Which tank should I use for Apisto Breeding?

[WeehawkenFish]

Hey guys, I've got a very well established 29 gallon with a male cacatuoides and I'm planning on adding two females. You'll see in the picture it's very well planted. I've also got a 20 gallon that I'm about to fill with water. I wanted to have a second tank so that, in the event that I'm successful, I'll be able to remove the male after spawning in case he becomes aggressive. Originally I thought I'd add the apistos to the 20-gallon and have less plants so I can keep a better eye on what's going on/catch fish easier. But now I'm thinking maybe it's better to try to breed in the already established tank because the fry might have a lot more food access like algae/etc? Or do you think it would be much harder to deal with a spawn in a more heavily planted tank?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. My goal is to just have the mother raise the fry. I don't think I'm an experienced enough fish keeper to remove the eggs and raise them myself. I know I may not end up being successful anyways, but if they do breed I want to be in the best position to succeed.  Would the more well established tank be a more fail/safe environment for fry? I'll be adding a seeded sponge filter to the new tank so it should cycle quickly, but considering it will be a new tank, wouldn't it be more prone to swings in water parameters?

 

 

[Fish Folk]

Beautiful planted aquarium set up! Cacatuoides are so charming. No really great answers here... just some food for thought:

(1) if your male is a bit old, he may be an unwilling breeder

(2) a healthy female Apisto will turn yellow, and lose certain markings when ready to spawn

(3) female Apistos guarding eggs / fry are often the more aggressive ones... they will sometimes wind up and tail-whip the male

(4) that hole in the Apisto hut may be too large... females prefer really small openings. You can probably plug off 1/2 that hut and interest her _more_
 

If we were breeding them, we’d definitely just let them go to town in the established tank. 
 

Depending on your water parameters, they may require some selective triggers to spawn. Try rainwater. (Maybe) Try adding a Catappa leaf. Feed live foods. Up the water changes. Give the female(s) 1-2 months to settle in. 
 

Consider also some “dither” fish. Pencil fish are always recommended... if they’ll take to your water.

Good luck!!!

 

[WeehawkenFish]

Thanks @Fish Folk, I have considered many of the items you mentioned.  I just got my male in September, so he is definitely young and ready to breed.  I bought him as a pair. and for the first month they were very frisky and looking very much like a pair.  Shortly thereafter the female ended up with popeye, to which I treated with maracyn, then paraguard, and neither were a success, and she ultimately died.

I have to guess that he was responsible, even though I didn't witness any violent behavior whatsoever.  He has definitely grown at least a half inch since I got him, so my plan regardless is to put the two females in the new tank (which I just filled, see below) to fatten them up a bit before I introduce them.  I was also planning on pencil fish as dither fish.  I currently have cardinals in the planted tank, so when the time comes I'll just do my best to catch them (ugh) and move them to the 20 gallon, then add pencil fish to the 29 gallon.

I'll also follow your advice about the catappa leaf.  That's to soften water, yes?  Would almond leaves serve the same purpose?

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by WeehawkenFish

[Fish Folk]

Looks good! Sounds like a plan. Catappa leaves are Indian Almond leaves - same thing. Take care with them. Our water is about pH 7.8 from the tap, but very soft. Too much Catappa leaves, and the breakdown produces humic acid which crashes pH. To be safe, maybe consider just letting them go and see if they like each other. Rainwater is usually very close to 7.0 pH, so that should be enough to trigger something. We usually just do 25% water changes with rain water. Another idea is to let water stand in a 4-5 gal bucket with catappa leaves or alder cones in to increase tannins. We even use rainwater drawn  from our sump pump (always test that water first, of course). Then, when you add that water for a water change, the humic acid doesn't build up too much because the leaf litter is not breaking down _in_ the aquarium constantly, but rather in the _bucket_. We had a pair of wild-caught Apistogramma Bitaeniata spawn that way a few times. Here's a little video . . .

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Fish Folk

[tolstoy21]

I used a 29 gallon well planted tank and bred in it fine. My Ph is about 6.8 and I use a bunch of leaf litter, java moss, bog wood, java fern etc.

I'd just make sure they're the only fish in there, and remove parents after birth if they start showing a lot of aggression towards one another.

In my experience, it's the female that gets aggressive, not so much the male. I had a pair, but I did have to relocate the male because he was taking quite a beating from the female who didn't want him anywhere near her fry.  I'm not sure how multiple females shepherding fry around a 29 gallon will react to one another. 

Once the fry are free swimming a few days, you can just raise them up in the tank without the parents easily.  

Edited December 9, 2020 by tolstoy21

[WeehawkenFish]

@Fish Folkwow, I love how yellow she is.  I will try to bury the coconut shells a little more into the gravel in order to close off the opening, and maybe put a big rock next to it like you have done.

@tolstoy21thanks.  I think I'm gonna remove my cardinals from the 29 gallon and attempt the spawn in there.  I'm worried the newer tank will be prone to too many parameter shifts.

