Spring tap water messed up my tank

[Kat_Rigel]

Hey guys, fishkeeper of 10yrs or so here and I need some advice. I suspect I am stuck with two bad options. Let me explain.

I have 72gal bow front aquarium with 3 fancy ranchu goldfish. All was well until a few days ago when I did a big 50% water change. It's a little drastic but I am trying to groom these guys and there are some hormones I need to get out of the water to make sure all of them grow well. Anyway, I noticed the following day that one of the fish was acting very blah- not as animated, and also a little floaty on the back end. I checked with Aquarium Coop test strips and it showed ammonia, nitrite both at 0ppm, nitrate at about 10ppm. Thought I was overthinking it.

The next day when I came home from work, there was an explosion of green water. I said hang on, this is not consistent with my water readings. Tried the Coop test strips as well as some Tetra test strips, they still showed ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and nitrate 20. I busted out the liquid test kit and lo and behold, ammonia was 1ppm and nitrate 80ppm!!! (Nitrite still 0.) I checked my tap water and it turns out it's coming out of the tap at 80ppm nitrate and 2ppm ammonia. The ammonia in the tap is a little lower today- 0.25ppm- but nitrate is still 80ppm out of the tap. PH of tank is 8.6 and remains unaffected.

Since the fish is showing symptoms, I removed all plants and treated with aquarium salt. So, I can't use plants to decrease nitrates, and I can't do a water change with my tap water. I treated the water with some Prime, API Quick Start, Stress Zyme, and Ammo Lock. (I know the Ammo Lock is only a temporary solution.)

I'm not happy with the situation, but it is what it is. My question is this- should I do a water change with store bought water, which risks changing the pH and stressing the fish? (I bought a bunch of spring water and it does have some minerals, but my water is 300+ on both gH and kH, the spring water is about 100. PH is about the same as mine though, 8.4. Should I get a big container, place my tap water in it, and try to "off gas" the nitrates by running an airstone? I don't think this will work- otherwise the nitrate level in the tank would already be decreasing. Or do I just leave the tank as it is, since the ammonia (which is more toxic than nitrate,) has decreased? I have also considered adding Purigen but haven't used it before- it says it removes nitrates but mostly via organics. Not sure it will work.

I can see some extra slime coat on my distressed fish. So far the other two aren't showing symptoms but I certainly do not have a healthy tank right now. 

Current parameters:

80ppm nitrate

0ppm nitrite

0.25ppm ammonia

PH 8.4

KH and gH both 300+ (very hard)

Bare bottom tank/no substrate, no plants (salt in the tank)

Fluval 407 canister filter with bio media and sponges

 

All of my other tanks are fine- they are HEAVILY planted and have more sturdy fish like ricefish and platys.

 

EDIT: Forgot to post temp! 79.1*F This is per the breeder's recommendation in order to groom the fish. Tank has been set up since February, fish in since early April.

Black and orange male a little back floaty.

 

GREEEEEN! And cloudy.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Kat_Rigel
Added temp

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

All was well until a few days ago when I did a big 50% water change. It's a little drastic but I am trying to groom these guys and there are some hormones I need to get out of the water to make sure all of them grow well.

I tend to do large water changes. If the fish in the tank are used to it, they tend to do well with it.  I don't think changing that much water would cause an issue.... of course, given that the tap isn't drastically changed on you.

 

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

The next day when I came home from work, there was an explosion of green water. I said hang on, this is not consistent with my water readings. Tried the Coop test strips as well as some Tetra test strips, they still showed ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and nitrate 20. I busted out the liquid test kit and lo and behold, ammonia was 1ppm and nitrate 80ppm!!! (Nitrite still 0.) I checked my tap water and it turns out it's coming out of the tap at 80ppm nitrate and 2ppm ammonia. The ammonia in the tap is a little lower today- 0.25ppm- but nitrate is still 80ppm out of the tap. PH of tank is 8.6 and remains unaffected.

Yikes!  Definitely keep up with the testing.  I recently had a rude awakening to my strips being vastly off on some parameters.  I would recommend using them and comparing with the liquid just to ensure what you're looking at.  If you see a trend that they are off, if they weren't wet or older, then I'd try to get a replacement or something.  Depends on where you got them and all that, how long ago, but if it's recent then it might be worth a shot.  Tetra strips have usually been pretty good for me.  I am yet to ever see any ammonia strips read ammonia.

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

Fluval 407 canister filter with bio media and sponges

How is it setup? What kind of media is where?  Do you have a prefilter sponge of some kind in the tank itself?

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

Please double check this guy for ich or white spots.  I see some, it may just be a bubble on the photo or some salt in the water that hadn't dissolved yet.  I wanted to mention it just for the sake of in case you didn't see it.

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

ammonia was 1ppm and nitrate 80ppm!!!

