Lots of fish loss in quarantine

[Drew O]

I have been losing a surprising number of cardinal tetras in my quarantine process. I started with 65 and have lost 18 so far, with a few more that are withering away. The fish had quarantined at the store for two weeks and were treated with metronidazole. There were no loses at the store and the fish were eating well at the store.

When I brought them home I did have an ammonia spike (I am assuming due to the dead fish), but I am looking for any other potential issues. The fish that die appear to just slowly wither away. They will lose their color, have tattered/disintegrated fins, then sink or float upside down until they are finally dead. I am not seeing any external sores or parasites, and I have not seen any aggression.

Timeline:
5/6: Fish added
5/11: Quarantine Medication Trio added
5/15: 6 dead cardinals
5/16: 7 dead cardinals, one dead otto, ammonia reading almost 1ppm, 50% water change
5/17: 5 dead cardinals, one dead otto, ammonia reading 0.5 ppm, 50% water change

The pH has dropped from 8.4 to about 8 since the fish were added, but the other parameters have been stable at:

• pH: 8
• Nitrates: <20ppm
• Hardness: 300ppm
• Nitrite: 0ppm
• Ammonia: <0.5ppm
• KH/Buffer: 300ppm
• Water Temperature: 73 deg F

Any suggestions are welcome. It feels like I am missing something, but maybe this is just part of the process.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I'm so sorry for your losses.

I'd recommend adding Prime or another ammonia and nitrite detoxifying dechlorinator with water changes as long as the ammonia readings are there.  Medications can cause bacteria on the filter to die which could be another reason for a spike.  How long has the tank been up?  What types of filter are you using?  Do you have an airstone? What size is your quarantine tank?

I'd also recommend adding an extra airstone, as meds change the viscosity of the water and make it harder for fish to breathe.  

When I make a new fish purchase, I observe and I don't immediately treat, as meds alone can cause stress in fish.  If I see a symptom, I use a disease chart and try to pinpoint what it is and treat for just that.  I like using aquarium salt as well, as both a preventative and a treatment.  It is good for stress reduction, healing, and electrolytes. It's also great if you don't know what an illness is, as it cures a lot of ailments.

This is just what I do, but there are many approaches and opinions on the quarantine process.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish#:~:text=Level 1 Treatment&text=You can pour the salt,%2C it's not very strong).

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/Disease_Guide_Poster_Sm.pdf

Note: I don't necessarily use the Fritz products that this chart recommends. I have the med trio on hand and use those meds if the symptoms on the chart match what I'm seeing.  I purchase other meds if needed.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Drew O]

Thanks for the reply. I have been dosing prime with the water changes, would you recommend dosing extra during quarantine?

The tank is a 30 gallon and has been set up since April 15th. I have two sponge filters in the tank that came from an established tanks, so they should be seeded well with bacteria.

I chose to preventatively treat since these are going in a large display tank. Is salt ok to use alongside the med trio, or is it best to let the meds run the course and reevaluate.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:59 AM, Drew O said:

they should be seeded well with bacteria

They may not be if meds have killed this bacteria, resulting in the ammonia spike.

On 5/18/2023 at 9:59 AM, Drew O said:

Is salt ok to use alongside the med trio

Salt is safe to use alongside the med trio, but given the losses you've had, do you want to continue on with med trio or water change it out?  You have a lot of variables going on with 3 meds, and it will be difficult to pinpoint what is causing the losses, and more losses may occur if you stay the course.  Adding carbon will remove meds from water, if you go that route. My opinion is to reset with fresh, clean, dechlorinated water and observe.

Tagging some folks to see if we can get some more points of view.

@Colu @Odd Duck

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:59 AM, Drew O said:

would you recommend dosing extra during quarantine?

Not necessarily; I'd use as directed.  But the detoxifying effect does stop working within a day or so, and it will not prevent ammonia/nitrite readings.  You'll still see those on your tests, but they will be safe for the day.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Drew O]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:08 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

You have a lot of variables going on with 3 meds, and it will be difficult to pinpoint what is causing the losses, and more losses may occur if you stay the course

Using the 3 together seems to have a very good track record and is what is recommended. Have you used or tried using them together? 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:14 AM, Drew O said:

Using the 3 together seems to have a very good track record and is what is recommended. Have you used or tried using them together? 

Personally, I don't like to medicate unless necessary.  Again, varying approaches to this amongst different hobbyists. Here is another thread that has a lot of comments and thoughts, and it may have some similarities to your situation.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Drew O]

Thanks for the help. That gave a little more insight. If anyone has experience with the med trio I would love to hear from them too, since that’s the path I’m on.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:36 AM, Drew O said:

Thanks for the help. That gave a little more insight. If anyone has experience with the med trio I would love to hear from them too, since that’s the path I’m on.

Sure thing.  If you type med trio in the search bar for this site, you can find some more previous posts about using it as well.

