High pH

[zpidi]

I am having a hard time lowering my pH. We have well water which sits pretty close to a pH of 7 but has a pretty high KH. In my tank I have fluval stratum, driftwood, plants, rocks and catappa leaves. I have used API lower pH and ill get it down closer to neutral but then the next day it will be back to a pH of 8. Am i doing something wrong or is my tank still cycling?

[Lennie]

Your water aerates in the tank so ph increases is my guess. You can observe it by filling a bucket, testing it, aerating it with an airstone for 24 hours, and test again to see the actual result.

I have a ph of 8.0 and kh of 20. Have never faced any issues before myself. You can choose fish that enjoy higher ph, or fish that are raised in higher ph conditions or closer to your water. Well, take it with a grain of salt, but I keep well known soft water fish with this ph and kh as well. That’s only my experience so someone else may experience different results.

do you have any lfs or breeders that share the same water parameters with you that you can get your fish from?

 

Do you like snails? It is pretty good for snails! 

[zpidi]

I have a sponge filter in there with the air pump pretty low I didn't think it would aerate it as much. I looked for fish that would enjoy a more neutral water since that is what I thought I had but now with this increase ill look at different fish if I can't get this figured out. 

[Lennie]

On 4/7/2023 at 3:43 PM, zpidi said:

I have a sponge filter in there with the air pump pretty low I didn't think it would aerate it as much. I looked for fish that would enjoy a more neutral water since that is what I thought I had but now with this increase ill look at different fish if I can't get this figured out. 

What fish exactly you wanna keep? Would you name some?

[zpidi]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:52 AM, Lennie said:

What fish exactly you wanna keep? Would you name some?

Betta, tetras, otos, kuhli loaches

[jwcarlson]

To get a baseline for what you're working with.  Fill a small jar (like a quart) with your tap water.  Test the pH immediately (sounds like you've already done this and it's 7).  Then drop in an airline or airstone and aerate the water for... overnight or so.  Test the pH again after the aeration.  It sounds like you basically have this number as well at 8, but it would be good to get the pH shift quantified outside of the aquarium just to eliminate some variables.

I would immediately discontinue the use of the pH up/down stuff.  It's a waste of time and money unless you've got much softer water.  With high KH the amount of "pH down" products you will have to add in order to lower your pH is astronomical.  Because your water has a high buffering capacity, which is why you see the pH immediately bounce back up.  This is also tough on your fish.

I haven't kept otos, but have kept everything else on your list in my tap water which comes out at 7 and aerates to 8.2-8.3 with massive KH and GH.  This shift (to my knowledge) is because of CO2 that's dissolved or captured in the water that off gases overtime and with agitation.  This is a function of temperature (warmer water off gases more quickly) and quantity - a jar will age more quickly than a 55 gallon barrel.  I've got a big, used ~65ish gallon barrel that used to have pickles in it that I use to hold my water 24 hours so that I can pre-heat it and aerate it.  Works well for me.  Then I have a submersible pump to pump it wherever I need it.

I believe all of those fish on your list can be kept in your tap water without any real issues (in my opinion and experience).  Overall, I think people WAY overblow pH when it comes to just standard fish keeping.  Breeding fish or keeping wild caught fish are a whole different situation and likely would require water modifications.  Cross that bridge when you get to it.

 

If you absolutely insist on messing with your water, you should get a small RO unit (my RO Buddie works pretty well, I have the 100 GPD unit, it cost something like $100).  Set up a small storage barrel (I currently use a 32 gallon garbage can from Home Depot) and use that to catch your RO and then mix it with a bit of tap water to try to hit the parameters you want.

Edited April 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[zpidi]

On 4/7/2023 at 9:36 AM, jwcarlson said:

To get a baseline for what you're working with.  Fill a small jar (like a quart) with your tap water.  Test the pH immediately (sounds like you've already done this and it's 7).  Then drop in an airline or airstone and aerate the water for... overnight or so.  Test the pH again after the aeration.  It sounds like you basically have this number as well at 8, but it would be good to get the pH shift quantified outside of the aquarium just to eliminate some variables.

I would immediately discontinue the use of the pH up/down stuff.  It's a waste of time and money unless you've got much softer water.  With high KH the amount of "pH down" products you will have to add in order to lower your pH is astronomical.  Because your water has a high buffering capacity, which is why you see the pH immediately bounce back up.  This is also tough on your fish.

I haven't kept otos, but have kept everything else on your list in my tap water which comes out at 7 and aerates to 8.2-8.3 with massive KH and GH.  This shift (to my knowledge) is because of CO2 that's dissolved or captured in the water that off gases overtime and with agitation.  This is a function of temperature (warmer water off gases more quickly) and quantity - a jar will age more quickly than a 55 gallon barrel.  I've got a big, used ~65ish gallon barrel that used to have pickles in it that I use to hold my water 24 hours so that I can pre-heat it and aerate it.  Works well for me.  Then I have a submersible pump to pump it wherever I need it.