The tank itself has very minimal planting and this means there isn't really a necessity to keep the nitrates this high.  I would opt for 50% WCs every 24-48 hours for the sake of getting that value down in the 10-20 range.  See how high it climbs in between a water change, then that may indicate a reason behind some of the issues you're seeing.
 

 

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

I checked my tap water and it turns out it's coming out of the tap at 80ppm nitrate and 2ppm ammonia. The ammonia in the tap is a little lower today- 0.25ppm- but nitrate is still 80ppm out of the tap. PH of tank is 8.6 and remains unaffected.

This leads to a few questions.... Are you on a well with farmland locally or are you on municipal water systems?  Typically it's very unlikely and against regulations to have that much nitrate in the water from the tap.  It was recommended to off-gas the tapwater for 12-24 hours and retest to see if there were any changes in nitrates.  If you have that as an issue I would suggest doing what Bentley Pascoe had mentioned on his stream this past week.  The issue he had was similar and he called the water company, explained the situation.  They give his pipes special treatment and this is due to the tanks he has at his house and the cost of the livestock.  He gives some pretty great advice and shares the story on his experience dealing with the issue.  It may be a valid option for you.

If you are on a well, I think you best option is to invest in some sort of RO unit and a method to prep water ahead of time for water changes.  This will help with all of your tanks and potentially your own health as well with the water systems in your home.

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

I have also considered adding Purigen but haven't used it before- it says it removes nitrates but mostly via organics. Not sure it will work.

It would, but it would be used up so quickly that it isn't really worth it.  I would try something like adding a moss wall, plants to use up the nitrates as a buffer.  Pathos, floating plants, etc.  I understand it's goldfish but maybe there is something they won't touch that can add a lot more plant load.  Let's see what the off-gas test says, more water tests (of the tank and the tap), and understand the situation a bit better with the above questions.

I apologize for the long post, hopefully we can help out! 

 

On 5/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

EDIT: Forgot to post temp! 79.1*F This is per the breeder's recommendation in order to groom the fish. Tank has been set up since February, fish in since early April.

If you haven't seen it, here is Cory's story of a very similar issue with his goldfish.
 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Re: the nitrate/ammonia issue

What I would do is add a pouch of nitrazorb to the hob or canister.That’s going to be the quickest solution. While that is doing its thing you can shop for hornwort (submerged plant) and pothos (emergent plant). I specified because some people put the whole pothos stems into the tank. I’ve tried both ways but found the pothos is happiest and makes a lot better roots when emergent. Better roots = better nitrate reduction.

You can recharge the nitrazorb with aquarium salt when needed but you do need some nitrates in your tank if you have plants, so I’d recommend nitrazorb on a temporary basis to get the situation under control. I have personally used nitrazorb and it worked like a dream for me.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Patrick_G]

Great looking fish! 

I’m with @Chick-In-Of-TheSea, but I was going to suggest using Seachem Purigen. It’ll suck all the nitrogen compounds out of the water. I’m guessing Nitrazorb is more or less the same type of product. In the long run I’d invest in a cheap RO system. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/9/2023 at 9:49 AM, Patrick_G said:

but I was going to suggest using Seachem Purigen. It’ll suck all the nitrogen compounds out of the water. I’m guessing Nitrazorb is more or less the same type of product

Nitrazorb is a combo of zeolite and ion-exchange resin; Purigen is moist polymer beads. Both companies protect the exact composition of their products (trade secrets) to reduce or help prevent competition in the market. Both products have the same functionality: removal of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Kat_Rigel]

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would recommend using them and comparing with the liquid just to ensure what you're looking at.  If you see a trend that they are off, if they weren't wet or older, then I'd try to get a replacement or something. 

This is a good point. Both the liquid test kit and the strips are equally old (maybe 2 years?) but not expired. I'll pick up some strips and maybe a new test kit at the pet store today (they'll be happy to see me for the third day in a row! 😅) You're right, tap should not be coming out at 80ppm nitrate.

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

How is it setup? What kind of media is where?  Do you have a prefilter sponge of some kind in the tank itself?

Good question. No prefilter sponge as these guys' poo is quite large and I want it in the canister. The canister has a sponge as the first layer (on the side, which all water comes through first.) The bottom layer is a course sponge (the Coop one, actually,) and the next layer is a little bit finer sponge. The top two layers are both bio rings (not sure the brand, I figured they all do the same thing,) and I also have some crushed coral at the top to assist with buffering pH and keeping the kH and gH good, although usually my tap is pretty hard anyway and I probably don't need it. Its another surface for bacteria, anyway.

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Please double check this guy for ich or white spots. 

I can 100% see what you're talking about in the photo, but I can assure you it's just bubbles from the nearby airstone. I took a good look today and no signs of ich. I did a slime coat scraping two days ago and didn't see anything then either, but my microscope is really awful so I don't put much stock in that.

