Little Tank / Big Issue

[Rozmere]

Hopefully, some of you can put your experience to work and help me figure out what to do.

I'll start off by giving you some quick background bullet points:

• I've kept freshwater aquariums/fish for most of my life, I'm 50.
• I haven't had an aquarium set-up in about 5 years and have decided to get back into it.
• I have a 10-gallon that I'm trying to get ready for fish, this is currently all I have room for.
• I live in a very small town without a fish store and I make very little money so I look for the cheapest and easiest solutions.
• I've never had to worry too much about water parameters in the past but they have appearently changed something with my water supply in the last 5 years.

Plans:

• Plants: Anubias Nana, Dwarf Sagittaria, Water Wisteria
• Fish: Hoping to have Longfin Leopard Danios, A Chinese Hillstream Loach, and/or maybe Khuli Loaches, and/or some sort of shrimp.

My set-up so far:

• Re-set-up on March 29, 2023
• Standard 10-gallon tank with hinged glass lid
• HOB filter with an aquarium sponge attached to intake (have not modified this filter beyond that yet)
• Heater (tank tends to stay at around 78F)
• LED "grow" light mounted about 6-8" above tank (claims to be 2400 lumens, 6500K, and use 32 watts of power)
• 8.8 lbs. of Fluval Bio-Stratum plant substrate
• 2 Anubias Nana
• April 4, 2023 Added: A home-made air-powered submersed bubble filter containing a mixture of ceramic rings and crushed oyster shells (you'll understand why in my tests below), and an air pump (obviously to power the filter)

Parameters and chemicals (I'm using API 5-in-1 test strips and API ammonia test strips):

• Baseline: Water straight from tap (no conditioner): Ammonia=~3, Nitrates=0, Nitrites= 0, GH=0, KH=0, PH=~6
• Water from tap (after API water conditioner): Ammonia=0, Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=0, KH=0, PH=6.5-7
• April 5, 2023 Water in aquarium: Ammonia=0, Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=30, KH=0, PH=7
• April 5, 2023 Added: 1ml Fluval Gro+, 40 drops of Fritz Fishless Fuel. Ammonia tested at ~6. Added: 1/2 cup of Fritz Zyme 7 (this is the first time I've ever tried these types of products for fishless cycling)
• April 6, 2023: Ammonia=3-6(?), Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=60, KH=0, PH=6.5
• April 7, 2023 morning: Ammonia=3-6(?), Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=60, KH=20-40(?), PH=6.5-7. Night: Ammonia=~4, Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=120, KH=60, PH=6.5. Now that my KH finally seemed to be rising and out of worry that the low KH may have killed any bacteria I re-dosed 1/2 cup of Fritz Zyme 7.
• April 8, 2023: Ammonia=3-4(?), Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=60, KH=40, PH=7

Summary of the problem:

So as you can see my GH and especially my KH are very low and this won't do for what I'm wanting in this tank. I added the crushed oyster shells to try to raise these parameters and buffer the PH but as I said I've never had to worry about parameters much in the past so I'm completely lost on if this will work and how long it will take.
Also, if I finally get the GH and KH to where I want them are they just going to crash the first time I do a water change?

Let me know your thoughts and suggestions, you guys are great!
 

[Lennie]

Hey there @Rozmere,

Here are some thoughts of mine after reading your thread.

Firstly I did not understand how your 3ppm ammonia disappears and reads 0 after you are using a water conditioner. This seems interesting.

Generally to cycle a tank, the highest amount recommended I’ve seen  is 2ppm ammonia. I see that yours reach even around 6 ppm. That is actually a lot. Have you ever considered trying to contact your water company and tell them you have ammonia in your water? It is not something you should be reading, especially this high really.

Also it seems like, even when you add fritz, you are not reading any nitrite or nitrate. For nitrate it is normal as bacteria that turns nitrite to nitrate builds more slower than ammonia to nitrite. However again your ammonia levels drop, but there is no nitrite as an end result. That is again sounding weird.

Your ammonia levels being 3x the amount recommended for fishless cycling might be having an impact on cycling struggle you are having I bet. 
is there a way for you to keep your max ammonia as 2ppm as your starting point for a fishless cycle?