I believe all of those fish on your list can be kept in your tap water without any real issues (in my opinion and experience).  Overall, I think people WAY overblow pH when it comes to just standard fish keeping.  Breeding fish or keeping wild caught fish are a whole different situation and likely would require water modifications.  Cross that bridge when you get to it.

 

If you absolutely insist on messing with your water, you should get a small RO unit (my RO Buddie works pretty well, I have the 100 GPD unit, it cost something like $100).  Set up a small storage barrel (I currently use a 32 gallon garbage can from Home Depot) and use that to catch your RO and then mix it with a bit of tap water to try to hit the parameters you want.

THANK YOU!!!

[Lennie]

I have otos and rummynose tetras from your desired list, and  haven't experienced any issues myself. The point with otos I believe is drip acclimating for much longer than a normal fish. Or at least that's what worked for me I think.

Btw, not only fish uses oxygen, and beneficial bacteria loves well oxygenated environment too. So if you are cycling your tank, I wouldn't personally keep the flow so low just because there is no fish. Even plants use oxygen during night time. So I would increase surface agitation and flow myself. BB prefers to live in the filters because there is constantly a high oxygen water flowing around as well as good amount of surface to live on, as far as I know.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Lennie

[jwcarlson]

It's important to note that decreasing aeration would basically just slow the pH shift down, not eliminate it.  Meaning... you can't keep your tap water at pH of 7 simply by not aerating it.  It's being aerated by gas exchange at the surface, so unless you bottle it... it will eventually shift.  

 

That's why measuring at the tap and after half a day or so is important.  It's almost important to note that you can't "over aerate" your water.  At least in this sense.  Meaning that your pH won't just keep going up if you aerate it longer.  The goal is to get it to the steady state that it would eventually arrive at in your aquarium.  

If you pH shifts only a little, say from 7 to 7.4 or something, it's not a big deal most likely.  I personally age/aerate everything I put into my tanks and my fish have benefited from it IMO.  Doubly so if you do any sort of large water changes, which is basically the only type I do.  Every thing is 50% or larger for me.

Edited April 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[AquaNoob]

I have a similar issue and was wondering if there is a point where my KH will be low enough to start keeping a lower PH? My tap is really hard water (30 GH, 15 KH) with a PH of about 8.2. I’m mixing in some distilled water and I’m at 5 GH and about 5-6 KH, but my PH is still 8.2. The water I’m mixing in is a lower PH but my tank PH isn’t budging. I need to continue mixing water for a softer water, but I’m just really curious on why the PH won’t budge. Something else must be buffering that I’m not seeing.

[zpidi]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:27 PM, AquaNoob said:

I have a similar issue and was wondering if there is a point where my KH will be low enough to start keeping a lower PH? My tap is really hard water (30 GH, 15 KH) with a PH of about 8.2. I’m mixing in some distilled water and I’m at 5 GH and about 5-6 KH, but my PH is still 8.2. The water I’m mixing in is a lower PH but my tank PH isn’t budging. I need to continue mixing water for a softer water, but I’m just really curious on why the PH won’t budge. Something else must be buffering that I’m not seeing.

I actually have soft waster which makes all this even weirder. Ive been using a mix of distilled and seachem Neutralizer. Even then the lowest PH ive been able to get is a 7.6 and it's back up closer to 8 in the morning. Im doing 20% water changes as of now daily with distilled so we will see where it lands.

[AquaNoob]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, zpidi said:

I actually have soft waster which makes all this even weirder. Ive been using a mix of distilled and seachem Neutralizer. Even then the lowest PH ive been able to get is a 7.6 and it's back up closer to 8 in the morning. Im doing 20% water changes as of now daily with distilled so we will see where it lands.

Same on this end - very odd (I'm mixing in soft, hard, and distilled water - everything is getting into the right softness/hardness except the stubborn PH)

[JettsPapa]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:27 PM, AquaNoob said:

I have a similar issue and was wondering if there is a point where my KH will be low enough to start keeping a lower PH? My tap is really hard water (30 GH, 15 KH) with a PH of about 8.2. I’m mixing in some distilled water and I’m at 5 GH and about 5-6 KH, but my PH is still 8.2. The water I’m mixing in is a lower PH but my tank PH isn’t budging. I need to continue mixing water for a softer water, but I’m just really curious on why the PH won’t budge. Something else must be buffering that I’m not seeing.

My pH is also 8.2.  I just run with it.  I have a wide range of fish and invertebrates doing just fine.

[AquaNoob]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:26 AM, JettsPapa said:

My pH is also 8.2.  I just run with it.  I have a wide range of fish and invertebrates doing just fine.

Yeah, I'm basically stuck with that, too. My only concern is mixing the lower PH distilled water in during my water changes and the fluctuation PH. I was hoping with the KH being lower, that would have kept the PH at the same, lower level...