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What’s wrong with my betta? Again


sharkboxed
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Right, so when I thought life was looking up, I got right back down to rock bottom

I got a new betta a month ago, and he’s having the exact same thing as my betta Shark had when he was dying.

He’s bloated, possibly pineconing a little on only his underside, and has some white patch that looks like tiny raised scales on his anus. All this is what Shark had days before his passing. 

Important info is that I missed a water change and did it today (my schedule is every Thursday or Friday), but I didn’t think it was much of an issue as I’d tested the water and everything was fine, additionally I had added floaters to help out.

I started off with a diet of daphnia and bloodworms, but each day I grew more fatigued and hes been eating some flakes and betta pellets. My fish seem to prefer the flakes and pellets for some reason.

During the water change in the 30L, when I added the new water dechlorinated with aquasafe, he started freaking out and twitching, I thought it was temperature shock or something so I stopped for a while and retested the temperature, and it was about the same just the new water was slightly warmer. This has never happened in any other tank with any other fish before, only tank and fish this has occurred with was in that 30L with a betta.
When he relaxed that’s when I examined him and saw that bloat I thought was just from feeding too much. The last few days he’s ate 4 - 6 pellets each day, including today.

I moved him to the 54L today as the 30L (filled to about over half) was the same one Shark passed in and I didn’t want to risk that it was Shark’s mystery killer in the filter again. As I was acclimating him he got more and more stressed , losing colors and hyperventilating so I had to release him into the tank before the time was done (15 minutes, released him with 4 minutes left) and his colors returned.

I’ll be honest here, I’m about ready to give up on betta fish. All my platy are fine, and my neons were fine (and still are probably, had to rehome them), my shrimp are fine, it’s always been the bettas that get sick. And the one time the 2 platy I had died it was cuz one of my bettas infected them with camallanus and they passed from the medicine I had to administer.

if anyone has any info, please let me know. I rushed out of the house to try to find medicine for him so I don’t have any photos of him currently, but this was him a bit ago.

I had such wonderful help last time, so maybe you could help again @Odd Duck@Colu? Thank you in advance!!

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edit: upon further inspection only the white part on his anus looks to be "pineconing", although he is bloated.

Edited by sharkboxed
added texture of underside
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I’m not quite sure what to think of those scales around his vent.  They do look weird, but very different to me than the scales that almost looked like they had a hole in their centers like the abnormal scales were on Shark.  The stress during water change makes me wonder if there was extra chlorine/chloramine in the tap water like some municipalities do this time of year to “clean out the pipes” by doing essentially a shock dose of chemicals.  Doing a higher than normal dose of Prime or whatever dechlorinator you use could be all you need to do to combat that issue.

I’m not sure if that’s got anything to do with those unusual looking scales and I don’t have any bright ideas on if those scales are an issue or not.  Hopefully @Colu will have some other ideas on treatment.

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Am not sure what the overall cause of the scales around the vent is they don't look right The bloating could be caused by over eating or possibly constipation  have you notice him pass anything recently have you tried fasting him for a couple of days to see if the bloating goes down if he's not been passing anything he could be constipated in that case I would do Epsom salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days as Epsom salt acts as a muscle relaxant to help with  constipation  I would add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will add essential electrolytes and aid Gill function  the lack of energy and some of the behaviour your seeing could be diet related how often are you feeding and how much @sharkboxed

Edited by Colu
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IMG_7258.jpeg.ee9997833f0f838564a33c3789101bdb.jpegIMG_7259.jpeg.dde2512835a4adb81c9ebe0a60babda6.jpegIMG_7260.jpeg.53b5b0799ef615b5f8da49cc49903900.jpeg
These are the recent photos, I circled the white area with the raised scales, he looks a bit less bloated now though. This was the best I could do cuz my camera isn’t all that great and he just doesn’t stop moving for some reason. @Odd Duck @Colu now it looks more bulged out than pineconed though, but maybe that’s just cuz of the lighting. In the second image you can see the bloat.

And to answer your question as I was acclimating him into the 54L with a clear container I saw a piece of feces that wasn’t there before while he was stressing out, and he even tried to eat it but spit it out. It looked normal just not long at all.

As for the diet, the first few weeks of having him I fed him frozen thawed daphnia and bloodworms, but then switched to TetraMin flakes back and forth till it stuck for a couple of days. I decided that flakes might be too much just for him so I switched him over to betta pellets also my tetra, and fed 4 - 6 pellets once per day. And I started that about 2 or 3 days ago. Last time I fed him was today, I think I fed him 4 pellets. This was before I noticed the ridiculous bloat he’d gotten with the white part.