If I were you, I would keep an extra sponge filter in my tank, and before every water change, I would take that sponge filter and run it in the bucket over night to eliminate potential ammonia and nitrite and aerate the water. Your water ph is probably 7, and it reaches that point once aerated. It can be good for you to try testing it by aerating your water in a bucket over night to see what ph you are reading next day. 
 

10g is pretty small in size, and if you plan to keep shrimp, it means your water changes will be minimal anyway. So If I were you, I would personally use Equilibrium and Alkaline buffer. They would go forever for a 10g setup and you will have a direct control over the gh and kh you have and you won’t need yo worry about constantly changing water parameters. I have a really high kh myself but 0 gh so I dose equilibrium. You should just dose the tank the amount that you want to reach, and next, you only dose the amount of new water. Not for topping of the water, just based on the water change you are making.

So yea, in a small tank, it is harder to have a control over your parameters. If I were you, I would contact my water company first and try to find a way to cycle with 2ppm ammonia at max. If you can potentially reach some cycled media you trust It can be great to introduce to your hob as well.

Btw, as an extra opinion, as a years of fishkeeper you probably know that, danios are crazy active and leopards reach considerably a good size. And I am not sure how safe shrimp would be with leopard danios in a 10g. If I were you, I would personally consider celestial pearl danios. Do you like cpd? This might give your shrimp a better chance of survival I believe due to their smaller size and smaller mouth

 

 

 

 

Also I have never used crushed oyster shells, but the thing is, for healthy shrimp molting, you will need calcium magnesium and trace elements in the water. So I personally believe dosing something that increases gh and kh manually is better than adding something to increase some readings of these and subject to change with every water change as you mentioned

Edited April 9, 2023 by Lennie

[Rozmere]

Hey Lennie! I agree with you 100%, isn't it weird that the parimeters changed like that after the water conditioner? I thought so too! I wonder if something is wrong with my test strips, but since they are widely used I assume they are fairly well perfected by now? Maybe my eyes are just crap these days?! :( Anyway, I'll read your comment again once I get home and have a better reply, THANK YOU for helping!

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/8/2023 at 3:14 PM, Rozmere said:

HOB filter with an aquarium sponge attached to intake (have not modified this filter beyond that yet)

What is in the filter itself?  Cartridge?  Please help me to understand your media selection in the filter.  If you are running just the cartridge, that can cause a bit of an unstable system.

On 4/8/2023 at 3:14 PM, Rozmere said:

April 5, 2023 Added: 1ml Fluval Gro+, 40 drops of Fritz Fishless Fuel. Ammonia tested at ~6.

I think this is a large amount of ammonia.  I would not go above 1-2 ppm
 

On 4/8/2023 at 3:14 PM, Rozmere said:

April 7, 2023 morning: Ammonia=3-6(?), Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=60, KH=20-40(?), PH=6.5-7. Night: Ammonia=~4, Nitrates=0, Nitrites=0, GH=120, KH=60, PH=6.5. Now that my KH finally seemed to be rising and out of worry that the low KH may have killed any bacteria I re-dosed 1/2 cup of Fritz Zyme 7.

Yeah, it's good to see the KH jump here.  I am curious if you have ever tested your tap water?  What I normally start with is an off-gas test.  Test directly from the tap for anything you can, then use an airstone for 24 hours and repeat the test.  Then you'd compare that to the aquarium.  (3 total tests)

The goal being that the second test is indicative of what changes in your water during your maintenance. 

 

On 4/8/2023 at 3:14 PM, Rozmere said:

So as you can see my GH and especially my KH are very low and this won't do for what I'm wanting in this tank. I added the crushed oyster shells to try to raise these parameters and buffer the PH but as I said I've never had to worry about parameters much in the past so I'm completely lost on if this will work and how long it will take.
Also, if I finally get the GH and KH to where I want them are they just going to crash the first time I do a water change?

I would recommend crushed coral and Seiryu stone.  Those can be done in addition to what you're already doing in the tank with the shells.  These would be lower flow, passive buffers, and give you some longer term stability.  If your local store doesn't have seiryu stone then you can look at something like seachem equilibrium to buffer the GH of your water as you need to.  The coral (or aragonite) would be used essentially by the handful until you have the value you wish for your aquarium.  It would be similar as to what you've seen above where the buffer might take 2-5 weeks to show full affect.  Doing normal water maintenance as well, whatever your expected schedule will be, will also help to give clarity on the long term parameters of the tank.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:13 PM, Lennie said:

10g is pretty small in size, and if you plan to keep shrimp, it means your water changes will be minimal anyway. So If I were you, I would personally use Equilibrium and Alkaline buffer. They would go forever for a 10g setup and you will have a direct control over the gh and kh you have and you won’t need yo worry about constantly changing water parameters. I have a really high kh myself but 0 gh so I dose equilibrium. You should just dose the tank the amount that you want to reach, and next, you only dose the amount of new water. Not for topping of the water, just based on the water change you are making.

