New betta fish acting erratic

[Tam]

All right so to know the whole history of what's going on I have this post here that talks particularly at the end about what to do with my empty 10 gallon aquarium after having my betta die in it of some unknown illness, to sum it up I ultimately decided to let it sit for several months without an occupant - it's been empty since the beginning of november and my other fish who died of potentially the same illness but was in another tank died in january, so any further contamination from illness should have been at the least 4-5 months ago. I also actually swapped the tank itself out because it had a leak and I replaced the substrate, but I reused all the same hardscape plants and filter. I also treated the entire tank with maracyn a couple months back and have been making a catappa leaf tea and using it during my weekly water changes for any antibacterial/antifungal properties etc. 

Now onto my actual current problem, I finally took the plunge figuring the tank couldn't get any safer at this point and I just got a new betta on Tuesday the 9th of May so it hasn't been a full week yet as of making this post. He's a really beautiful blue alien betta, quite small so I'm assuming young?? I was actually planning on making an intro post for him on here so I could finally have a post that wasn't asking for help with a fish problem, but here we are again. Everything seemed fine for the first 2 days, he was warming up to me, got all his color back after the stress of the drive, was becoming more interactive. Then he just seemed to get kind of manic, like he just swims and swims and swims endlessly and reckless, particularly in a tight lap at the back of the tank, back and forth over and over, pushing against the glass. I thought maybe there was something off with the water parameters and he was trying to get away from it but when I tested there was 0ppm ammonia nitrite and nitrate, ph was between 7.8 - 8 which is what it usually is, kh was on the higher end of medium, I don't remember the exact numbers on the strip because this was a couple days ago, but basically they were all exactly the same way they always are when I check. I noticed in the evening that he looked all rough and scraped up, like maybe he got stuck somewhere and had to squeeze his way out, the only thing I could think of was that he squished himself between one of my seiryuu stone and the driftwood, so I just too the big seiryuu out of the tank entirely. Then the next morning, which was yesterday, I did about a 40% water change just in case there's something I can't test for that's setting him off, I thought maybe one of the things I add for my plants or something even though I think I underdose those if anything. He was really interactive while I did the water change and very curious about what I was doing, no problem with my hand in the tank, and then afterwards he seemed to be calmer to me. I didn't put in the catappa tea right away because I wanted it to steep for longer, and I didn't put in any additives for the plants, just the water conditioner. Then in the late afternoon I put in the catappa tea along with the leaves hoping to really up the tannins, and I'm not sure if I'm reading into it or not but it seemed after that he started acting more erratic again but I don't know why that would cause it?? Yesterday evening when I got up to check on him after I had dinner he was doing those really tight fast laps in the back of the tank over and over not slowing down or stopping and he was so single-minded about it I couldn't even get his attention. His gills were working hard and as I watched him I saw him bump into a little branch from my driftwood that touched the back of the tank like 4-5 different times, he wasn't watching where he was going and I was afraid he was going to keep hurting himself, so I set up my 3 gallon temp tank and scooped him up in a cup and put him in there, thinking I just needed to get him out of the 10 gallon if there's something going on with it. Moving him immediately made him start losing his color, it seems wild type bettas show there stress in their coloring very easily. The problem is after moving him it hasn't seemed to help, he still swims around like crazy pushing against the walls and never seemed to stop much or slow down. I honestly don't know if he ever rests. I've tried to feed him a bit but he's been kind of difficult to feed from the beginning, he tends to spit things out, eat it again, spit it out, etc. I've gotten him to actually ingest a few pellets but not many. So BASICALLY, I have no idea what to do with him now??? If his behaviour is the same both in the 10 gallon and in the temporary tank should I just put him back in the 10 gallon where he'll at least be less stressed? But there is still more he can bump into in there. I have a 7.5 gallon cube I'm going to set up ASAP and put him in there but it's still going to be a few days at least. I'll do another water change on the 10 gallon just in case it was the tea somehow, I'll actually probably do another water change today and then again tomorrow, like maybe the leaves were contaminated with something?? I need advice because I'm totally at a loss for what to do! I thought that if there was some pathogen in there still lurking from the previous fish that it would take a while for it to actually affect a new fish, and then I knew what signs and behaviors to look out for but neither of my other bettas ever acted like this. I've got a couple photos of what he looks like after getting roughed up.