And I actually have a question about that Epsom salt thing, every time I’ve tried Epsom salt treatments it’s gone so horribly wrong or just hasn’t worked at all that I need to know if the types of salt I use are safe.

IMG_7262.jpeg.824f50f368cc723a405abc910c745ac0.jpegIMG_7263.jpeg.bfe08b8e2d8a5b18151c5b2bcce90307.jpegIMG_7264.jpeg.68deffc4ae588f102c1259cb2c6a087c.jpeg

This is how the Epsom salt looks like.

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This is the aquarium salt I use.

Each time I’ve used the Epsom salt it either got worse or just didn’t help at all. When I used it on my first betta with Dropsy from possible constipation (I left for a week and left him with an autofeeder that dispensed way too many pellets despise the modifications I did to prevent it, he was already dealing with other previous issues so the constipation didn’t help) I put him in the salt bath and he seemed better for a bit, but then it just got worse and the baths seemed to just drain him of energy, until he just passed right in front of my eyes.

Then it was my female betta that had more severe Dropsy which I still have no clue how she got, her case is more unique as she jumped out of the tank while waiting for her hospital tank to heat up, but I had put Epsom salt in that 30L tank but she was dead the next day.

When I used the aquarium salt on my tanks all it seemed to do was harm my snail to the point he’s slow now and skittish, while the fish just either started acting weirdly or didn’t seem to be affected.

Do you guys think I’ve just had bad luck with the Epsom salt or is it the wrong type? 
 

And about that chlorine, I overdo the dechlorinator actually, I just kinda squirt it in there till the water is tinted blue (the liquid is turquoise), and to get rid of any residing chlorine I dumped the water using the same container I use to acclimate onto my sponge filter to make it air out without disturbing the water current too much. I do this with every tank I have and my platy seem to actually enjoy it and chase the slight water current, my other betta was indifferent and kinda just stares (he’s like a grandpa with dementia and slightly blind, with the brain that only works once per year), and Zuko (this betta) used to be curious and not care about it, so him twitching like that and stressing was completely new. Especially as I was acclimating him to the 54L I saw all his color fade, his usually black eyes turned light blue and his black face markings just vanished leaving only red, and went back to normal when I released him early. This is really bizarre I’ll be honest.

Edited by sharkboxed
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As long as your using plain unscented Epsom your fine I only use Epsom salt in baths as it raise your GH when added to your tank  aquarium salt fine to use some fish can be more sensitive to salt bettas should be fine with a higher level of salt for upto 2 weeks days as long as you don't go over 1 table spoon for 1 gallon am not familiar with that brand as it says it's a medication that treats fungal and parasites is there just salt in that product also some other active ingredient  snails can be sensitive to salt nerites are fine with aquarium some other snails such as mystery snails can be sensitive to salt @sharkboxed

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@Colu I think it’s unscented, it doesn’t say it is on the packaging though. It kinda smells like detergent though so I have no idea.

New info though, checked on him this morning, he’s starting to pinecone and his bloat is worse, along with that he’s slower and he’s visibly lost color as his eye is getting blue again and his black markings have faded. One side of his stomach is bigger than the other.
I had an idea yesterday, I’m thawing daphnia for my other fish and was thinking of soaking it after feeding the others in either sera baktopur (Active ingredient: 209.7 mg acriflavinium chloride, 4.95 mg methylthioninium chloride in 100 ml) in case it’s bacterial, or Sera Nematol Active ingredient: 320 mg emamectin benzoate in 100 ml) in case it’s the same parasites  Shark had prior. 
Since he’s already bloated I’ll only feed one or two pieces of daphnia but at least he’d be getting the medicine internally. Which would be a safe bet? @Odd Duck

And should I still do the Epsom salt bath?
 

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The Epsom salt you have is fine I wouldn't add sera bactopur to food its more affect at treating fungal infections and some mild external bacterial infections As he's starting to pinecone I would start feeding metroplex in food feeding feeding a small amount twice a day for upto 3 weeks  and add some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons the salt will help reduce the fluid buildup and dose the tank with kanaplex is a good antibiotic for treating kidney infection or internal bacterial infections that can cause pineconing @sharkboxed

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@Colu I unfortunately don't have metroplex anywhere here in norway unless it's online, are there any similar products by sera or esha? Also, I moved him into the 54L yesterday in case it was the filter or tank's fault in the 30L, should I move him back there for treatment? As I have a mystery snail and an oto in the 54L already I don't want to harm them or the plants, but since he's probably already stressed from being sick moving him again could potentially stress him out more. 
And should I still do the epsom salt baths? 

