new tank.

My main reason to go Walstad is to have a system as self sufficient as I can, which gives the most healthy and natural environment to my shrimps/fish/snails/plants. The idea of having just gravel and being forced to bury root tabs, dose fertilizer, and vacuum dirt out is upsetting, not for the cost but for the artificiality of the process.

Let me this analogy, any non-Walstad tank is like brown sugar: you extract raw sugar, you separate the molasses from the sugar, you refine the sugar into white sugar and you add back the molasses. You get what you started from, just more palatable but in the process you had to create a sugar refinement plant with the obvius impact on environment. Pointless?

Let me last confess that I am also in indoor hydroponics, maybe the top of artificiality: I use LEDs instead of the sun, rockwhool and feritlizers instead of dirt and ... I do like brown sugar!

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I am collecting what I will need for the 3 tanks.

  • Pool Sand and crushed coral with root tabs for standard tank number 1 - ordered
  • Eco-complete for standard tank number 2 - not ordered yet
  • Walstad tank will not have John Innes No. 3 as this isn't available in the USA, so I will have to come up with something else

Lighting will likely be Finnex Stingray LED lights

Sponge filters maybe? I am leaning toward no filter.

Sand.PNG

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3 minutes ago, Brandy said:

I vote no filter. And you could go with plain organic compost, big chunks sifted out. I had some potting soil with vermiculite mixed in, so I used water to separate that out before using what would sink. 

Okay, no filter. And I have plenty of organic compost already.

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6 hours ago, Daniel said:

I am collecting what I will need for the 3 tanks.

  • Pool Sand and crushed coral with root tabs for standard tank number 1 - ordered
  • Eco-complete for standard tank number 2 - not ordered yet
  • Walstad tank will not have John Innes No. 3 as this isn't available in the USA, so I will have to come up with something else

Lighting will likely be Finnex Stingray LED lights

Sponge filters maybe? I am leaning toward no filter.

Sand.PNG

The most popular choice is probably miracle grow organic choice potting mix. If you wanted to run a 4th tank you could also do mineralized soil. I've had 2 dirted tanks both with mineralized soil and never had the initial algae out break common in tanks that use "raw" dirt. 

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17 minutes ago, MattyIce said:

One of the negatives seems to be moving stuff around, is there a risk of nitrate spike or the like from stirring up the dirt when removing plants?  or it is just a matter of making the water dirty?

 

I always thought it was just dirty water for a little bit, but I really don't know. I will add this to the list of things to measure in the 'Honey, I Just Dirted My Tank' experiment.

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1 hour ago, MattyIce said:

One of the negatives seems to be moving stuff around, is there a risk of nitrate spike or the like from stirring up the dirt when removing plants?  or it is just a matter of making the water dirty?

 

As for normal dirt in your garden, different chemestries will develop at different depth. Stirring up the dirt should not be done as it disrupts this equilibrium, release different chemicals now reacting with the oxigen and some low oxigen bacteria start to die. This same principle applies to deep sand beds.

The soil in the tank is not just a mechanical substrate as you would consider your gravel where bacteria stick to it, holds your plant down and release nutriments like ADA soil. The two initial months setting up your Walstad tank are mainly needed to "cycle" your soil, to establish the right chemestry in it so it can sustain a thriving ecosystem. As soon you submerge it, lots die and new bacteria start growing, detritus worms colonize it and many other critters will depend on it. Plants will exchange chemicals through the roots adding oxigen to the soil so that even on different locations the soil will have different chemistry. For example sulfur bubbles will form in areas with no plants as there are no roots to provide oxigen (one more reason to plant heavily).     

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This may be a stupid question but I haven't seen it really addressed by anyone going no-filter: don't you need a filter to generate some sort of water movement? Or a pump of some kind? Or can you literally set up a soil water box and some plants and have still water aside from the movement any critters generate? 

Similarly, why is sifting the dirt such a big deal?

These are all questions I cannot seem to find simple questions to in Walstad's Book Of Complex Chemical Things. Help, I was a marketing major...

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Dirt sifting keeps you from having big sticks trying to float to the surface...I just picked out chunks.

I think the "still" water can work if 

a)heavily planted

b)appropriate fish are chosen

Obviously you wont want hillstream species, but bettas, rice fish, guppies, even some tetras, etc often live in seriously still water--anything that can live in natural ponds. The aeration is supposed to be handled by the plants. You will want to keep stocking levels LOW. 

 

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19 minutes ago, RovingGinger said:

This may be a stupid question but I haven't seen it really addressed by anyone going no-filter: don't you need a filter to generate some sort of water movement? Or a pump of some kind? Or can you literally set up a soil water box and some plants and have still water aside from the movement any critters generate? 

Lucas Bretz (LRB Aquatics) doesn't run any filters or air in his fish room. He has plants in every tank and only does water changes. Check out his YouTube channel, maybe he has a video talking about it. 

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