He seems to have lost a scale, and it looks almost like he "scratched his paint" though the silver scratches have faded completely now, his scales still look roughened up on his head. I don't know if there anything I should treat him with?? Maybe just aquarium salt? I don't want to jump the gun and just start dumping meds on this fish, and I'd really like to move him around as little as possible because it stresses him out so much which can make him more susceptible to illness too, and it's honestly alarming to see him immediately go pale and show his stress stripes, even when I'm anticipating it and know the cause. I think he's mostly got his color back as of this morning, and maybe seems a little less manic but I'm not sure. I didn't mean for this to get so long so if anyone has actually managed to read through all this I'm hoping for some advice!! Thanks in advance, at some point I'd really like to not have to post about fish problems on here 😓

Here's a picture of his other side from before whatever he did to himself in the previous photos, but I unfortunately don't have one from the same side. You can see he a had little silver scratches here too but those seem to fade pretty quickly. I've never had a wild type betta before so I don't know what to expect from them, I didn't think it would be all that different?? His name is Phthalo by the way, after the shade of blue.

Update: I just checked him again immediately after making this point and he's still breathing hard and looking pale particularly along his body, he definitely looks very stressed but I don't think he likes being in the bare and open aquarium. I really can't understand why he's so frantic! I'm afraid he's going to swim himself to death.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Tam

[Colu]

It's possible your water company add more chlorine or chloramines to your water so  you could have under dosed your water dechlorinator what I would do is add an extra air stone to increase levels of desloved oxygen holed off on the water change add a double dose of prime and a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons and monitor for the next 24hr then give use an  update @Tam

[Tam]

@Colu I'm actually on well water so I don't have any chlorine, I've just always used a conditioner as a just in case sort of thing. Right now I'm thinking of doing another water change on the 10 gallon and putting him back in because his behaviour hasn't improved in the temporary tank and it's just really stressing him out to be in a bare tank like that. My 10 gallon is heavily planted and I know aquarium salt isn't great for plants, is there an amount that would be safe that could still be helpful? And does it hurt snails?

[Colu]

1 table spoon for 10 gallons won't harm your plants it should be fine for your snails at that level maybe he's stressed that's why your seeing this behaviour if your lights are adjustable I would turn down the light intensity for a couple of days see if that helps 

 

 

[Tam]

@colu Okay, I'll add the salt and keep down the lights, I was thinking that myself, I just don't know what would've stressed him out so abruptly when nothing had changed and he'd been settling in well and I'm worried about him hurting himself. I don't really know what else to do but put him back in the 10 gallon and watch and wait. I'll post back here if anything changes.

[Stef]

Is he possibly reacting to his own reflection on the glass?

[Tam]

You nailed it @Stef - I've actually been meaning to update this post but I've been so busy. It took me a couple of days to figure this out because I've never seen a betta be so insane about glass surfing. My previous betta Jupiter did it a bit when I first got him, but never so single-mindedly that I couldn't get his attention long enough to feed him and certainly never to the extent of hurting himself. Phthalo swims himself ragged and has genuinely injured himself. I've taken out all of the hardscape and he's still managed to lose several more scales and tear his fins. I have no idea what he's even torn them on because there's just plants in there, I can only think that he's damaging them from overuse?? I don't know what to do for this fish, I feel like he's probably not going to live very long at this rate. I'm going to be keeping a low level of aquarium salt in the tank as well as the catappa leaves in the hopes it helps with healing any injuries and preventing infection/illness, but aside from that I don't know what to do that I haven't already done. I took the black background off of my tank thinking it was making the back of the glass more reflective but nothing I do seems to have any impact, I can't exactly remove the reflections, it's glass!! Getting this fish has been a total nightmare and taken all the joy out of getting a new fish, especially considered how long I built up the anticipation. I know bettas are aggressive fish but I've never seen one this insanely aggressive before, he's like a total nutcase. I've never heard of someone having a fish like this. I've had him for about a week and a half and in the last couple days he's done the glass surfing sliiiightly less, and since the daphnia I ordered finally got delivered I can actually get his attention pretty easily because he LOVES them. He's started building a bubble nest in one corner of the tank which absolutely baffles me.