[tolstoy21]

@WeehawkenFish I put mine in a brand new tank with brand new water. But I did move a pre-seeded sponge filter and a bunch of existing plants and java moss that presumably had beneficial bacteria on them to the tank.  The tank currently has about 30 happy 2-month old fry in it. 

[tolstoy21]

@WeehawkenFish Honestly, id say just do whatever is the easiest path to success. The extra size vertical of the 29 gallon won't matter to the adult fish. For them, it's all about bottom layer and its dimensions. 

On the other hand, the extra water capacity could be nice to have as your fry grow out and get larger just from a water volume/water quality perspective.

I'd judge that against how long it will take to cycle a new tank based on what you have available (like pre-seeded stuff), along with the effort to relocate fish already in there. Weight that against the possible benefit of an extra 9 gallons water volume for grow out. And that extra volume will probably only benefit you in terms of how often you will need to perform water changes as the fry age, and how many there are -- in both tank size scenarios that could become daily no matter how you proceed and how many fry you have and how large you grow them out to before finding new homes for them.

All in all, I think you can be successful no matter how you proceed, with some minor considerations. (Long-winded answer above aside!).

Edited December 9, 2020 by tolstoy21

[WeehawkenFish]

@tolstoy21I hear what you're saying.  I have a 6-week seeded sponge filter to add to the new tank as soon as I get a few fish, so I'm hoping the new tank will be ready right away.  But the established 29 gallon is right next to my desk and featured more prominently in the room, so I think that's where I'd prefer the apistos to be.  

Do you think I should grow out the females fore a couple weeks before introducing them to the male?  Or since there's two of them maybe that won't be necessary?  I suppose that will all depend on their size coming from the store.

[tolstoy21]

@WeehawkenFish I don't know that their age or size difference will matter in terms of them being together and showing aggression or not.  But honestly, I just don't know. Never really thought about that.

In terms of your experience, I has a similar experience with the breeders I acquired being sick shortly after I received them. Perhaps this is a result of the stress of shipment, etc. Luckily for me, they spawned quickly. I still have the male, and like you had to treat for the fish for popeye.

I believe the fish appreciate the leaf litter in the tank as places to find cover and to possibly spawn in. Mine enjoyed hanging out under  the leaves a lot. The leaves also have other beneficial properties, but I used them to make their home more comfortable so they were more comfortable to spawn.

I didn't use dither fish in my setup as I've never had a reason for them with apistos. When I come up to the tank, they are happy to see me, immediately come out from hiding, and realize i'm the mechanism that brings them food. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by tolstoy21

[WeehawkenFish]

@tolstoy21thanks again for the responses.  I just have one more question (I swear haha).  When I move my sponge filter to the new tank, do you recommend I keep all the crud that it has collected from the current tank?  And perhaps eve wring it out in the new tank water?

[tolstoy21]

@WeehawkenFish Good question. Don't know. I don't wring mine out, but I've never moved one I thought was overly cruddy. 

If you do feel the need to wring it out a bit, just do it in a bucket of tank water and you're probably fine.

Personally, I just move larger rocks or wood or sponge filters or plants or bio media, really anything I have on-hand that I think I can move to jump start a cycle. I test the water a few days after adding fish, and if I think I haven't jump started it 100% successfully, I might treat the tank with something like Seachem Stability to help it along. I think the key to jump starting this way is to keep the fish load low initially so as to no overwhelm the new tanks capacity to process waste.

Having floating plants available also really helps. I keep water lettuce and salvinia around to jumpstart things and get tanks off to a start.

I'll let others chime in, as really I just wing it and don't have any real science behind my methods (really they're just born from of overwhelming predilection for impatience).

Edited December 9, 2020 by tolstoy21

[Ken Burke]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:33 PM, tolstoy21 said:

@WeehawkenFish Good question. Don't know. I don't wring mine out, but I've never moved one I thought was overly cruddy. 

If you do feel the need to wring it out a bit, just do it in a bucket of tank water and you're probably fine.

Personally, I just move larger rocks or wood or sponge filters or plants or bio media, really anything I have on-hand that I think I can move to jump start a cycle. I test the water a few days after adding fish, and if I think I haven't jump started it 100% successfully, I might treat the tank with something like Seachem Stability to help it along. I think the key to jump starting this way is to keep the fish load low initially so as to no overwhelm the new tanks capacity to process waste.

Having floating plants available also really helps. I keep water lettuce and salvinia around to jumpstart things and get tanks off to a start.

I'll let others chime in, as really I just wing it and don't have any real science behind my methods (really they're just born from of overwhelming predilection for impatience).

I go one step further.  I’ll use water from a gravel vac/water change (up to about 25% of the new tank)  Poor it in mulm and all.  Like @tolstoy21, no real science behind it, and the sample size is small.  (Only done in a couple times). 
 

I figure the mulm is full of beneficial flora, and distributes it everywhere.