Sponge filters for new fish room & What works the best for cycling many at once?

[Lennie]

Hey guys,

Lately I have been working on a big fish room that will be mainly about breeding fish, snails and shrimp for my LFS. 

I found an air pump with versions of 4-6-8 outlets and it has pretty good comments on performance and low sound. So I guess I will go with that one.

 

I have never set up so many tanks at once in my life, I usually always get MTS and start another but only one at a time. I currently have 4 tanks+ 1 Qt tub. 50 liter community tub, 75liter qt tub, 160 liter community tank, 125 liter betta sorority,  40 liter betta tank.

 

But for the fish room, I need to setup multiple tanks at once. What would be the best way to get all the new sponges cycled? Should I dump them in my current tanks let them run there for a while? I usually do that when I setup a new tank, but I feel like too many new sponges can be a bit too much for the fish the tanks?

I need this cycling producedure to get over asap, and usually introducing a filter from an established tank works the best. While getting my tanks custom made, I wanna try my sponges get cycled fast some way.

 

Also, do you guys have any experience with different type of sponge filters? If you had a chance to compare  any similar to the versions below, what was your experience like? Do these ones with biomedia slot work good or unneccary? I have 4 HOBS, so I can instantly put media into these if it works okay.

I like my sponge a bit fine, either on prefilter or as sponge filter itself. 

This is what I use in my qt tub:

Thanks for the help.

@Fish Folk maybe you may share some opinion dude

Edited May 23, 2023 by Lennie

[RennjiDK]

Fastest way? Put them all in a tote with a bottle of tetra safestart and dose NH3 to 2ppm. Should only take around 48hrs before you see a 0/0/8 reading if the bottle is good.

As far as media is concerned, here is a rough guide of the surface area available by type:

Edited May 23, 2023 by RennjiDK

[Lennie]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:31 PM, RennjiDK said:

Fastest way? Put them all in a tote with a bottle of tetra safestart and dose NH3 to 2ppm. Should only take around 48hrs before you see a 0/0/8 reading if the bottle is good.

Bottled bacteria is not commonly used here, so I bet that's why they dont carry them much. The easiest one to reach is Stability, which I believe works good, but def not fast by any means. We don't have fritz as well.

Also I haven't come by aquarium safe ammonia bottles here.

So this is sadly out of the plan 😄

 

[RennjiDK]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:35 PM, Lennie said:

Bottled bacteria is not commonly used here, so I bet that's why they dont carry them much. The easiest one to reach is Stability, which I believe works good, but def not fast by any means. We don't have fritz as well.

Also I haven't come by aquarium safe ammonia bottles here.

So this is sadly out of the plan 😄

 

Stability will work, it's just really slow IMO. If you cant source pure form of NH3/NH4, then you will be limited by the time it will take to create it from decomposing organic matter.

[TOtrees]

If you’re any tanks with cycled media, I’d  use the squeezing so from that in an otherwise-empty tank with the new sponge filters.

Personally, I am a proponent of the “headstart” method for cycling sponges. This is my own name for it and not something you’ll read about, so don’t bother searching (although to be clear, it’s not a new process, it’s just something I’m throwing a name to today for kicks and giggles.). All it means is that you try to get some beneficial bacteria from an established tank into the new tank and filter to jumpstart the process, as opposed to fishless cycling. I see it like this: if you have 10 fish in a 20 gallon tank, that is cycled, and you add another 10 fish (which we all do all the time), that tank/media isn’t “cycled“ for all 20 fish, and the bacteria population has to catch up with the increased bioload. I have never once read about anyone over feeding a tank to grow the bacteria population large enough to host the extra 10 fish, before actually adding the extra 10 fish. We all call that overfeeding and it’s universally accepted as bad.

So, as long as you have some beneficial bacteria (e.g. what you get from squeezing out a few established, sponges), that’s where I start from. 

You also asked about what type of sponge filters. 100% all day long every time my answer is Hydro pro sponge filters.

Edited May 23, 2023 by TOtrees

[Fish Folk]

@Lennie it usually takes several weeks for sponges to colonize autotrophic bacteria sufficiently. I’d put some in your current tanks. Maybe you can put some elsewhere to colonize… LFS? Friend’s tank(s)?

Videos from Mark’s Aquatics feature the double sponge, mounted on aquarium side frequently.