[Colu]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:14 PM, Drew O said:

Using the 3 together seems to have a very good track record and is what is recommended. Have you used or tried using them together? 

With the symptoms your describing I think your dealing with fast moving bacterial infection with the colour loss disintegrating fins  what I would do is treat with a combination of kanaplex and jungal fungus clear fizz tabs containing nitrofurazone following this treatment plan 

[Guppysnail]

I agree with @Colu  The med trio is a milder preventative to knock out things that don’t yet have a foothold enough to cause symptoms. The mortality you are seeing needs full strength aggressive treatment. 

[Drew O]

Thanks Colu & Guppysnail! If it is a bacterial infection I am surprised that fish had no issues at the store or the week before meds. Maybe it just had enough time to work through the fish finally. My initial thought was some ammonia burns/poisoning. Is there a good way to distinguish between ammonia issues and bacterial?

I have already done two 50% water changes, so the majority of the original meds should be gone. Should I do more water changes before adding these different types of meds?

Edited May 18, 2023 by Drew O

[Guppysnail]

My speculation is they were somewhat successfully fending off the bacteria and the ammonia weakened them enough to fall ill or the ammonia itself did them in. Symptoms can show up days to weeks after a serious ammonia spike. Without medical tests I would no know how to tell the difference. 

[Drew O]

Do you think Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus clear are stronger than Maracyn?

Just curious why these over Maracyn?

Thanks.

[Colu]

On 5/18/2023 at 6:31 PM, Drew O said:

Do you think Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus clear are stronger than Maracyn?

Just curious why these over Maracyn?

Thanks.

The combination of the two provides a more broad spectrum antibiotic treatment that treats gram negative and some gram positive bacterial infections the best treatment for more severe bacterial infections like columnaris 

[Odd Duck]

What size tank and how many and what other fish do you have?  Also what filtration do you have?  I’m trying to get an idea of your existing bioload vs. filtration levels before you added a good number of new fish.

I suspect your high pH and the ammonia spike is a big part of the problems you’re seeing since ammonia is more dangerous to fish at higher pH.  Prime or other dechlorinator at the emergency dose would be appropriate at least every other day until the tank is stabilized again.  Plus consider adding some beneficial bacteria to help stabilize the tank and try to restore some possibly damaged biofiltration.  Whether you do the bottled bacteria or if you have another tank with no sick fish and you can squeeze out a bit of filter “gunk” into the tank having issues.

You will certainly have to treat the fish with antibiotics (follow @Colu’s recommendations there, he’s always on track) now since they are so ill but you probably have lost significant biofiltration along with damaged gills/skin from an ammonia spike with high pH.  Take steps to restore biofiltration as quickly as possible and use Prime (or similar) with water changes as needed to get the ammonia down as quickly as possible to protect the fish from their own wastes until back on track.  This does mean you’ll have to do some redosing to keep the antibiotics levels appropriate and effective.

[Galabar]

I'm curious -- with an ammonia spike could the gills have been damaged beyond what is repairable and they are slowing succumbing to that?

In terms of quarantining, I'm wondering what folks have had in their quarantine tanks before the new fish arrive.  Was it cycled?  Has it been empty for a while?  I understand that beneficial bacteria can go dormant and then come back when ammonia is again added.  However, I would guess that they would come back to the level of fish that they were previously servicing...

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/how-do-i-keep-a-quarantine-tank-cycled

Edited May 19, 2023 by Galabar

[Drew O]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:01 AM, Odd Duck said:

What size tank and how many and what other fish do you have?  Also what filtration do you have?  I’m trying to get an idea of your existing bioload vs. filtration levels before you added a good number of new fish.

This is a 29 gallon quarantine tank. it has two medium sponge filters. The tank was empty before setting up for quarantine and the sponge filters came from a 20 gallon tank that had some rosy barbs and corys. I believe I did not have enough beneficial bacteria or the meds wiped it out, which led to the ammonia spike.

My ammonia levels have been stable at <0.5ppm for a day now, and I have not had any losses since it has been <0.5ppm.

On 5/19/2023 at 12:01 AM, Odd Duck said:

I suspect your high pH and the ammonia spike is a big part of the problems you’re seeing since ammonia is more dangerous to fish at higher pH

I agree, but I did not know higher pH makes it more dangerous. Good to know.

On 5/19/2023 at 12:01 AM, Odd Duck said:

You will certainly have to treat the fish with antibiotics (follow @Colu’s recommendations there, he’s always on track) now since they are so ill but you probably have lost significant biofiltration along with damaged gills/skin from an ammonia spike with high pH.  Take steps to restore biofiltration as quickly as possible and use Prime (or similar) with water changes as needed to get the ammonia down as quickly as possible to protect the fish from their own wastes until back on track.  This does mean you’ll have to do some redosing to keep the antibiotics levels appropriate and effective.