If you're going shrimp, they have buffers designed for the species you wish to keep.  If it's caridina vs. neocaridina you would have a different buffer that you can find off the shelf.  There are a variety of brands available, one of them is salty shrimp. 

This would be easy to follow, give you the needs you want, and make it really, really easy to manage.  🙂

When it comes to shrimp, the parameters you have might be great for caridina species without anything more than a specific substrate.
 

 

[Rozmere]

After, water changes, getting a different brand of test strips, etc. I've decided I need to turn to Seachem to get this water issue on the lock-down before going any further. Unfortunately, the products I ordered will take over a week to get to me so that puts me ever further behind. I'll be more informative later. thanks for the help so far.

[Mmiller2001]

Have a water softener by any chance?

[Rozmere]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:03 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Have a water softener by any chance?

No, unfortunately, my municipal water supply is very soft. My PH stays at about 6.5-7 no matter what I do but the KH doesn't raise above 40PPM.

I do have crushed oyster shells in my bubbler filter, I don't have a nearby source for crushed coral and can't afford to order any right now, I decided to spend my money on the Seachem buffers to try to get this situation locked down as soon as I can.

The irritating thing is that I now have two test strip types and they give me somewhat different readings. As of last water change (today) my readings are:

On API test strip: Nitrate=0, Nitrite=.5, GH=60, KH=40, PH=6.5

On Tetra test strip: Nitrate=10(ish), Nitrite=.5, GH=75, KH=40, PH=7

I only have an API strip for ammonia and it reads about 3 before the water change (I had already done a few water changes to bring it down from higher levels), and about 1 after today's water change.

I tested my water straight from the tap a few more times and the ammonia reads 0 so I'm not sure why my initial reading was around 3, but as previously stated my eyes aren't the greatest and that specific strip seems hard to decipher (as far as I'm concerned). When I can afford it I'll buy Aquarium Co-Op's test strips.

I'd love to hear Cory's take on all of this. I say this because I know he has a location that has really soft water too.

I might be getting my Seachem Alkaline Buffer sooner than I expected (today in fact) so we'll see if it helps. I won't get my Equilibrium for a while for some reason. I've never had to worry about my water parameters this much in the past and I had happy healthy tanks, so I have no experience with these new products.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Rozmere

[Mmiller2001]

All hobby level test kits are terrible, and strips take terrible a notch further. I wouldn't put too much stock into them. 

I would stop using the crush coral and I personally don't like Equilibrium, but as you have chosen to use it, there's zero need for crush coral. I would ignore KH and keep it 0 or just what the tap water offers. 

Just select live stock that does well in low TDS water. Your choices seem good, but I'm not up to par on Hillstreams. 

I would make an extra effort to increase the initial planting of the tank. Don't skimp on plants. Plant the maximum amount possible. 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Mmiller2001

[Rozmere]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:24 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

All hobby level test kits are terrible, and strips take terrible a notch further. I wouldn't put too much stock into them. 

I would stop using the crush coral and I personally don't like Equilibrium, but as you have chosen to use it, there's zero need for crush coral. I would ignore KH and keep it 0 or just what the tap water offers. 

Just select live stock that does well in low TDS water. Your choices seem good, but I'm not up to par on Hillstreams. 

I would make an extra effort to increase the initial planting of the tank. Don't skimp on plants. Plant the maximum amount possible. 

 

Yes, I have planted Dwarf Sagittaria and anchored two Anubias Nana to large black river pebbles. The problem with not using a product like Equilibrium is that my water has no minerals or nutrients for plants (or fish) which is I guess evident in the GH and KH levels, some of that is corrected with the substrate, oyster shells (very slowly) and the fertilizer for the plants but I also know (or at least I've come to believe over the years) that the nitrifying bacteria won't do well in such a low KH/low GH environment, so I'm trying to get that fixed so my cycle will actually show some progress. I'm always happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, however.

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:13 PM, Rozmere said:

Yes, I have planted Dwarf Sagittaria and anchored two Anubias Nana to large black river pebbles. The problem with not using a product like Equilibrium is that my water has no minerals or nutrients for plants (or fish) which is I guess evident in the GH and KH levels, some of that is corrected with the substrate, oyster shells (very slowly) and the fertilizer for the plants but I also know (or at least I've come to believe over the years) that the nitrifying bacteria won't do well in such a low KH/low GH environment, so I'm trying to get that fixed so my cycle will actually show some progress. I'm always happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, however.

Studies have proven nitrification continues at very low pH ranges. 

Crushed coral is only adding Ca and carbonates, it doesn't add magnesium. GH should be comprised of both.

I like to aim for 70% planted surface area. It just makes things so much easier.

Equilibrium will add Ca, Mg, Fe and Potassium. By using both Equilibrium and Crushed Coral, you will accumulate extra Ca. My choice would be to pick one or the other. If you only used CC, adding Epsons Salt for a Mg source is needed.

 

 

[Rozmere]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Studies have proven nitrification continues at very low pH ranges. 

Crushed coral is only adding Ca and carbonates, it doesn't add magnesium. GH should be comprised of both.

I like to aim for 70% planted surface area. It just makes things so much easier.

Equilibrium will add Ca, Mg, Fe and Potassium. By using both Equilibrium and Crushed Coral, you will accumulate extra Ca. My choice would be to pick one or the other. If you only used CC, adding Epsons Salt for a Mg source is needed.

 

 

Thank you, I will follow that advice. As mentioned I haven't been able to get crushed coral anyway so that isn't a problem and the small bottles of Seachem buffers will last me an eternity with a 10 gallon. I wasn't aware of the epsom salt trick until now (or if I was, I've long forgotten it), I have several local sources for that and I'll keep that in mind! Thank you a million times for your experienced advice, you're awesome!

[PearlTheBetta]

We have extremely soft water here in the upper left-hand corner of WA. Tiny town. I have 6 kids. I feel you!!! I wanted shrimp so bad and I adore snails!!! I use wonder shells for my snails, but I'm not brave enough to try shrimp yet. Wonder shells have allowed me to keep multiple mystery snails per 10 gallon tank. They are eating, active, and their shells are healthy! I hope they work for you. They are very cheap. Good luck!!! 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:02 PM, Rozmere said:

I might be getting my Seachem Alkaline Buffer sooner than I expected (today in fact) so we'll see if it helps. I won't get my Equilibrium for a while for some reason. I've never had to worry about my water parameters this much in the past and I had happy healthy tanks, so I have no experience with these new products.

your water seems like mine.  I dose about 3 scoops, 1/8 tsp per scoop, per 5g bucket during a water change to get me from 40 up to the 60-80 range for KH.

Edited April 14, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Rozmere]

On 4/14/2023 at 6:47 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

your water seems like mine.  I dose about 3 scoops, 1/8 tsp per scoop, per 5g bucket during a water change to get me from 40 up to the 60-80 range for KH.

 

On 4/14/2023 at 4:13 PM, PearlTheBetta said:

We have extremely soft water here in the upper left-hand corner of WA. Tiny town. I have 6 kids. I feel you!!! I wanted shrimp so bad and I adore snails!!! I use wonder shells for my snails, but I'm not brave enough to try shrimp yet. Wonder shells have allowed me to keep multiple mystery snails per 10 gallon tank. They are eating, active, and their shells are healthy! I hope they work for you. They are very cheap. Good luck!!! 

I'm glad to have some people who have similar water conditions to bounce questions off of.

Yes, I wanted to get the KH up to between 80-100, I already had a KH of about 40 so I added a carefully measured half tsp and it took it to around 80 or a little over which is within my comfort zone. I'm a bit more at ease now, although I'll be even happier when I get the other minerals in.

My dwarf sagittaria seems to be melting a bit, hopefully, the addition of minerals will help. When I can afford it I plan to get some water wisteria as well.

I LOVE snails, I particularly love golden apple snails, however, one time one of them made a salad out of a bunch of expensive plants I had bought. I couldn't be mad at him, but wow that was an expensive salad. I guess I shouldn't have left them alone as long as I did XD