Seiryu Stone Questions

[Dork Fish]

My 2 questions are:

1) If the PH is raised by Seiryu Stone, will aqua soil and plants be enough to lower the PH without dosing?

2) What is the difference between the Blue seiryu stone and black mountain seiryu stone? You would think it would be the color but all pictures that I have seen of the two look identical (could just be cameras, lighting, etc.). If anyone has either of these and could share what they look like in the water, I would be grateful. 🙂

[Lennie]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:43 PM, Dork Fish said:

1) If the PH is raised by Seiryu Stone, will aqua soil and plants be enough to lower the PH without dosing?

Usually rocks dissolve when your ph is acidic. I already have high ph of 8.0, and no rocks, shells or cuttlebone dissolve in my water. So no effect on parameters

That being said, I also have a high kh of 20. So Even with a combination of aquasoil, catappa leaf, and alder cones as well as with some RO water changes, the lowest I have ever seen was 7.5 ph 😄 If you have a high kh, you barely can benefit from the buffer capacity of botanicals and aquasoil in my experience.

 

On 6/29/2023 at 8:43 PM, Dork Fish said:

2) What is the difference between the Blue seiryu stone and black mountain seiryu stone? You would think it would be the color but all pictures that I have seen of the two look identical (could just be cameras, lighting, etc.). If anyone has either of these and could share what they look like in the water, I would be grateful. 🙂

For this, I'm tagging the seiryu guy @nabokovfan87 😄 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Lennie

[Dork Fish]

@Lennie I will have to do some research on water parameters, I am familiar with pH but not kH and gH. 🙂

I heard that seiryu raises pH but not 100% sure of that.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/29/2023 at 10:43 AM, Dork Fish said:

1) If the PH is raised by Seiryu Stone, will aqua soil and plants be enough to lower the PH without dosing?

There's a few things going on here.....

If you have a lower PH the acidic water will allow the stone to release more KH. If the PH is higher, less so. It sort of "balances" itself out in that respect. The second aspect of this question is entirely about how stable is your KH right now. Keep in mind that when you say PH what we really care about discussing is the minerals that give they stability.... KH.

Alright, so caveat out of the way, the real question is how much are we *really* talking about and what is the quality of that stone? Has it been acid washed? Does it have high mineral content? How old is the soil?

In a more practical sense, the answer is exactly what you're getting onto.... The rock will raise the value and the soil will absorb some of that. Absolutely. Normally the rock will almost never have a severe impact on the water, but if you're talking an aquascape with buckets full of big mineral rocks then I would consider testing it.

The second aspect to help accomplish the balance is to acid wash the stone to remove some of the minerals or to buy what is called "black seiryu" which already  has had this done. Then making sure you have a good amount of soil that isn't 5+ years old.

 

On 6/29/2023 at 10:43 AM, Dork Fish said:

2) What is the difference between the Blue seiryu stone and black mountain seiryu stone? You would think it would be the color but all pictures that I have seen of the two look identical (could just be cameras, lighting, etc.). If anyone has either of these and could share what they look like in the water, I would be grateful. 🙂

Blue stones have a blueish tint like a cool grey color, grey is grey/normal/unsorted usually, and then black seiryu is sorted to have small veins of minerals or was acid washed.

Black would be the go to if you're specifically talking about visuals. There's a lot of grey awuascaping rock and each seller seems to call the same stuff by a different name.

On 6/29/2023 at 11:36 AM, Dork Fish said:

I will have to do some research on water parameters, I am familiar with pH but not kH and gH. 🙂

Start here....

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/ph-gh-kh

Please feel free to ask away as there is a sort of "level 2" bit of information.

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 This is great info!

I was looking at buce plant, but they are out of the black seiryu stone. Not sure if theirs is acid washed anyway.

@nabokovfan87 Where do you get your acid washed seiryu stone?

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:16 PM, Dork Fish said:

@nabokovfan87 Where do you get your acid washed seiryu stone?

The only stone I have I was able to get from the co-op and I washed it myself.

They sell seiryu in a lot of places, the acid is used for pools and commonly available at hardware stores as well.

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 So will the pH increase be noticeable without an acid wash? I kinda like the look of the blue seiryu stone. 🙂

[Flipper]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:16 PM, Dork Fish said:

@nabokovfan87 This is great info!

I was looking at buce plant, but they are out of the black seiryu stone. Not sure if theirs is acid washed anyway.

@nabokovfan87 Where do you get your acid washed seiryu stone?

@Dork Fish @Lennie

@nabokovfan87

Just received 4 lbs of "Black Mountain Seiryu Stone" from Buce; no mention of acid wash.  It is much darker than a couple of pieces of regular Seiryu I got from my local fish store.  I attached a picture of the ones from Buce.