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I would move him back as your using salt and Otto's and mystery snails can be sensitive to salt Sera does another product with a similar name Sera baktopur direct tablets active ingredient is nifurpirinol is a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment if you get can get holed of this use this instead of kanaplex if you can get metronidazole that the active ingredient in metroplex I would  do the course of medicated food I recommend here's a food recipe you can use with metronidazole 

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@Colu Just went to the pet store, they didn’t have sera direct, only the normal baktopur. I could only find the direct online… I’m ordering it for future occasions but for now, what can I do? Any other medicines I could try? I found metronidazole pills at my pharmacy, but that’s probably not the same. Maybe some esha products that can help?

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On 5/4/2023 at 3:27 PM, sharkboxed said:

@Colu Just went to the pet store, they didn’t have sera direct, only the normal baktopur. I could only find the direct online… I’m ordering it for future occasions but for now, what can I do? Any other medicines I could try? I found metronidazole pills at my pharmacy, but that’s probably not the same. Maybe some esha products that can help?

Metronidazole pills are the same it's used to people as well as fish how many mg of metronidazole are in the tablet's 

Edited by Colu
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@Colu the pills are 500mg, unfortunately I think they’re on prescription only.. I’ll still try though, is 500mg too much?

edit: I found 200mg and 400mg, but every sort is prescription only. What now?

Edited by sharkboxed
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I would start treating with salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons now that will help reduce the fluid buildup and start treating with Sera baktopur direct tablets when they arrive Esha doesn't really do a product that treats internal bacterial infections they only treat mild external bacterial infections or fungal infections there's a slim possiblity that the pineconing is caused by internal parasites so you could try treating with Esha ndx active ingredient is levamisole once a week for 4 weeks see if that helps @sharkboxed

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@Colu just ordered medicine, no idea when it will be arriving but until then, I’ve had the 3 tbs of aquarium salt for my 30L that was filled up to 6 gal.

I‘m leaving until Sunday tomorrow though, did I need to do maintenance like a water change or something each day or am I free to go? Every other week I go visit my mother for the weekend so on every other saturday it’s fasting day, unfortunate it’s this week though with Zuko’s problem..

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What you can do is add many water changes as you like as long as you remember to put back in the amount of salt you take out so if you do a 2 gallon water change add 1 table spoon of salt back in I would water change as needed if your not seeing any ammonia or nitrite @sharkboxed

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On 5/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, sharkboxed said:

@Colu I unfortunately don't have metroplex anywhere here in norway unless it's online

I have heard of people using ebay to acquire some meds in the EU.  I did find a list of comparible meds in the EU.  Let me see if I can find it again.... (nope)

Esha is the common brand available.  There should be something similar like gdex or -ndx that works like metroplex.  What you would do is look up the MSDS sheets which list out the ingredients.

https://eshalabs.com/esha-gdex/
https://eshalabs.com/esha-ndx/

On 5/3/2023 at 12:33 PM, sharkboxed said:

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Active substances by type and quantity:
100 g contain : 580.0 mg sodium perborate-3-hydrate
58.0 mg magnesium peroxide
Other ingredients:
Sodium chloride, sodium dihydrogen phosphate, potassium chloride

 

On 5/3/2023 at 12:33 PM, sharkboxed said:

IMG_7262.jpeg.824f50f368cc723a405abc910c745ac0.jpegIMG_7263.jpeg.bfe08b8e2d8a5b18151c5b2bcce90307.jpeg

According to the bag this is the correct stuff for aquarium use.  If you are experiencing issues then I would avoid use and try a different brand.  If there is any chemical odor or fragrance avoid it.  That bag is the correct one though.

 

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On 5/5/2023 at 8:44 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Esha is the common brand available.  There should be something similar like gdex or -ndx that works like metroplex.  What you would do is look up the MSDS sheets which list out the ingredients.

Esha gdex has praziquantel and Esha ndx has levamisole  they don't do an alternative product that treats anaerobic bacterial infections like metronidazole does meds are a bit tricky you can order off eBay it does take about 3-4 weeks to get here from the USA that's what I do so I always have some meds readily available such as kanaplex metroplex maracyn2 

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@Colu I tried finding Kanaplex, metroplex and maracyn2 but it’s either 65$ (which I don’t have) or there’s no shipping to here.

Unfortunately he passed away today though, according to my dad he was really lethargic while I was gone and only hiding, and came out to die just so I could see him dead when I came home (thanks Zuko appreciate it).

I did want to kinda shift the attention to my other giant betta who’s fine, he’s a slow dude and acts like a blind, demented old man and wether or not that’s health related beats me, hopefully it’s just his personality though. He developed this thing on his side and I’m not sure if that’s a tumor or broken scale, can you tell?

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