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would opt for 50% WCs every 24-48 hours for the sake of getting that value down in the 10-20 range.

I'd like to, but not if my tap is equally high in ammonia and nitrates! Wondering if I should use the store bought spring water instead. Testing of that showed much lower nitrate and 0 ammonia, which again throws into question the accuracy of the test kit. Maybe it IS ok after all??? Who knows.

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Typically it's very unlikely and against regulations to have that much nitrate in the water from the tap. 

This is a very good point, and once again calls into question the accuracy of the test kit. I'll make some inquiries. I'm fairly confident we're not on well water, but we are relatively near farmland and can imagine we're in the same watershed.

 

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

RO unit and a method to prep water ahead of time for water changes.

I'm wary of this just because I don't have a ton of space (condo) and I"m not confident in remineralizing the water. I'm not sure what I would use. Seachem Equilibrium?

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would try something like adding a moss wall, plants to use up the nitrates as a buffer.  Pathos, floating plants, etc. 

Sorry, can't add plants at all! In fact, I removed them in order to treat the fish with aquarium salt. I've tried keeping plants in there with this level of salt previously and it just kills the plants. (My poor swordplant is hanging out in a 5 gal bucket in the yard right now!) Unless there's a common houseplant that is salt resistant, I can't use this as an option. No mangroves readily available near me. I'm actually mildly pleased that I've got green water at this point- probably a symptom of high nitrates, but also a way for them to get used up. Not sure about green water's ability to survive in saltier water.

 

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I apologize for the long post, hopefully we can help out! 

Absolutely not! I need advice! Thank you for your time, I'll follow up on the things we discussed. (Mainly the water test.)

 

On 5/9/2023 at 2:35 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

What I would do is add a pouch of nitrazorb to the hob or canister.That’s going to be the quickest solution. While that is doing its thing you can shop for hornwort (submerged plant) and pothos (emergent plant).

Nitrazorb is an option but unfortunately plants aren't. See salt treatment

 

On 5/9/2023 at 6:49 AM, Patrick_G said:

I was going to suggest using Seachem Purigen.

That's what I picked up yesterday but then I balked because I was reading that you can't use it with amine based stress coats, and sure enough, I had just added some when I was freaking out. Tons of mixed information out there. Most sources say you can use both as long as you don't recharge the Purigen, some sources have a "friend of a friend" who has some horror story about using both and killing their fish. So I'm hesitant, but if anyone else knows better than me, please let me know! Ideally I'd do a big water change to minimize any Stress Coat remaining, but... yeah, well, here we are!

 

 

As far as updates, I believe the floating has gotten a tad worse, and I think a second fish is also demonstrating back end floating. For what it's worth, I believe I've caught this early, but I don't like seeing things get worse. That said, you know how we are as fishkeepoers- "Oh god, is that white spot ich? Is he floating weird? Is he being lethargic? Do I see some fungus there?!" I might be overanalyzing. They are all still moving around and active, and I'll feed them today (minimally in case the nitrates really are an issue.) However, I think I'm going to up the salt, since goldfish can do well with high amounts of salt.

Interesting side note, I recently picked up a highly recommended book from my local library, "Fancy Goldfish: A Compelte Guide to their Care and Collecting" by Johnson and Hess. According to folks from the Goldfish Council, this is the foremost book on goldfish care in the past 20 years. It says back end floating is usually due to high nitrates and a resulting bacterial infection. That's consistent with what I'm seeing, and suggests the nitrates are indeed high. If it is an infection, the salt should help take care of it.

Will upload pics shortly.

Tank is SO green 😶

[Kat_Rigel]

Also, they ate with GUSTO this morning so that's at least a good sign.

[Guppysnail]

I have spring tap water issues with high nitrate and some ammonia also. I pretreat the water in a bucket using a dechlorinator that deals with ammonia like AmQuel, Fritz or prime to dissociate the ammonia. It does not return to ammonia but breaks into different chemicals and gasses off. 
For the nitrate it’s harder. Purigen is simple to use I sometimes run a hob with either purigen or nitrazorb in my pretreat bucket. The green water though not harmful I don’t like the look of and use AAAgreen killing machine UV light for. 
For plants emergent lucky bamboo can withstand salt where pothos cannot. 
Here are some good reads I was able to put into use to overcome my issue s
 

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:05 AM, Kat_Rigel said:

I'll pick up some strips and maybe a new test kit at the pet store today (they'll be happy to see me for the third day in a row! 😅)

Take a bag of tap and tank water and ask if they can test it for you too!

[Kat_Rigel]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:55 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Take a bag of tap and tank water and ask if they can test it for you too!

Oh DUH of course! Thank you!