I took a few videos to show the shape he's in, the first two are from 2 days ago and the 3rd is from yesterday.

You can see in the first two videos that he's completely torn his dorsal fin, and his fins in general are looking pretty tattered. In the 3rd video his dorsal fin seems to have fused or is holding together more, I haven't seen the split since the day it happened. I don't know how quickly their fins can heal, but I'm assuming it isn't actually reconnected. You can also see a brief glimpse of the beginnings of his bubble nest at the end of the 3rd video, which he's been working on since then. It's actually a relief seeing him add to it because at least for a moment he's holding more still and not hurting himself.

If anyone has any wisdom to share on what the heck to do for this fish I'd love to hear it, as it is I'm really at a loss. I've kept the lights dimmed and even completely off for a couple days but it didn't actually impact his behavior at all, and I can't just never have the light on in the tank because of the plants. As soon as I can I'm going to order some more stems plants to really pack the back and sides of the tank with to try to block some of the reflections, since he seems to do it slightly less on the left side of my tank which is the most heavily planted, but that's not actually going to make him magically stop.

[Tam]

I'm resurrecting this post in the hopes that someone will see it and respond, Phthalo became sick a little over a week ago, lethargic, clamped fins, looking pale, unresponsive to me, lying around on the bottom of his tank, not eating, slightly bloated tum, etc. so I put him through a course of maracyn which actually worked! Kind of elated because I've never had my intervention help before, but I'd say after the 5 days and the water change his behavior is completely back to normal, he's active and his colors are nice and vibrant, no clamped fins, eager and excited to eat, he's even started on a new bubble nest. I'm just wondering if I should do another 5 days of the maracyn out of an abundance of caution as today is day 7 when I should start a second round. He seems fully recovered but I'm still nervous about it. Would it be harmful in any way to just do the extra 5 days? Or should I just keep a close eye on him and give him another course if his behaviour changes again? Any insight is much appreciated!

[Colu]

On 9/28/2023 at 1:31 AM, Tam said:

I'm resurrecting this post in the hopes that someone will see it and respond, Phthalo became sick a little over a week ago, lethargic, clamped fins, looking pale, unresponsive to me, lying around on the bottom of his tank, not eating, slightly bloated tum, etc. so I put him through a course of maracyn which actually worked! Kind of elated because I've never had my intervention help before, but I'd say after the 5 days and the water change his behavior is completely back to normal, he's active and his colors are nice and vibrant, no clamped fins, eager and excited to eat, he's even started on a new bubble nest. I'm just wondering if I should do another 5 days of the maracyn out of an abundance of caution as today is day 7 when I should start a second round. He seems fully recovered but I'm still nervous about it. Would it be harmful in any way to just do the extra 5 days? Or should I just keep a close eye on him and give him another course if his behaviour changes again? Any insight is much appreciated!

From what your  describing I would holed off on another course of maracyn only repeat the treatment if he start to show similar symptoms 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Colu

[Tam]

Okay so unfortunately his symptoms came back after 3 days so I did another round of the antibiotics but he didn't really improve. After that treatment ran out I've just kept an eye on him because I don't really know what to do, but he's only gotten worse. Clamped fins again, laying around the tank, bloated as well. He seems to be struggling to swim more now than before. He's still interested in eating but because of the bloat I fasted him for a couple of days and then finally gave him a few pellets this morning because I was encouraged to see he was even still interested. He did eat, and he's sporadically interested in coming up to me but he seems worse this evening than he was this morning. I did start another round of maracyn because it worked at least at first and I thought it was better than just watching him die, today is day 4 of this latest round but he's not any better. Is there anything else I can do for him? It does seem like whatever is wrong must be bacterial, if I can get him to eat would it be good to try an antibiotic mixed in his food? I have kanaplex and metroplex on hand. I have him in his own tank rather than a quarantine tank because he's an incredibly high stress fish, even weekly tank cleanings freak him out and make him hide for a while, the only time I ever moved him to a QT he lost all his color and was swimming around frantically the whole time. I'm afraid if I stress him out further it'll just hasten whatever illness he has and kill him faster. So whatever I give him needs to be able to go in his tank, but I do have a couple nerites in there that I've had a long time and I don't know if either kanaplex or metroplex is safe for them or not. I feel bad always coming back for help here with ailing fish, I really can't seem to keep bettas healthy no matter how hard I try, it really sucks because I get so attached and really love them, I'm heartbroken every time watching them die 😢