I may not use the beautiful, dark rocks I received because they failed the acid test.  The lighter pieces from my LFS passed the acid test.  Since Seiryu hasn't been exported from Japan since 2008, I don't know how we're supposed to know what kind of rocks these really are.  Any comments or corrections will be appreciated.  I may be worrying too much about my new 8 gallon tank setup.  (Picture won't cooperate, my light is making the rocks look lighter.  They are fairly dark bluish black.)

 

 

For comparison of colors:

The stones are on top of Eco-Complete black sustrate, which I see as dark greyish, brownish.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:03 PM, Dork Fish said:

@nabokovfan87 So will the pH increase be noticeable without an acid wash? I kinda like the look of the blue seiryu stone. 🙂

In either situation there is going to be some PH increase due to KH going up. Just the nature of KH is that organics in the tank (like fish waste, wood, botanicals, etc.) will "use up" that trashcan and when it's full the PH drops. This could balance out that shift, but it's hard to specifically say what will happen because each stone is unique. See below.....

Dense, thick mineral bands. sometimes you will even see large white sections of the stone present that are very thick.

 

Less thick banding but some mineral sections, which may or may not be removed when it's cleaned.

A mix.... Two pieces with almost no mineral bands.

So.... Depending what you select and if you axid wash it, will determine what exactly that change is.

You can always get the stone, add it to a bucket and let it soak, then test the water in a few days.

What is your GH, KH, PH currently?

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 My tank is not set up yet. I have just been trying to get everything I need to get it started. I bought the sand, lava rock, bio-substrate. I still have to get the rock and wood. I will be putting around 30-40 pounds rock in the aquarium. I just want to make sure that with so much rock, I won't be sky-rocketing the pH LOL. Although, I am going to test my tap to see if I need other equipment for the water, will let you know what the results are after I do it.

Do you know of a rock similar-ish to the blueish-gray color of 'seiryu' that is pH neutral? I love the texture of 'elephant skin stone' but I think it would be too light in a tank with 'carib sea moonlight sand', wouldn't contrast very well.

For example brook stone and rhino stone are medium grayish but I cannot find anything on how pH is affected.

@Flipper Thank you for letting me know. Those are nice looking rock. I just don't want to have to acid wash them if I don't have to. I would also be interested to know what kind of rock they, with the export ban and all. 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/30/2023 at 6:56 AM, Dork Fish said:

Do you know of a rock similar-ish to the blueish-gray color of 'seiryu' that is pH neutral?

Check out "mountain stone" which is sort of the common name for grey stuffs. There is also rhino stone, elephant skin stone, and a variety of other "bins" that grey stones get used for.

On 6/30/2023 at 6:56 AM, Dork Fish said:

moonlight sand'

Oh no..... Did you already open thos sand?

On 6/30/2023 at 6:56 AM, Dork Fish said:

For example brook stone and rhino stone are medium grayish but I cannot find anything on how pH is affected.

Agreed and the confusion is real! Essentially, those bands of white minerals is all you really have to be concerned with. That's the buffering part that impacts KH.

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 No I did not open the sand. Is that sand not good?

[nabokovfan87]

It's very very very very very fine. So it's almost always in the after column when you're working on the tank.

I would recommend changing it for the crystal river or torpedo beach if you want the white sand visual. So much easier to work with, still very fine to the eye and it is something that won't damage equipment in the tank.

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 Ah okay I didn't know that. Just saw a bunch of youtubers recommending it. So the crystal river sand is not as fine, and won't fly around the tank then?

Looks like the torpedo beach is on the coarse side.

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 Yeah looks like the Moonlight sand is 0.25-0.75mm and the crystal river is 0.5-1.0mm (I am assuming on average it is on the 1mm side though). Is that enough of a size difference to prevent damage to equipment? Or is the larger Torpedo Beach sand really the recommended size (0.5-2mm)?

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:22 AM, Dork Fish said:

So the crystal river sand is not as fine, and won't fly around the tank then?

Looks like the torpedo beach is on the coarse side.

Crystal River is slightly smaller than torpedo beach, but I think they are extremely similar. I have crystal river in one tank, planning to swap out the moonlight sand on another with torpedo beach!

 

On 6/30/2023 at 8:35 AM, Dork Fish said:

@nabokovfan87 Yeah looks like the Moonlight sand is 0.25-0.75mm and the crystal river is 0.5-1.0mm (I am assuming on average it is on the 1mm side though). Is that enough of a size difference to prevent damage to equipment? Or is the larger Torpedo Beach sand really the recommended size (0.5-2mm)?

Keep in mind that is simply a range. Overall average size is pretty significantly different. The moonlight I would argue on average is a lot closer to the 0.25mm and the others are a lot closer to that 1.0mm in consistency.

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 Thank you very much! As usually saving me a ton a headache 🙂

I just remembered that the person I bought the tank and stand from gave me an unopened 20 pound bag of torpedo beach sand. My LFS said I can swap out my moonlight for other sand. Will probably go for torpedo beach being that it is more coarse and I already have the 20 pound bag.