Personally, I like the ACO sponges, medium / coarse sponge porosity.

Exciting that you’re setting up a new fishroom. Ben Franklin has wisdom for all of us: “Haste makes waste.” 

[Guppysnail]

@Lennie Gravel, hardscape (wood decor etc) plants all carry over beneficial bacteria to get you a head start as well as sponge squeezing. So add plants and such to existing tanks now that you intend to put in your new tanks. 
I particularly like squeezing sponges as @TOtreessaid because you carry over microfauna as well as bacteria and mulm to feed the bacteria and microfauna. 
 

I had a dual sponge like those once. It did fine but clogged quick due to being fine. Once it clogged it did not do so hot. I prefer the coarse because I am lazy (too busy tending my worm farm 🤣) and hate cleaning filters. 
 

Your new adventure sounds fantastic. I hope you start a journal for your build and setup and continued adventure. 

[hawgs911]

Only issue I have with the sponge filters with the bio-media is that there is no way (that I can find) to add an air stone.  So they are quite noisy.  For a fish room that might not matter much.  They do suction to the tank so they are more flexible as to where you can put them.

 

[Lennie]

On 5/24/2023 at 5:18 PM, hawgs911 said:

Only issue I have with the sponge filters with the bio-media is that there is no way (that I can find) to add an air stone.  So they are quite noisy.  For a fish room that might not matter much.  They do suction to the tank so they are more flexible as to where you can put them.

I am probably a lil weird when it comes to this, but I find normal bubble noises better than airstone noises! That's why I either use my sponge filters without airstone, Or I use air diffusers directly instead of airstone 😄 

 

[Lennie]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:50 AM, Fish Folk said:

@Lennie it usually takes several weeks for sponges to colonize autotrophic bacteria sufficiently. I’d put some in your current tanks. Maybe you can put some elsewhere to colonize… LFS? Friend’s tank(s)?

Videos from Mark’s Aquatics feature the double sponge, mounted on aquarium side frequently.

Personally, I like the ACO sponges, medium / coarse sponge porosity.

Exciting that you’re setting up a new fishroom. Ben Franklin has wisdom for all of us: “Haste makes waste.” 

I'm very excited as well! I have been unhappy lawyering and try want a difference in my career path. Hope this helps me to feel renewed. 

Probably the best idea would be focusing on the guaranteed list they buy so often in very high number, so I better setup those tanks first, and slowly expand my fishroom step by step. Im gonna try seperating 6 sponges between my seasoned tanks. After I remove them and put them on their new tank after seeded, maybe I can also squeeze filter gunk to new tanks too, and then I can put another 6 sponges and so on

 

On 5/24/2023 at 3:35 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Lennie Gravel, hardscape (wood decor etc) plants all carry over beneficial bacteria to get you a head start as well as sponge squeezing. So add plants and such to existing tanks now that you intend to put in your new tanks. 
I particularly like squeezing sponges as @TOtreessaid because you carry over microfauna as well as bacteria and mulm to feed the bacteria and microfauna. 
 

I had a dual sponge like those once. It did fine but clogged quick due to being fine. Once it clogged it did not do so hot. I prefer the coarse because I am lazy (too busy tending my worm farm 🤣) and hate cleaning filters. 
 

Your new adventure sounds fantastic. I hope you start a journal for your build and setup and continued adventure. 

I can take cuttings from my tanks but yknow me, they are mostly scaped and has aquasoil. If I try to get substrate, I will end up with a mud on my hand 🤣 The only non aquasoil tank is the one with pest snails. So not willing to put them in every tank I have.

Maybe I can make that one work for my assasin snail tank, as my LFS wanted me to breed lots of them

 

 

On 5/24/2023 at 2:19 AM, TOtrees said:

If you’re any tanks with cycled media, I’d  use the squeezing so from that in an otherwise-empty tank with the new sponge filters.

Personally, I am a proponent of the “headstart” method for cycling sponges. This is my own name for it and not something you’ll read about, so don’t bother searching (although to be clear, it’s not a new process, it’s just something I’m throwing a name to today for kicks and giggles.). All it means is that you try to get some beneficial bacteria from an established tank into the new tank and filter to jumpstart the process, as opposed to fishless cycling. I see it like this: if you have 10 fish in a 20 gallon tank, that is cycled, and you add another 10 fish (which we all do all the time), that tank/media isn’t “cycled“ for all 20 fish, and the bacteria population has to catch up with the increased bioload. I have never once read about anyone over feeding a tank to grow the bacteria population large enough to host the extra 10 fish, before actually adding the extra 10 fish. We all call that overfeeding and it’s universally accepted as bad.

