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Possible Fish TB diagnosis for CPD's?


BF McUmber
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Hello All, I have a group of CPD’s that I have been having issues with for about a year now. It seemed like things were better so I got some more fish and now one is showing similar symptoms which is concerning.  

 

Symptoms and question. 

When my CPD’s were dying it was frustrating and I did not keep track of exact numbers of how each one died. However, I think at least 4 of the Celestial Pearl Danios died in a similar manner which is my current concern. When I asked my LFS they thought it may be Fish Tuberculosis which would be a little tragic. I was wondering if any of you had any additional thoughts or confirmations to what I have seen. The symptoms and progression of the fish of note are as follows:  

  1. They got some damage on their sides that looked like a few missing scales. 

  2. The tissue under this area may get slightly inflamed such that it is larger than the other side of the fish. 

  3. The fish may get a bend to their body along its length. 

  4. The fish would lose control of their balance and start swimming on an angle and having to keep swimming to keep up. 

  5. The fish would lay on the bottom on its side just breathing. 

  6. Death or euthanization. 

It seems like the fish would live through the mark on its side for week or so and then would deteriorate quickly over a few days. 

 

I had a single CPD for about 4 months that did not appear to get sick, so I got her some friends to hopefully increase her happiness. Recently I had a brave little fish that wanted to take the gravel vac ride. In doing so she got a small amount of damage on her side (I am assuming that the fish with the damage took the ride solely based on timing). This small mark seems to be progressing in the same manner as the previous cases which is concerning. She has had the skin damage for about 9 days but in the past 3 she has taken a turn for the worse. She is having trouble swimming as well as having inflammation near the damage site. This made me wonder if it was the same illness that I had before, but it could just be complications from the damage. 

If you have any thoughts as to what you think it may be I would love to hear your opinions. 


 

Background

I originally bought 12 fish about a year ago. Some of them were on the thin side but it was the first time that the shop had had them in over a year so I bought them. I treated them with the MED TRIO to try to get them healthy in quarantine. Fairly quickly a few of them died due to my inexperience and then the others intermittently died in various ways over the next 7 months. After all the death I ended up with one fish that thrived alone. After about a month of her being alone with some shrimp I decided to move my lipstick goby’s to the tank with her. I had the wild caught gobies for just under 2 years, so they may have been towards the end of life… but they died in the tank with the single CPD and amano shrimp. I also had an amanao shrimp get berried or have something wrong with it, unsure which it was I put some salt in the water and it cleared the fuzz and mass under their abdomen. After 3 months of being alone it seemed like the CPD was doing fine, so 2 months ago I bought 3 new CPD’s to keep her company and she was much happier. I put salt in the tank with the new batch and did not treat it with any medications. Over the next month the 4 CPD’s looked fat and happy. Finally the LFS got more CPD’s in so I got another female as well as a guppy for my guppy tank. The new CPD is a little thin at the neck and the stomach looks really pouchy compared to the other CPDs which are more torpedo shaped. However she was eating well so I tried not to worry. Then 9 days ago one of the CPD’s took a gravel vac ride. I cannot tell the two big females apart so I’m going to assume that the one that took the ride is the one that has the now damaged scales. In the past few weeks I have increased the salt concentration up to 2TBSP per 3 gallons. Additionally as the fish looked well I put some paracleanse in the tank a day after the fish took the gravel vac ride (8 days ago).  

 

It would be slightly tragic if it is fish TB because I really want to get the guppy in the tank over to the one i'm hoping to have him mate with before she gets too old. If we are scared that the tank has TB then i'll have to go get another guppy and put them in the tank without any quarantine which seems scary as well. 

 

Tank Parameters: 

  • 10 gallon tank with moss and hair alagae

  • pH: 6.8

  • Nitrates: ~25ppm

  • Hardness over 300  mostly magnesium 

  • Nitrite: 0 ppm

  • Ammonia: 0 ppm

  • KH/Buffer : 40 ppm

  • Water Temperature:  74F

    Below are some pictures that I have. I did not photograph all the fish in man of the stages. Additionally it was terribly difficult to get pictures of the fish as they were moving. I think the one picture showing the bleeding fish is a much deeper wound than many of the other fish that seems to be much shallower. It is possible that the amano got to it at some point. 


    image.jpeg.3644101c872a2e8d1cf402f5f96faee3.jpeg
    An earlier death in the final bits of the sickness. 



    image.jpeg.2cfc6a0a32611b6d04d2007556026406.jpeg
    One of the last fish to die with by far the worst skin damage

    image.jpeg.82442a1d72af09b417ca1ff10c016f02.jpeg
    One of the last fish with by far the worst skin damage sowing some axial deformity

    image.jpeg.d4a550a017eb77c360c198016482b32b.jpeg
    One of the last fish with by far the worst skin damage

    image.jpeg.076507778c5a51dcd60daed5d0b47319.jpeg
    Current fish of interest

    image.jpeg.ddfde67db2df44e2b5e38981519529c6.jpeg
    Current fish of interest

    image.jpeg.120c400ff1692c6bf54f68fcd5e5b66c.jpeg
    Current fish of interest 

    image.jpeg.4de94d9fea8a294f3be88612f6d6c937.jpegCurrent fish of interest, but I think the camera or its swimming makes the spine look worse than it is. Also this one did not bleed from its wound when lifted above water. 