[Flipper]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:28 PM, Flipper said:

@Dork Fish @Lennie

@nabokovfan87

Just received 4 lbs of "Black Mountain Seiryu Stone" from Buce; no mention of acid wash.  It is much darker than a couple of pieces of regular Seiryu I got from my local fish store.  I attached a picture of the ones from Buce.

I may not use the beautiful, dark rocks I received because they failed the acid test.  The lighter pieces from my LFS passed the acid test.  Since Seiryu hasn't been exported from Japan since 2008, I don't know how we're supposed to know what kind of rocks these really are.  Any comments or corrections will be appreciated.  I may be worrying too much about my new 8 gallon tank setup.  (Picture won't cooperate, my light is making the rocks look lighter.  They are fairly dark bluish black.)

 

 

For comparison of colors:

The stones are on top of Eco-Complete black sustrate, which I see as dark greyish, brownish.

I paid a ridiculous price for the stone I got from Buce.  To get the 2 big pieces in the picture I posted and 2 tiny pieces, I paid for 4 lbs which cost $40. I feel a little foolish now that I may not even use it, worrying about bringing my pH up.  I requested to be emailed when the rock was back in stock and within a week, I placed my order.  My normal parameters:  pH about 7.6, nitrAtes is 15 - 20.  Last time I checked gH and kH, they were slightly toward the hard side.  @nabokovfan87 Fan87, chime in here if you will.  @Dork Fish and I are concerned about the same thing.  Any thoughts on my vinegar test for bubbles?  I'd like to use the rocks, if safe.

Picture shows the difference in color between the Buce pieces and the lighter colored rock I got from LFS.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/30/2023 at 3:16 PM, Flipper said:

Any thoughts on my vinegar test for bubbles?  I'd like to use the rocks, if safe.

all of the rocks shown are going to have a vinegar reaction.  I would argue the ones on the right have been soaked in vinegar or have been acid washed to remove some of the minerals and clean up the "shine".  That is why those rocks have that style of finish.  The normal "whitish grey" on the LFS rocks is very much normal and safe!  There isn't a concern of whether or not these rocks are safe to use, they absolutely are. 

If you take all of these rocks and put them in a 1G tank, I would encourage verifying the hardness is fine after the end of the week.  If they are going into a 40G tank or larger it's not going to do much at all. 

Just as a broad example... this is a "good amount" of rock.  This is when you really have to monitor how drastic of an impact the rock has on the tank.

 

For your use case, those minerals feed the plant.  If you're planning to put in a bunch of fish that require low PH or blackwater conditions, that would be counter intuitive, but there are plenty of fish that do not mind some minerals in the water. 

Hopefully this helps, please feel free to ask any questions.  If you have any concerns at all, toss all the rocks into a bucket of water and test the KH/GH every day for a week.  It gives you an idea of what you're dealing with!

Edited July 1, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 Got the moonlight switched out for the torpedo sand, thank you for the advice! 🙂

Also got an AP:I master test kit and GH/KH test kit as well. Will post my tap water parameters after I test it 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

sweet.  please let me know what you think of it!

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 Will do! Just have to test my tap water, and buy some rock/wood first LOL

Then I can finally set my 75 gallon tank up and start the cycle

Edited July 1, 2023 by Dork Fish
grammar

[Dork Fish]

@nabokovfan87 In the pics you posted above, you said that amount of rock might be a problem for pH. I was thinking of putting 40ish pounds (maybe more if needed) of stone in the tank. My tap parameters are:

without brita:  pH: 8.4 | GH: 7 | KH: 4
with brita:  pH: 8.2 | GH: 7 | KH: 4

[anewbie]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:43 PM, Dork Fish said:

My 2 questions are:

1) If the PH is raised by Seiryu Stone, will aqua soil and plants be enough to lower the PH without dosing?

2) What is the difference between the Blue seiryu stone and black mountain seiryu stone? You would think it would be the color but all pictures that I have seen of the two look identical (could just be cameras, lighting, etc.). If anyone has either of these and could share what they look like in the water, I would be grateful. 🙂

This is not a good way to think things. The actual ph of the water is for the most part little importance to the fish - though some fishes can't tolerate extreme (like keeping cardinals at 8.5 ph); having said that the problem is why the ph rises and that is what should concern you - worse is if the two are 'cancelling' each other out what sort of chemical reaction is taking place in the water should be the concern.

Edited July 1, 2023 by anewbie

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/1/2023 at 8:44 AM, Dork Fish said:

@nabokovfan87 In the pics you posted above, you said that amount of rock might be a problem for pH. I was thinking of putting 40ish pounds (maybe more if needed) of stone in the tank. My tap parameters are:

without brita:  pH: 8.4 | GH: 7 | KH: 4
with brita:  pH: 8.2 | GH: 7 | KH: 4

The Brita filter is basically like running carbon in your filter. Not a huge need to run your aquarium water changes through that.

What size is your tank? Usually what people use is about 1 lb per gallon, I believe.

If you're using much more, like 3-5lbs per gallon of water, that's where I would use caution.