[Colu]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:31 AM, Tam said:

Okay so unfortunately his symptoms came back after 3 days so I did another round of the antibiotics but he didn't really improve. After that treatment ran out I've just kept an eye on him because I don't really know what to do, but he's only gotten worse. Clamped fins again, laying around the tank, bloated as well. He seems to be struggling to swim more now than before. He's still interested in eating but because of the bloat I fasted him for a couple of days and then finally gave him a few pellets this morning because I was encouraged to see he was even still interested. He did eat, and he's sporadically interested in coming up to me but he seems worse this evening than he was this morning. I did start another round of maracyn because it worked at least at first and I thought it was better than just watching him die, today is day 4 of this latest round but he's not any better. Is there anything else I can do for him? It does seem like whatever is wrong must be bacterial, if I can get him to eat would it be good to try an antibiotic mixed in his food? I have kanaplex and metroplex on hand. I have him in his own tank rather than a quarantine tank because he's an incredibly high stress fish, even weekly tank cleanings freak him out and make him hide for a while, the only time I ever moved him to a QT he lost all his color and was swimming around frantically the whole time. I'm afraid if I stress him out further it'll just hasten whatever illness he has and kill him faster. So whatever I give him needs to be able to go in his tank, but I do have a couple nerites in there that I've had a long time and I don't know if either kanaplex or metroplex is safe for them or not. I feel bad always coming back for help here with ailing fish, I really can't seem to keep bettas healthy no matter how hard I try, it really sucks because I get so attached and really love them, I'm heartbroken every time watching them die 😢

Sorry to hear he not doing well What I would do is dose the tank with kanaplex and add metroplex to his food feed a small amount twice a day for upto 3 weeks metroplex won't harm your snails kanaplex can cause them to slow down 

[Tam]

Thanks @Colu - is it okay for me to just suspend the maracyn and add the kanaplex without a water change or anything? And I have some metroplex + focus mixed in with some frozen mysis shrimp that I made up in January of this year, is it okay for me to use that or should I make something up fresh since it's old? I'll try to feed him twice a day when he accepts it but I'm a little worried because of the bloat issue, whenever I feed him the bloating is immediately worse.

[Colu]

On 10/16/2023 at 5:55 PM, Tam said:

Thanks @Colu - is it okay for me to just suspend the maracyn and add the kanaplex without a water change or anything? And I have some metroplex + focus mixed in with some frozen mysis shrimp that I made up in January of this year, is it okay for me to use that or should I make something up fresh since it's old? I'll try to feed him twice a day when he accepts it but I'm a little worried because of the bloat issue, whenever I feed him the bloating is immediately worse.

No I would do a 50% water change then dose kanaplex  medicated food kept  9 months in freezer it might ok I would always air on the side of caution and make a new batch what I would do is feed him once a day with the medicated add a small amount of Epsom salt to the mix that will help with the bloating 

[Tam]

Okay, thanks. He's actually perked up a bit today and was excited for food and has been a bit more interactive and swimming around more. Makes me hopeful he's not beyond saving. I went ahead and just finished the last day of the maracyn, I can do the water change tomorrow and then add the kanaplex, or just immediately start on another round of the maracyn without waiting like I did the first time? I'm not sure what would be better. I fed him the medicated food from Jan earlier but I'll make up some fresh stuff when I offer him food tonight.

[Colu]

On 10/16/2023 at 11:29 PM, Tam said:

Okay, thanks. He's actually perked up a bit today and was excited for food and has been a bit more interactive and swimming around more. Makes me hopeful he's not beyond saving. I went ahead and just finished the last day of the maracyn, I can do the water change tomorrow and then add the kanaplex, or just immediately start on another round of the maracyn without waiting like I did the first time? I'm not sure what would be better. I fed him the medicated food from Jan earlier but I'll make up some fresh stuff when I offer him food tonight.

I would switch over to kanaplex it's a more broad spectrum antibiotic treatment 

[Tam]

Great, thanks so much I'll do that! Here's hoping he'll perk up and pull through.