So, as long as you have some beneficial bacteria (e.g. what you get from squeezing out a few established, sponges), that’s where I start from. 

You also asked about what type of sponge filters. 100% all day long every time my answer is Hydro pro sponge filters.

I tried this squeezing method before with addition of underdosed stability and a few pieces of matrix around the hob, it still took me around 2-2.5 weeks to cycle the tank. How long does it take you this way?

I feel like keeping sponges in a seasoned tank for 2.5 weeks might be a more guaranteed solution to have it seeded, and then squeeze filter gunk in the new tank around the sponge? 

 

Thank you guys btw @TOtrees @Guppysnail @Fish Folk 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I think the suggestion before by @RennjiDKof getting a tote like a 27 gallon, get an air pump, and run all the sponges you need in there and then squeeze media from 2-3 tanks into the tote water and then just add some fish food every couple days in 48-72 hours you’d have some well seeded sponges. The water you use for the tote could be water change water too. Going forward always keep bags of media or extra sponges around in mature tanks for backup. Have fun. 

For me and my now 3 attempts at fish rooms some form of auto-water change system is essential. Being able to flip a switch or push a button in an app is really necessary. Sure each day you’ll need to spend time doing touch ups in terms of Mulm management with some hose based siphoning but having that ability to change all the water in your fish room will make it easier for you to have that special time that will help you clue in to what each tank needs to be it’s best and breed successfully. 

[Lennie]

On 5/24/2023 at 6:37 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

I think the suggestion before by @RennjiDKof getting a tote like a 27 gallon, get an air pump, and run all the sponges you need in there and then squeeze media from 2-3 tanks into the tote water and then just add some fish food every couple days in 48-72 hours you’d have some well seeded sponges. The water you use for the tote could be water change water too. Going forward always keep bags of media or extra sponges around in mature tanks for backup. Have fun. 

For me and my now 3 attempts at fish rooms some form of auto-water change system is essential. Being able to flip a switch or push a button in an app is really necessary. Sure each day you’ll need to spend time doing touch ups in terms of Mulm management with some hose based siphoning but having that ability to change all the water in your fish room will make it easier for you to have that special time that will help you clue in to what each tank needs to be it’s best and breed successfully. 

Many thanks!

I use both RO water and tap water in my tanks, as I have a water softener, so I manually have to balance every tank I have. I know it is a bit of work, but it's fine. It does not bother me.

My tap reads 8.0 ph, 0 gh, 20 nitrate, 20kh. My RO reads 6.0 ph, 0 gh, 0 nitrate, 0 kh. 

So both are playing kinda the extremes as you can see. I always remineralize my water, and balance the ratio and ph/kh based on the species. So besides it being costy, auto water change system may not really work for me. 

Like I will have caridinas and neocaridinas my LFS requested on the same rack.

 

[TOtrees]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:47 AM, Lennie said:

I tried this squeezing method before with addition of underdosed stability and a few pieces of matrix around the hob, it still took me around 2-2.5 weeks to cycle the tank. How long does it take you this way?

I feel like keeping sponges in a seasoned tank for 2.5 weeks might be a more guaranteed solution to have it seeded, and then squeeze filter gunk in the new tank around the sponge?

Re "how long does it take me this way": it's more a question of how long I'm willing or able to wait. I don't test as I go. Bacteria populations are super-responsive; in the right conditions, they'll grow (reproduce) like crazy. Interweb believes that doubling time for nitrifying bacteria under optimal conditions is 15 hours, so a day or so? Meaning, if the bacteria have a good home (eg filter media), with physical space available (room to grow), and unlimited food (= ammonia in the tank, with current flow or circulation bringing the food to the place where the bacteria are), the bb will catch up with increases in the fish population really fast. In truth, our need to limit the amount of ammonia in the water is likely going to be what limits the growth of the bacteria population more than anything. The other question here is where on the geometric growth curve you are. Eg doubling can mean going from 100 to 200 bacteria in a day (not really helpful) or it can mean going from 10 million to 20 million (now we're getting somewhere). My thought is that the heavy filter squeezings that result in lots of mulm and gunk get me closer to those high numbers than the low numbers, and if I'm immediately adding the fish or fish food the bacteria need to keep growing, they'll do what I need. Nerd goes to excel: 20 million is one doubling away from 10 million, but 10 million is ~14 doublings or 2 weeks from 100 (don't quote me on a day here or there this is ballpark math). So jumpstarting the cycling with a ton of beautiful mucky filth is worth a couple weeks of fishless cycling, if you're starting from zero. 