I was able to track down those meds last night, so some more water changes will be happening as needed. Then it is back to meds.

Thanks all for the help. I feel like I at least have a game plan. It is definitely hard to think straight when you are losing fish left and right.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:24 AM, Galabar said:

In terms of quarantining, I'm wondering what folks have had in their quarantine tanks before the new fish arrive.  Was it cycled?  Has it been empty for a while?  I understand that beneficial bacteria can go dormant and then come back when ammonia is again added.

What I do is I keep an extra sponge filter running in my main tank.  The quarantine tank stays empty.  When I need to set up the quarantine tank, I use tank water for it as well as moving that sponge filter over. I also make sure to get the quarantine tank to the appropriate temperature with a heater before adding fish.

[Odd Duck]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:24 AM, Galabar said:

I'm curious -- with an ammonia spike could the gills have been damaged beyond what is repairable and they are slowing succumbing to that?

Yes, absolutely.  Ammonia can “burn” the gills and even the skin, then weaken them and cause all kinds of issues.

On 5/19/2023 at 8:37 AM, Drew O said:

This is a 29 gallon quarantine tank. it has two medium sponge filters. The tank was empty before setting up for quarantine and the sponge filters came from a 20 gallon tank that had some rosy barbs and corys. I believe I did not have enough beneficial bacteria or the meds wiped it out, which led to the ammonia spike.

My ammonia levels have been stable at <0.5ppm for a day now, and I have not had any losses since it has been <0.5ppm.

I agree, but I did not know higher pH makes it more dangerous. Good to know.

I was able to track down those meds last night, so some more water changes will be happening as needed. Then it is back to meds.

Thanks all for the help. I feel like I at least have a game plan. It is definitely hard to think straight when you are losing fish left and right.

That’s a LOT of fish to add to a tank, even with shifting filters from a stocked tank.  It’s good you haven’t lost any more fish since getting the ammonia down.

I used to be a hardcore skeptic about bottled bacteria but I’m coming around in light of some newer, as yet unpublished information.  I for sure would try adding some beneficial bacteria to see if it helps the tank and the fish recover faster.

Keep up with water changes and Prime as needed to control the ammonia, and get some bottled bacteria (Fritz appears to be a good option but there are others).  The bottled bacteria may be acting like probiotics and blocking attachment of some of the bad bacteria.  Too soon to say on the information we have.

[Galabar]

I'm wondering if an Aquarium Co Op video discussing moving filter media to a new tank (and preparing it for fish) might be useful.  They could mention that (a) the cycle needs a source of ammonia, (b) the filter media being moved over may not be enough to handle adding lots of fish and (c) the filter media being moved over only handled a portion of the bio-load in the previous tank (and you should not overestimate it's usefulness in the new tank).

When you say ammonia is "< 0.5 ppm," how are you measuring that?

Edited May 19, 2023 by Galabar

[Drew O]

 

On 5/19/2023 at 5:22 PM, Galabar said:

When you say ammonia is "< 0.5 ppm," how are you measuring that?

I’ve been using multi-test strips. Basically, it between the 0 and 0.5ppm color.

[Galabar]

 

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Drew O said:

 

I’ve been using multi-test strips. Basically, it between the 0 and 0.5ppm color.

There should be no noticeable ammonia.  I think anything show up on those test scripts might be a big problem.

My advice is to get the API Ammonia liquid test kit.  Use two test tubes, with one filled with distilled (or very pure tap water) and run tests on that and the tank water. Put the two test tubes up against each other.  They should look exactly the same.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by Galabar

[Drew O]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:19 PM, Galabar said:

 

There should be no noticeable ammonia.  I think anything show up on those test scripts might be a big problem.

100% agree. That’s why I’ve been doing water changes.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:18 PM, Odd Duck said:

That’s a LOT of fish to add to a tank, even with shifting filters from a stocked tank.

Now that we know the tank size, I agree. We used to say “an inch of fish per gallon” when stocking a tank. That’s a less popular phrase nowadays because everyone has different setups, filtration, plants, etc. And some people are willing to dedicate their time to extra maintenance (water changes, testing, and siphoning). As well as some creatures requiring more than a gallon because of their waste production (ie: goldfish, mystery snail, etc). Plus, fish will grow. 

In a new setup, I’d understock, way less than an inch per gal because the beneficial bacteria colony will not be prolific yet to handle a heavy bioload.

Meds will further complicate things because some meds kill or slow bacteria as well as stress the fish.

On 5/19/2023 at 7:19 PM, Galabar said:

My advice is to get the API Ammonia liquid test kit.  Use two test tubes, with one filled with distilled (or very pure tap water) and run tests on that and the tank water. Put the two test tubes up against each other.  They should look exactly the same

Possibly. Some people have chloramines in their tap water and will get an ammonia reading. If their tank is cycled, they will not get an ammonia reading because bacteria will be consuming the ammonia. Live plants also consume ammonia.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea