New pea puffer species ?

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I purchased some pea puffers from @Dans-Fish recently after a bit of discussion and research. To me they dont quite match anything in any puffer references i have so I bought a group to grow out and observe. I also have not found any recent updates on scholar.google that would indicate what species this could be.  

The collection point was identied as west java adding to the mystery.  One consideration was  possibly they are actually baby Chelonodon patoca due to the adult patterning however looking at a patoca fry at 1.4" shows no spotting, no eye spot, no brown, lots of silver, and to me eye different mouth structure. I could be wrong of course . 

The other is some species like Carinotetraodon imitator based off the blue coloration 

They are pretty fiesty at about 1/4". Here is the pea puffer "west java" anyone care to weigh in one what this could be ? 

[Retrophyllum_minus]

I saw those on the Dan's Fish listing and they were saying they didn't think they were the usual species. 
 

it very well could be a new species that is as yet undescribed. 

[Skypilot]

https://www.gbif.org/species/2407798
 

This might help, general distribution for all Carinotetraodon species.

[DallasCowboys16]

Check out the notes section here:

"A possible geographical variant/subspecies/undescribed congener is sometimes available in which the darker markings on the body of the fish are more of a bluey-green colour. Another species, Carinotetraodon imitator is superficial in appearance to C. travancoricus, and is also a sporadic import."

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/carinotetraodon-travancoricus/

When I worked in a fish store, I used to notice that the pea puffer shipments would occasionally have slightly larger-bodied individuals with a more metallic blue sheen. They also behaved a little bit differently. The eye test told me they were a different species. I think these to be the postulated undescribed similar species that occurs in some of the same bodies of water in Kerala.

Very interesting stuff here.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

8 hours ago, Retrophyllum_minus said:

I saw those on the Dan's Fish listing and they were saying they didn't think they were the usual species. 
 

it very well could be a new species that is as yet undescribed. 

Jonny and I talked for a bit about these the photo sold me on going for a group. It's going to be an interesting few months of learning them very small still. They certainly do not behave as the Carinotetraodon travancoricus  group does. Even if they end up being standard peas somehow the process of pattern changing will be a good one to document  

7 hours ago, DallasCowboys16 said:

Check out the notes section here:

"A possible geographical variant/subspecies/undescribed congener is sometimes available in which the darker markings on the body of the fish are more of a bluey-green colour. Another species, Carinotetraodon imitator is superficial in appearance to C. travancoricus, and is also a sporadic import."

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/carinotetraodon-travancoricus/

When I worked in a fish store, I used to notice that the pea puffer shipments would occasionally have slightly larger-bodied individuals with a more metallic blue sheen. They also behaved a little bit differently. The eye test told me they were a different species. I think these to be the postulated undescribed similar species that occurs in some of the same bodies of water in Kerala.

Very interesting stuff here.

Indeed. This will be an enjoyable thread to update as they grow and change 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

8 hours ago, Skypilot said:

https://www.gbif.org/species/2407798
 

This might help, general distribution for all Carinotetraodon species.

Thanks much. It is interesting that there are no collection points on Java island and the closest to west Java looks to be C.loreti. I also could not find any close match visually or location wise to any of the field guides published for the region, any research, or any reference books. Should be an interesting group to grow out

[Skypilot]

11 hours ago, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

Thanks much. It is interesting that there are no collection points on Java island and the closest to west Java looks to be C.loreti. I also could not find any close match visually or location wise to any of the field guides published for the region, any research, or any reference books. Should be an interesting group to grow out

Might be a new collection location.

[Huck]

I ordered a group of these also before they either sold out or got taken down. I was looking for a group of pea puffers to keep, and it seemed too intriguing to get a possible new species or type. I'm really excited to grow these out. Do you know if they sold out already? I thought I remembered them having a bunch of them available. 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 10/28/2024 at 7:37 PM, Huck said:

I ordered a group of these also before they either sold out or got taken down. I was looking for a group of pea puffers to keep, and it seemed too intriguing to get a possible new species or type. I'm really excited to grow these out. Do you know if they sold out already? I thought I remembered them having a bunch of them available. 

Sorry missed hitting reply to this one. They are an interesting pattern and it seems to be holding. I know C.immitator can have blue but ive still not found any reference to this type of pattern for a know species. 

Its certainly more noticable when excited but its not like any other peas ive ever seen or researched. Maybe its a cross of immitator, with the blue,  and another pea but the speckling isnt something that seems to be noted in the common pea species.....or its going to grow and turn out to be not a "pea puffer"

Edited November 17 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Huck]

On 11/17/2024 at 11:07 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

Sorry missed hitting reply to this one. They are an interesting pattern and it seems to be holding. I know C.immitator can have blue but ive still not found any reference to this type of pattern for a know species. 

Its certainly more noticable when excited but its not like any other peas ive ever seen or researched. Maybe its a cross of immitator, with the blue,  and another pea but the speckling isnt something that seems to be noted in the common pea species.....or its going to grow and turn out to be not a "pea puffer"

My group has been here for a while and they have gotten so much bigger it's wild! I need to get in there closer and see if mine are showing the same blue sheen I see on yours. They're in a bit darker tank though in the fish room. Look forward to comparing notes on our colonies and seeing how these mature.

[Odd Duck]

Maybe it’s just the way the light is hitting them, but the eyes / irises seem to be much lighter color, too.

[permanentlyabsent]

I recently just got 3 that looks similar to yours and when I got them home (since I didn't really get to inspect or choose at my LFS) I immediately questioned if they were the same species as my current shoal. I get they're still juvies but my existing shoal when they were juvies looked nothing like these guys, especially the face structure. They are also so much more fiestier, my original peas most aggressive moments is a very short "chase away" but they've never fully nipped at each other, maybe a quick peck. But these new babies are completely fearless and fully latch on not letting go when fighting. 

 

I've been sitting here trying to figure out whether my original shoal are C. Imitator or C. Travancoricus and who the new peas belong in, but I've just fully confused myself now. 

 

The first 3 photos are the new peas, the last 3 photos are of my original peas.

[Odd Duck]

Here’s a pic from the clutch of peas I raised a couple years ago.  They have lots of speckles as youngsters and some blue but this is the max I got in a pic.  It’s nowhere near as much as the pics you’ve each gotten of the new variant (or species).  
 

The speckling isn’t the same, either.

[permanentlyabsent]

8 minutes ago, Odd Duck said:

Here’s a pic from the clutch of peas I raised a couple years ago.  They have lots of speckles as youngsters and some blue but this is the max I got in a pic.  It’s nowhere near as much as the pics you’ve each gotten of the new variant (or species).  
 

The speckling isn’t the same, either.

But even when I'm just looking at the spine and beak comparing to yours, these new peas I got seem to have a slightly different spine, and the beak looks like the bottom protrudes further out than the top. I thought it might have been a deformity or something, but then the original poster also looks similar to mine

[Mya G]

Here’s some pictures of the first pea puffer I got. Sorry they aren’t the best quality lol.

[Odd Duck]

There’s definitely variation among pea puffers in the mouth and the spine.  Some of mine had more undershot jaw or slight changes in how the spine looked (or maybe just how they expressed / moved with it).  I just can’t say for sure if this is a new species or a local variant.  There are too many similarities and differences to be sure either way.  Maybe after everybody’s youngsters mature more we may be able to tell better.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

Perhaps there are a few species of peas that will eventually be described out of the different groups collected . The west java location was the oddest but the source claimed it was where they came from confidently to the seller. 

Its a cool pattern either way and these are big enough that they should  have their adult patterning 

they are also fairly fiesty but avoid any aggression just displays so far

 

 

Edited November 26 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Chiliboras]

This is fascinating! I love the pattern on them, they are very cool looking. The blue is amazing!

[Markp2483]

Normal peas are from India, right? Not Indonesia. Very interesting 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

18 hours ago, Markp2483 said:

Normal peas are from India, right? Not Indonesia. Very interesting 

Yes C.travancoricus "malabar dwarf puffer" is normally collected in southwest India area and references indicate the Chalakudy River specifically. 

 

The other pea puffer is C.Immatator " the blue spotted dwarf puffer" it still looks a bit different to these groups and is also a source location of Kerala province southern India. C.Immatator was initially classified as a color form of C.travancoricus and based off the blue im assuming these are close to that species.  

 

With the exception of the two carinotetraodon above the rest of the carinotetraodon are spread out and arguably closer to wet java island malaysia. 

 

 

 

C.Salivator "striped redeye puffers"" are from Sarawak on Borneo in Malaysia

 

C.lorteti "crested puffer" are from evweywhere basically:  Thailand, Laos, Cambodoa, Vietnam, and Malaysia

 

C.irrubesco "redtailed redeye puffer" are from Indonesia the island of sumatra in the Banjuasin basin, and Borneo in the sambas river

 

There was a collector south of jakarta west java who has never seen these so possible the location could be new

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 11/23/2024 at 8:16 AM, permanentlyabsent said:

I recently just got 3 that looks similar to yours and when I got them home (since I didn't really get to inspect or choose at my LFS) I immediately questioned if they were the same species as my current shoal. I get they're still juvies but my existing shoal when they were juvies looked nothing like these guys, especially the face structure. They are also so much more fiestier, my original peas most aggressive moments is a very short "chase away" but they've never fully nipped at each other, maybe a quick peck. But these new babies are completely fearless and fully latch on not letting go when fighting. 

 

I've been sitting here trying to figure out whether my original shoal are C. Imitator or C. Travancoricus and who the new peas belong in, but I've just fully confused myself now. 

 

The first 3 photos are the new peas, the last 3 photos are of my original peas.

These guys are for sure more fiesty than the carinotetraodon travancoricus group. They run hot even for puffers up here but no real agruments yet just display and chase. 