So. When I introduce fish to a setup (new or existing, with fish or without), it's more about whether and how I can protect the health of the fish while the bacteria catch up, by underfeeding, changing water, and dosing prime or whatever. So I'd turn it around to you and ask what's your target or benchmark for being cycled? I think you're overthinking it or aiming too high (too concerned that small issues will affect your fish). But that's MY opinion, and I respect that we all bring different knowledge, comfort levels and ethics to our own hobby. There's no wrong answer, I'm just sharing info about my levels here. 

Also, regarding using running tanks to seed new sponges: My issue here is that the amount of bacteria in a running tank is a function of fish and feeding, not on the amount of filters or filter media. Let's say a tank can support 30 million bacteria, and all of them live in a single sponge filter. If you change nothing but add a second sponge filter, the tank can still only support 30 million bacteria. You can't coax 60 million bacteria out of that system. When you add the second sponge, all things being equal, over time, you'll end up with 15 million bacteria in each sponge. Take one out to start a new tank, and the original tank filter has to grow from 15 million back to 30 million (which based on my dissertation above is no big thing), and the filter in the new tank is off and running for a fish population of half what the original tank was, or the same after a day of growth. Again, I'm not saying it's exactly a day, or 15 hours, or whatever. But it's the concept of a little time vs a lot of time., and being far along the geometric growth curve vs near the start. CONVERSELY, how many bacteria from the original 30 million do you think get shed when you squeeze a dirty sponge out? If the squeezings includes half of the original population of 30 million, and mulm in the filter is a substrate so that's not unrealistic, then a single big filter cleaning might dump 15 million hypothetical mulm-inhabiting bacteria into the new tank. With a new naked sponge filter in the tank catching all that mulm, and a suitable amount of food in there as well, again great growth happens. One way it happens passively over 2 weeks, the other way it happens over however long it takes the filter to pick up all the mulm. 

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here. But I do think my knowledge of population growth rates (from my university days which are farther behind me than I'd like to admit) has been a really useful tool for me in my hobby, and I'm hoping to make that accessible to non-biologists who care to read my ramblings. 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@Lenniewhat you may want to do is go with a reservoir system - essentially a tank above the rack with your own after change water. You then have overflows either put on externally or drilled into the tanks and then when you turn on the pump from the reservoir with the water dripping into the tanks and you get you get your automatic water change. You can have one soft water reservoir and another neutral and even another hard water if you wanted and plumb the tanks you want on each reservoir. Marks Shrimp Tanks has this system and another shrimp breeder in Zenzo’s latest video has this as well. I’ve seen this design in other videos and discussed elsewhere. Good luck and have fun!

[pianoblack]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:35 PM, Lennie said:

Bottled bacteria is not commonly used here, so I bet that's why they dont carry them much. The easiest one to reach is Stability, which I believe works good, but def not fast by any means. We don't have fritz as well.

How come bottled bacteria is not commonly used? Is there a downside to using bottled bacteria?

[Lennie]

On 5/26/2023 at 2:50 AM, pianoblack said:

How come bottled bacteria is not commonly used? Is there a downside to using bottled bacteria?

All bottled bacteria brands are imported in my country, so in terms of price and effectiveness, they are costy for what they do. So I think market demand for them is pretty low for this reason.

When I came back to hobby, I cycled my first tank with stability as I have no friends that is into fishkeeping and did not want to get media from my lfs, but for my all other tanks, I just transfer established media from my seasoned tanks/filters and cycle with it instead.

I personally have only tried stability and it worked for me, however even the package says the cycling take about 6 weeks approximately but changes from one tank to another. So it does not exactly shorten the time much. But instead at least an option for those who can't access established media or can't fully trust the media they may get from a store or someone they know

Edited May 26, 2023 by Lennie