[Tam]

Just a little update, Phthalo was looking really bad this morning, he spent basically the whole night floating at the surface in the corner of the tank, he was pretty pale looking and really bloated. He had some poop hanging off of him, he's clearly having trouble passing bowel movements. Last I checked him he still had a little bit hanging off but still managed to get some out so he's been a bit more active. He freaked out when I did the 50% water change on his tank like I thought he would, been keeping the tank dark to help him calm down. He was even paler after that but his coloring has come back a lot since then and now that he's not as bloated, and he's been more active swimming around the tank this afternoon and evening. I dosed the kanaplex and I'll probably be able to get him to eat the mysis shrimp + metroplex this evening, but with his bloating issues I feel worried about feeding him, I don't think I'll be able to get him to eat more than once a day since he gets so bloated after and loses interest in eating or moving. I can see him a bit in the dark of the tank from where I'm sitting right now and he keeps pecking around at random things in the tank so I think he's probably ready to eat something now. I just wonder if I should feed him still when his bloating is so bad afterwards...

[Colu]

On 10/18/2023 at 2:01 AM, Tam said:

Just a little update, Phthalo was looking really bad this morning, he spent basically the whole night floating at the surface in the corner of the tank, he was pretty pale looking and really bloated. He had some poop hanging off of him, he's clearly having trouble passing bowel movements. Last I checked him he still had a little bit hanging off but still managed to get some out so he's been a bit more active. He freaked out when I did the 50% water change on his tank like I thought he would, been keeping the tank dark to help him calm down. He was even paler after that but his coloring has come back a lot since then and now that he's not as bloated, and he's been more active swimming around the tank this afternoon and evening. I dosed the kanaplex and I'll probably be able to get him to eat the mysis shrimp + metroplex this evening, but with his bloating issues I feel worried about feeding him, I don't think I'll be able to get him to eat more than once a day since he gets so bloated after and loses interest in eating or moving. I can see him a bit in the dark of the tank from where I'm sitting right now and he keeps pecking around at random things in the tank so I think he's probably ready to eat something now. I just wonder if I should feed him still when his bloating is so bad afterwards...

I would try feeding  him once a day with a small amount of the medicated food and see how he does 

[Tam]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to get him to eat, he's barely moved around today, he just stays nestled among the plants in the same place and occasionally coming up for air. So I'm left hoping the kanaplex helps him. Not sure how long I should hold out hope for seeing improvement, with the maracyn it was after the third day that he started to improve. I don't know why it would've been effective at first and then stop working 😕

[Colu]

On 10/19/2023 at 2:01 AM, Tam said:

Unfortunately I haven't been able to get him to eat, he's barely moved around today, he just stays nestled among the plants in the same place and occasionally coming up for air. So I'm left hoping the kanaplex helps him. Not sure how long I should hold out hope for seeing improvement, with the maracyn it was after the third day that he started to improve. I don't know why it would've been effective at first and then stop working 😕

Sorry to hear he not improving Typically antibiotic will take a minimum of 5 days before you start to see any out ward signs of  improvement  fingers crossed the medication works 

[Cinnebuns]

What temp is he kept at?  

What are you feeding?

Have you tried daphnia?

Have you tried Epsom salt baths?

Sorry I did read most of the previous posts but ADHD things I may have missed something and repeating a question.  

[Tam]

He's kept at 79 at the moment, normally I feed him a mixture of daphnia and pellets, right now I'm trying with the medicated frozen mysis shrimp but haven't been able to get him to eat since day before yesterday. Phthalo is an incredibly high stress fish, neurotically so, so I really don't want to take him out of his tank for epsom salt baths.