 

The "west java" 

The eye even seems a little different .....but i do see a but of yellow on the three bases of the fins so 🤷‍♂️. Way more blue than Ive seen before and most if it is spots vs blotches so far

 

im a little impressed i caught this frame in focus

 

 

And the similarly sized Carinotetraodon travancoricus which looks way different to me at the moment and the behaviors are much different compared to the "west java" colony

 

Edited November 27 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[permanentlyabsent]

On 11/26/2024 at 8:22 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

These guys are for sure more fiesty than the carinotetraodon travancoricus group. They run hot even for puffers up here but no real agruments yet just display and chase. 

 

The "west java" 

The eye even seems a little different .....but i do see a but of yellow on the three bases of the fins so 🤷‍♂️. Way more blue than Ive seen before and most if it is spots vs blotches so far

 

im a little impressed i caught this frame in focus

 

 

And the similarly sized Carinotetraodon travancoricus which looks way different to me at the moment and the behaviors are much different compared to the "west java" colony

 

I wish my LFS would actually ask where their supplies were sourced from as I would love to know if my new ones were found in the same area as yours.

 

So a few days after I made that post, another LFS posted they had gotten some puffers too. Out of curiosity I went to see if maybe they all might have the same seller and also got these slightly different looking peas (also they were actually eye level tank so I can inspect them this time). To my surprise, the peas they got were the ones I'm used to, yellow coming through very easily, obvious male markings in both the spotted and not the spotted ones where they are just more grey. 

 

Since I ended up pulling out the 3 new ones and placed them in a different tank, I had this feeling I might have a problem when it's going to be 2male 1 female. So I picked up 2 more from this LFS and these guys were super calm in the tank and very easy to catch allowing me to choose.

 

I tried to get a pic of them all together to compare. The first pic is the newest newest pea (I think female) comparing with the fiestier guys. At the store she looked more yellow but darkened up in my tank a few days later. Even tho she darkened up and the blue is more visible, the blue doesn't come as visible as the fiesty guys where it just looks bright no matter what angle they are in. When looking at them with my eyes vs my camera, the feisty guys look gray with very very little yellow peaking thru. The two newest ones are very gentle and want to shoal with these guys but keeps getting chased away, hasn't picked a fight at all, and are more willing to swim around the tank rather then claiming a spot.

 

Second pic here the top is the newest newest female at the top and one of the fiesty males (I think?).  My camera capture the fiesty guy a bit more yellow here but he really doesn't look yellow at all. Also the blue in the fiesty guys are still bright around the head where as the newest newest ones are brightest near the tail end.

 

And then just a comparison of one of my old males as a baby who's predominantly grey with one of the other fiestier ones whos also more grey with less spots. Even here the blue is very visible thru out the whole baby where as my old male doesn't have any blue at all. 

 

 

 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

1 hour ago, permanentlyabsent said:

I wish my LFS would actually ask where their supplies were sourced from as I would love to know if my new ones were found in the same area as yours.

 

So a few days after I made that post, another LFS posted they had gotten some puffers too. Out of curiosity I went to see if maybe they all might have the same seller and also got these slightly different looking peas (also they were actually eye level tank so I can inspect them this time). To my surprise, the peas they got were the ones I'm used to, yellow coming through very easily, obvious male markings in both the spotted and not the spotted ones where they are just more grey. 

 

Since I ended up pulling out the 3 new ones and placed them in a different tank, I had this feeling I might have a problem when it's going to be 2male 1 female. So I picked up 2 more from this LFS and these guys were super calm in the tank and very easy to catch allowing me to choose.

 

I tried to get a pic of them all together to compare. The first pic is the newest newest pea (I think female) comparing with the fiestier guys. At the store she looked more yellow but darkened up in my tank a few days later. Even tho she darkened up and the blue is more visible, the blue doesn't come as visible as the fiesty guys where it just looks bright no matter what angle they are in. When looking at them with my eyes vs my camera, the feisty guys look gray with very very little yellow peaking thru. The two newest ones are very gentle and want to shoal with these guys but keeps getting chased away, hasn't picked a fight at all, and are more willing to swim around the tank rather then claiming a spot.

 

Second pic here the top is the newest newest female at the top and one of the fiesty males (I think?).  My camera capture the fiesty guy a bit more yellow here but he really doesn't look yellow at all. Also the blue in the fiesty guys are still bright around the head where as the newest newest ones are brightest near the tail end.

 

And then just a comparison of one of my old males as a baby who's predominantly grey with one of the other fiestier ones whos also more grey with less spots. Even here the blue is very visible thru out the whole baby where as my old male doesn't have any blue at all. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, permanentlyabsent said:

 

Nice photos. Yeah im not convinced that the ask about the collection location didnt get lost in translation along the way to the source or even get all the way to the source probably..... but its at least a start. 

 

Ill probably throw a "puffer cam" on the colony to start documenting them consistently here. 

 

 

 

[Chiliboras]

33 minutes ago, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

 

Ill probably throw a "puffer cam" on the colony to start documenting them consistently here. 

What do you use?

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

9 minutes ago, Chiliboras said:

What do you use?

 

Its a few options I just look for wifi cams with a memory card to document 24/7 currently using both

Kasa KC400 camera and wyze camera V3  .....but wyze V4 is tempting to replace