    Thank you!

image.jpeg

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From what I have read CPD can kill each other this could be injuries caused by fighting have you notice any aggressive behaviour between them the one with the big wound that could have died and they have feed on it that why it looks worse then the others @Guppysnailhas more experience with CPD behaviour and can chip on possible aggression I couldn't rule out a bacterial component so it might be worthwhile treating with kanaplex @BF McUmber

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With the first bunch I had they definitely would spar. I never saw them nip at each other but they did flare up and do their circle dance. 

With the bunch that I have now I've only seen really any aggression in the past day or so when they would follow the struggling fish. 

There was an amano in there when the one with the bigger wound was in there. They could have been opportunistic with the weaker fish as well. Also note that the bleeding fish is still alive. It's been long enough that I can't remember how well they were swimming though. 

Thank you for the response @Colu

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Yes I have seen many wounds. Some fatal some not. If it looks the size of the mouth then it’s probably a wound. I have also seen skin damage done by rough mating. As they embrace they shimmy in plants and sometimes scrape against things. 
I have noted when I add new groups to keep the genetics from becoming stale, some group are considerably more aggressive to one another than others. 

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The initial damage is typically around the size of a mouth or marginally larger.  I want to say the majority of the times the damages was in a location that can be seen on the bottom most picture. 

@Guppysnailwhen the bite wounds are fatal do you usually see as the fish progress from injury to death? 

The slightly switching back to the guppy question.  Do you think there is a way to confirm that it is agression? If not it may be in my best interest to go get the brother to the guppy I got before so that it may get old enough to breed in time.  I think my female is like a little over a year old.  

 

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On 5/26/2023 at 12:57 PM, BF McUmber said:

The slightly switching back to the guppy question.  Do you think there is a way to confirm that it is agression? If not it may be in my best interest to go get the brother to the guppy I got before so that it may get old enough to breed in time.  I think my female is like a little over a year old.  

even no it's more then likely aggression causing the death your seeing I couldn't rule out a bacterial component to the deaths at this time i would hole off moving your guppy for now 

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On 5/26/2023 at 7:57 AM, BF McUmber said:

Guppysnailwhen the bite wounds are fatal do you usually see as the fish progress from injury to death? 

Over the years I have tried to heal in a Qt. Even when they heal and are reintroduced they get beat up harshly again. Mine don’t nip. They do a poke midsection to flank section.

These guys do not play. When one takes a good hit it usually hits organs and progresses to off kilter swimming and death or pine coning 

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On 5/26/2023 at 10:18 AM, Colu said:

even no it's more then likely aggression causing the death your seeing I couldn't rule out a bacterial component to the deaths at this time i would hole off moving your guppy for now 

I would get a new guppy from the store, not move the one I have. That is on the thought that something is going on that would constrain the guppy i have to the tank (like tb), even though that does not seem to be a main contender here.  

I will stop at the store and get the bacterial  treatment I think I only have maracyn at home. 

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I got the kanaplex and put it in the tank. We will see how it turns out. It would be nice if it was just aggression. 

I also got the brother guppy. he was a hell of a spaz when I put him in the tank, trying to escape through the gravel. I put a towel over the tank and he appears to have calmed down, they appear to be in sleep mode. Maybe I'll leave the towel on till the morning and just skip feeding tonight to hopefully keep him calm. 

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  • 3 months later...

The Kanaplex and other things definitely seemed to prolong the fish's life longer than some of the others, however unfortunately she did not improve and died on June 6th.

Now, the 3 CPD's, the male guppy, and the amano shrimp have lived in the tank for 2+ months. They seem to look adequate from what I can tell. I would like to move them out of the quarantine tank and into my work tank. This tank is a little more publicly viewed, and I have some reservations based on the thought of it being something like fish TB or something that could continually come back. So my questions are two that I was hoping to get from more experienced minds. 

1. We have said that it is unlikely that is fish TB. However, if we assume for a second that it is, I seem to find conflicting data on what to do. Are you of the belief that all tanks have fish TB in subcritical levels? (Such that it would be arguably inconsequential to move them.)

2. After having a possible sickness outbreak, how long would you typically wait before calling the fish good enough to go into the display tank with the other fish? 

Thank you, 
Brad

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