Surface plants - how much is too much

[beastie]

So, the age old question. How much surface plants is too much.

I have a basically filter less tanks. I have half a sponge and air filter. I want to rely on plants but i like the fact the bubbles create some sort of flow and surface irritation. I understand the oxygen exchange happens through open water surface or movement. I have little movement and rapidly growing surface plants. How much of the surface needs to stay opened to ensure the oxygen exchange to be sufficient for a warm water summer with some plants, few shrimp and eight nano fish ( i am hoping understocked)

I will create a surface loop where plants won't grow to achieve the percentage but need the advice on how much. Thanks 

 

[Guppysnail]

A good rule of thumb is 25% open space minimum as long as you have an airstone or two that the bubbles pop in that open area. My experience is floaters can grow thick and become multilayered. When that happens thin them so it is a single layer of floaters that are not extremely dense. 
 

One thing I notice is a protein layer developing where the surface movement does not reach because floaters block flow. Keep an eye out and use a paper towel to sop up the protein or a small cup to skim it off the top. 

[beastie]

On 7/6/2023 at 2:56 PM, Guppysnail said:

A good rule of thumb is 25% open space as long as you have an airstone or two. My experience is floaters can grow thick and become multilayered. When that happens thin them so it is a signer layer of floaters that are not extremely dense. 
 

One thing I notice is a protein layer developing where the surface movement does not reach because floaters block flow. Keep an eye out and use a paper towel to sop up the protein or a small cup to skim it off the top. 

Will check the protein layer, so far i have not noticed any. Might be the shrimp and copious snails eat it?

[JettsPapa]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:57 AM, beastie said:

Will check the protein layer, so far i have not noticed any. Might be the shrimp and copious snails eat it?

Maybe.  I have a tank on my desk at work, stocked with guppies, shrimp, snails, and a dwarf Mexican crayfish, that doesn't have any mechanical filtration or water movement.  The only appliance it has is a light.  It never has a protein layer.

[JChristophersAdventures]

Thanks for that information, Guppysnail. I am beginning to plan the hardscape for a tank and was thinking to have the "wood" mounted around the rim area as a natural barrier to corral the plants, as opposed to burying it in the substrate like a tree. Is eliminating this protein layer the purpose behind a surface skimmer? Thanks.

[Guppysnail]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:49 AM, JChristophersAdventures said:

Is eliminating this protein layer the purpose behind a surface skimmer?

Yes but it is not needed. I keep fry with my shrimp so feed heavy with live and high protein foods. You probably won’t see a protein layer it’s just something to be aware of. 

[JChristophersAdventures]

Thanks! I appreciate you.

[Odd Duck]

Most surface floaters will tolerate a fair amount of subsurface water flow and I’ve had both red root floaters and frogbit be perfectly happy with bubbles from a sponge filter directly underneath the plants.  Some of my best frogbit growth has lots of water flow through the roots.  Not Panta Rhei flow, of course, but HOB, powerhead, or airstone flow.  I’ve got a pretty good sized pump in my outside tub with dripping from the “hand pump” and subsurface flow and this was last year with frogbit.  This year I’ve tried red root floaters that’s been semi-successful - nowhere near as much growth as the frogbit last year.  The tub needs filled right now, usually the outlet you can see shooting water across from left to right is submerged.  The frogbit pic is nowhere near max density.  It was taken after I removed about 2/3 of the plants to give to a friend that had multiple, big outdoor tubs and needed shade for his fish.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Odd Duck
Typo

[Odd Duck]

In my tanks, I try to keep the surface floaters at no more than 75% coverage like @Guppysnail unless I have very good water circulation and aeration from underneath (better with both).  But I’d rather just keep some open surface.  I’ve found 3/8” silicone tubing to be very helpful in either containing floaters inside or outside the ring.  I use end to end connectors to close the circles and often attach them to suction cups with small zip ties.  Not fancy, but functional.  Or I’ll run an airline or cord for the heater through the ring to keep it in place but let it rise and fall with the water level.  I’ve even bought the small feeding rings that suction cup to the side of the tank with a hinged arm, cut the hinge bit off and glued it to bigger tubing rings.  I’ve also found that black silicone tubing disappears better in the tank but costs more than the “clear” which isn’t really clear but translucent.

You can see the super fancy zip ties in the first pic and the black hinged bit in the second and third pic.  The black suction cups on the hinges don’t last as well as the translucent suction cups have despite the cannibalized gizmos being made specifically for aquarium use.  I have run very hot water over the suction cups and bought a bit more functional time with them.

[beastie]

I tried the airline hose, held together with a rubber. will see how long it will last

 

[Odd Duck]

If your airline isn’t sealed to hold air, it won’t reliably float.  You can get end-to-end connectors for small airline but I found the double diameter airline to be much better at containing surface floaters. Even with double diameter rings they tend to overgrow and drift where they aren’t wanted.  With regular airline they will need pretty constant attendance.  If you only have one tank, that will be easy enough.  I like easier corralling since I have multiple tanks.

[Tanked]

@Odd DuckI think I've said this before.  I really like the Close Encounters vibe I get from this tank

[Odd Duck]

😆 That’s how it got named the volcano tank, since I posted a similar picture but the red roots were even darker and denser than this particular picture and somebody mentioned it looked like a volcano.  I liked the idea.

I wish it looked this good right now but it needs a major cleanup and revamp.  That’s on my “list”.  I’m leaving it “dirty” right now since I’m trying to raise some Pygmy sunfish and their fry are super tiny so they need the tiniest microlife.  So, “dirty” it is for now.