Today was the third day of dosing the kanaplex and unfortunately he hasn't improved. He's still sporadically interested in me and sometimes acts like he wants to eat, but mostly he rests at the waterline or on the ground. I can really only get his attention when I catch him on the move, if he's already settled he doesn't pay any attention to me. The past two days he's been mostly at the water line. He's looking pale and I can faintly see his stress stripes at times. When he has pooped it's pale and stringy, and I noticed last night for the first time that he's getting tiny pinholes in his fins which I've never seen or heard of happening before?? Could this be some indication of what's going on? He's always been very hyper-active and kind of nuts so he's torn his fins a lot and scraped off scales, but he's never had holes in his fins, and he's not exactly moving around much at the moment. Because of his high-stress temperament and constant injuring of himself even with all the hardscape removed from his tank I never really thought he'd live very long, but still I've only had him since May, 5 months is still such a short time 😔

[Colu]

On 10/22/2023 at 2:18 AM, Tam said:

He's kept at 79 at the moment, normally I feed him a mixture of daphnia and pellets, right now I'm trying with the medicated frozen mysis shrimp but haven't been able to get him to eat since day before yesterday. Phthalo is an incredibly high stress fish, neurotically so, so I really don't want to take him out of his tank for epsom salt baths.

Today was the third day of dosing the kanaplex and unfortunately he hasn't improved. He's still sporadically interested in me and sometimes acts like he wants to eat, but mostly he rests at the waterline or on the ground. I can really only get his attention when I catch him on the move, if he's already settled he doesn't pay any attention to me. The past two days he's been mostly at the water line. He's looking pale and I can faintly see his stress stripes at times. When he has pooped it's pale and stringy, and I noticed last night for the first time that he's getting tiny pinholes in his fins which I've never seen or heard of happening before?? Could this be some indication of what's going on? He's always been very hyper-active and kind of nuts so he's torn his fins a lot and scraped off scales, but he's never had holes in his fins, and he's not exactly moving around much at the moment. Because of his high-stress temperament and constant injuring of himself even with all the hardscape removed from his tank I never really thought he'd live very long, but still I've only had him since May, 5 months is still such a short time 😔

Pale stingy poop can be caused by him not eating it can also be caused by parasitic infection the fact he hasn't eaten in two days is more than likely the cause of the pale stingy poop holes in the fins can be caused by your Betta flairing two much  as he's had two courses of maracyn and a course of kanaplex with not much improvement  and he's not eating what I would suggest is treating with levamisole active ingredient in expel p once a week for 3 weeks levamisole can also enhance the innate immune response as well as treating parasitic infections I think it would worthwhile just in case something else is going

[Tam]

He's had the pale and stringy poop since before he stopped eating. I did just manage to feed him a couple mysis shrimp but as soon as he eats his stomach immediately swells up. 

The first photo here is what he looks like resting at the waterline, the second photo is when I managed to get his attention and he was interested in food. I took these photos about an hour ago, so nothing in his stomach, and then the last photo is one I took about 15 minutes ago right after feeding him, you can see how bloated his stomach got immediately even after such a small amount of food. He hasn't been flaring at all so I don't think that would be the cause of the pinholes in his fins, he's mostly barely using his fins right now. I did just check the water levels again just to be sure they're still okay and everything looks fine there. I can order some Expel-P on amazon but since it's the weekend it won't get here til Tuesday. I'm willing to try whatever I can, though I don't really have much hope he's going to pull through at this point. I just don't get why the maracyn worked so amazingly well with the first dose and then never again. It seems that would mean it's bacterial, it doesn't make sense  to me 😕

[Colu]

On 10/22/2023 at 3:18 AM, Tam said:

He's had the pale and stringy poop since before he stopped eating. I did just manage to feed him a couple mysis shrimp but as soon as he eats his stomach immediately swells up. 

The first photo here is what he looks like resting at the waterline, the second photo is when I managed to get his attention and he was interested in food. I took these photos about an hour ago, so nothing in his stomach, and then the last photo is one I took about 15 minutes ago right after feeding him, you can see how bloated his stomach got immediately even after such a small amount of food. He hasn't been flaring at all so I don't think that would be the cause of the pinholes in his fins, he's mostly barely using his fins right now. I did just check the water levels again just to be sure they're still okay and everything looks fine there. I can order some Expel-P on amazon but since it's the weekend it won't get here til Tuesday. I'm willing to try whatever I can, though I don't really have much hope he's going to pull through at this point. I just don't get why the maracyn worked so amazingly well with the first dose and then never again. It seems that would mean it's bacterial, it doesn't make sense  to me 😕

It's possible you have two things going on he could have had had a bacterial infections and a parasitic infections the bacterial infections has been treated during this time the parasitic infection has weaken him so I would recommend treating with expel p 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Colu