How often can i get Appistos to spawn without compromising health?

[a date with nature]

I've seen a few answers, but they provided no evidence, reasoning, or personall experience.

[Guppysnail]

I started my caucatoides trio at 78 degrees. Both girls spawned every 4 weeks so I turned the tank down to 75-76. They spawn every 5 weeks now. This has gone on since April. 
I don’t do anything special to “get them to spawn” they just do. When moms chase the babies away they start grooming the cave and flirting. 
They are robust and seem very healthy and happy. 
I have no way to scientifically prove they are any less healthy than Apisto that do not spawn regularly. Here is a thread for the first part of my having them. This is them now. One is flirting with dad the other is tending fry that are soon due to be shooed away. 
 

 

[Guppysnail]

Actually those fry are going to be chased sooner than later. She was grooming her cave earlier and dad was watching 🤣

He earns his name Casinova.  

[a date with nature]

Thanks! have you had problems with them eating fry? as in before they should be at least

Edited October 11, 2023 by a date with nature

[Guppysnail]

On 10/11/2023 at 12:36 PM, a date with nature said:

Thanks! have you had problems with them eating fry? as in before they should be at least

Mine never eat fry. Once the moms chase them away dad chases them into “his” moss territory. The babies will eat the new fry so dad keeps them away from the feeding areas and away from moms. He is a good papa. I once accidentally scattered the fry if both moms. He rushed about the Tank collecting them and spitting them back at the moms. It was funny because one set was a week older. He just spit fry at whichever mom was closest to where he found the wayward fry. So each had two different size fry. They didn’t mind. If he finds an errant fry occasionally he will spit them at whichever mom currently has fry. 
Here is where he is first collecting a batch the mom is done with. 

 

[tolstoy21]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:24 PM, a date with nature said:

I've seen a few answers, but they provided no evidence, reasoning, or personall experience.

What exactly are your concerns about their health in relation to spawning? I've bred a decent number of apistos, so maybe I can share some of my personal experiences.

[a date with nature]

I'm not very concerned about their health. i simply wanted to know how often they spawn so i can plan on it. One of the concerns was because i heard that if you turn the heat up high, the fish will spawn more, but it may burn them out faster.

[tolstoy21]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:20 PM, a date with nature said:

I'm not very concerned about their health. i simply wanted to know how often they spawn so i can plan on it.

I have found that planning when they will spawn is like planning when it will rain. As you mentioned, there are definitely steps you can take to urge the process along (turning up heat), but I personally find it hard to get them to breed on a predictable schedule, at least not as predictable as fish like tetras and barbs.

You can try keeping the tank around 76F, then turn it up to 79F - 80F until they spawn. I don't think this will affect their long term health or burn them out, but remember to turn the heat down shortly after the fry are born (within the following two weeks or so). Temps above 78F will sway your spawn to be heavily male. 78F seems to be a sweet spot for many species, producing a decently even ratio of male vs female offspring (according to research). Temps below 77 will start to tip the scales towards females.  Ph levels will also have secondary influence on sex ratios, but not as strong as water temps.

[a date with nature]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:04 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I have found that planning when they will spawn is like planning when it will rain. As you mentioned, there are definitely steps you can take to urge the process along (turning up heat), but I personally find it hard to get them to breed on a predictable schedule, at least not as predictable as fish like tetras and barbs.

You can try keeping the tank around 76F, then turn it up to 79F - 80F until they spawn. I don't think this will affect their long term health or burn them out, but remember to turn the heat down shortly after the fry are born (within the following two weeks or so). Temps above 78F will sway your spawn to be heavily male. 78F seems to be a sweet spot for many species, producing a decently even ratio of male vs female offspring (according to research). Temps below 77 will start to tip the scales towards females.  Ph levels will also have secondary influence on sex ratios, but not as strong as water temps.

what P.H. keeps it mostly nutral then? min is about 6.8 whats yours?

[tolstoy21]

Specifically I keep my Ph at around 6.4-6.6 because this is what my water measures out of the tap.

According to research, at a temperature of 26C (78.8F), the below graph represents the relationship between Ph and the male/female gender ratios in A. Cacatuoides --

In Cacatuoides, the relationship between temperature and gender is equally as strong as that of Ph. So as temps decrease below 78.8F, the percentage of offspring should skew female at a given Ph; as the temps increase, the percentage should skew towards males.

This influence of ph/temp on gender is not necessarily the same for every species (some apistogramma are more influenced by Ph than temp and vice versa), but for the majority of species studied there is a measurable correlation between gender and environmental factors.

Environmental factors have been shown to effect apistogramma sex determination during the first month of life, with the influence decreasing linearly over time. So the ultimate sex ratio is determined over a roughly 30-day period, after birth, and is not set at conception/incubation. 

For anyone interested in the topic, the research can be found in these two journal articles -- 

Effect of ph on Sex Ratio in Cichlids and a Poecilliid (Teleostei)
David A. Rubin
Copeia, Vol. 1985, No. 1 (Feb. 11, 1985), pp. 233-235 (3 pages)

Environmental Determination of Sex in Apistogramma(Cichlidae) and two other fresh water fishes (Teleostei)
Römer & Beisenherz (1996)
Journal of Fish Biology 48, 714–725.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by tolstoy21