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:05 AM, Kat_Rigel said:

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would try something like adding a moss wall, plants to use up the nitrates as a buffer.  Pathos, floating plants, etc. 

Sorry, can't add plants at all! In fact, I removed them in order to treat the fish with aquarium salt. I've tried keeping plants in there with this level of salt previously and it just kills the plants. (My poor swordplant is hanging out in a 5 gal bucket in the yard right now!) Unless there's a common houseplant that is salt resistant, I can't use this as an option. No mangroves readily available near me. I'm actually mildly pleased that I've got green water at this point- probably a symptom of high nitrates, but also a way for them to get used up. Not sure about green water's ability to survive in saltier water.

Anubias is probably good. Very very slow growing. I know the common knowledge is to avoid salt with plants. Some plants like hairgrass, val, etc. Might be extremely sensitive to salt. Others like anubias, moss, mangrove, some ferns, they don't really care too much. Keep in mind that the salt is short term and not permanent (in all hopes).  Lily or pathos, whatever plant you wish to use can be added to a conditioning chamber in a refugium style setup as well as the top of the tank. That would give you the opportunity to remove the nitrates via plants, off gas it via air, as well as remove those plants easily if you do ever need to dump salt in.

In my case, 99.99999% of the time. I dump the salt in despite any plants in the tank. I have lost some plants, but the majority of them can tolerate salt for a few days.

On 5/9/2023 at 8:05 AM, Kat_Rigel said:

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

RO unit and a method to prep water ahead of time for water changes.

I'm wary of this just because I don't have a ton of space (condo) and I"m not confident in remineralizing the water. I'm not sure what I would use. Seachem Equilibrium?

Depends on what you're keeping. But yes, equilibrium and crushed coras as well as premixed products are available. A lot of these are used in shrimp tanks.

You mentioned CC in the filter, you could also add this to media bags and stack it behind some of your plants or against the back glass where the filter intakes water.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:05 AM, Kat_Rigel said:

On 5/9/2023 at 1:00 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would opt for 50% WCs every 24-48 hours for the sake of getting that value down in the 10-20 range.

I'd like to, but not if my tap is equally high in ammonia and nitrates! Wondering if I should use the store bought spring water instead. Testing of that showed much lower nitrate and 0 ammonia, which again throws into question the accuracy of the test kit. Maybe it IS ok after all??? Who knows.

Yeah, further research is definitely required. I know sometimes you may test for one item in your water, see a test, but what you're actually seeing the results for isn't that specific entity.

Ammonia in the water could be an indicator for chloramines in the water which would result in needing to double dose prime. I am uncertain what nitrates mean in the water. My brief research showed well water, farmland, and similar type of groundwater contamination. Pesticides even would be a culprit I imagine.

That is why I highly encourage the discussion with the water company. Once they understand you have a plethora of tanks and potentially even have a sort of "work from home" issue where you might sell plants or livestock from your tanks it becomes an issue on their side when they treat the tap water system.  There are alternatives for treatment they can use which will minimize the impact on your fish.  I will try to locate that Livestream, but for now.... Water prep, test, plants, and research is what seems to be the path of some success for you.

It's wonderful to hear the fish perked up thanks to the salt! You can add a double dose of prime (or other conditioner) every 24 hours to keep most of the issues you're seeing as controlled as possible right now as well.

[Kat_Rigel]

Whee, ok, now that I'm out of "urgent fish-saving mode," I can give everyone an update. 

My tank is back to 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, and 20ppm nitrate. I am very happy about this- looks like the filter was finally able to process the excess. I tested my tap last night and it was back down to 0ppm ammonia and nitrate as well, which means I can finally do normal water changes with my tap water like I usually do. The fish are very hungry (I have been feeding sparingly and they have been begging for food.) I'm not going to go full force feeding until about a week from now, since I do t want to risk fouling the water.

I am quite sure that my tap was high in nitrate. I contacted the water company and asked if they added anything (email contact form, no phone number available.) Their response was to send someone to my house and check water quality. I received this notice on my door: 

It's hard to read, but it says, "We tested your water and found the Chlorine level @ 0.63 ppm & the monochloramine was 0.49. The water is normal and safe to drink. Please call for another appointment." So it doesn't directly answer my question- did you add any additives recently? But it was a very fast response (only 2 hours!) I'll give them a phone call when I get a chance (number was provided on the note.)

I still have very green water, which is ok and probably one of the reasons nitrates went down so quickly, but the fish are active and acting normal again. I'm still seeing a little back end floating which makes me very nervous, but I'm optimistic the salt treatment will work. I was using 1tbs per 5gal as recommended on the package, but I think I will up it to the level 2 recommendation as shown on the Co-op site.

[nabokovfan87]

Very good to see the changes towards a positive change.  🙂

Here is the related livestream and it should start at the appropriate time (44:18):