Can I add 1 Angelfish or 1 Betta to 40 gallon tank?

[Jake19]

Hello all,

I hope you're all having a fishtastic Friday!

I have a 40 gallon breeder tank (36L x 16H x 18W).  These are the current residents:

3 Guppies

2 Mollies

1 Swordtail

1 Dwarf Gourami

1 Threadfin Rainbow

1 Bolivian Ram

1 German Ram

1 Apistogramma Cacatuoides

All of them get along swimmingly. 

Would it be possible to add either 1 Angelfish or 1 Betta?

Thank you!

Jake

[Kendall’s Aquarium]

Can you give us some more information on your tank? It is planted, what filtration are you running and how often are you changing water? 

[Lennie]

Hey @Jake19,

Welcome to the forum.

For your question, I would personally add neither an angelfish nor betta to that tank. Angelfish like to school and enjoy either being in pairs or in a bigger school. I have 5 that constantly schools all together in a community tank. When introduced, one had a struggle to find other 4 for a while and it got really stressed by itself. You should've seen its joy when it found other friends. Your tank is already stocked enough to introduce a small school of angels in my opinion.

Bettas temperament changes, but they are not really a community tank fish. Your tank has a lot of stuff going on already. Even if you get lucky enough to find a chill betta, it will be definitely outcompeted for food there and will face issues as they usually prefer a calm environment. It seems very hard to find a peaceful environment for a betta.

I would personally not add any fish there, but if you really want to, I would not consider any more territorial fish. You have two types of rams and one apisto which would like their own territory. Dwarf gouramis are also semi agressive, and swordtails are not the most peaceful fish.

I have a friend who ended up her angel killing her all rams one day. I read many times that a single angel will tend to be more agressive too. Not worth risking with your current stocking in my opinion

Edited March 31 by Lennie

[rockfisher]

No betta. You can keep angelfish I would go with at least 2. You will have to provide some areas that some of the smaller fish can. Get away when they want. If you choose this, get small angels to start. Let them grow up with the others in the tank. Angelfish tend to get calmed the more you have. You could easy have 3 angelfish in that tank. I start with 4 or 5 angels  dime size. Then let the grow until you can get a likely sex them. See if the LFS will take the males back. They are far more aggressive. That said I don’t typically have issues with angels. I use drift wood to provide a break we’re the Angels aren’t really going to go. Some plants, live or if you don’t do plants there are fakes. I like to get plants from Michael’s and put them in. You will have about 18 months until the angels get a good size and you can sex well. 

[Jake19]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:53 AM, Kendall’s Aquarium said:

Can you give us some more information on your tank? It is planted, what filtration are you running and how often are you changing water? 

Hello!

I have a Fluval Aquaclear 70 Power Filter and Tetra 40 Air Pump. The aquarium is not planted but it has quite a few artificial plants and hiding spots in the castle decor. I do water changes weekly to every other week depending on quality with a deeper clean monthly. 

[rockfisher]

You should be ok. I don’t do water changes so I will refrain from from that part. I was looking and have you though about add a ram and a couple of the apistos to make a pair and trio?

[Jake19]

I did think of adding another ram perhaps but wasn't really sure if additional rams and/or apistos would cause problems. 

[rockfisher]

I have sexed pairs in a community tank. It has a sexed pair of rams and and had a trio of of apistos. I breed angels and have had angels since I was 14 years old, so I have lots of knowledge and experience with those. The rams and apistos I have kept and know some about I don’t have that great depth of knowledge. I only than this set up I have now I have only keep the to breed for short periods.  
 

 @fishfolk221  @Odd Duck maybe you can help. Sorry if I confused and you have kept this. 

[Ninjoma]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:55 AM, Lennie said:

Angelfish like to school and enjoy either being in pairs or in a bigger school

 

On 3/31/2023 at 9:55 AM, Lennie said:

. I read many times that a single angel will tend to be more agressive too.

I want to add an alternative perspective to this one. This is the information from ACO's article (https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/angelfish-care-guide) regarding keeping solo angelfish Can angelfish be kept alone? In our experience, keeping a single angelfish does not seem to adversely affect their well-being. While they do shoal or swim together in the wild, having just one as the centerpiece fish in your aquarium seems to make them much more easygoing and docile overall.

Anecdotally I also keep an angelfish as a solo centerpiece in my 29g. He has expressed no agression whatsoever to the platys, german blue rams, otos and kuhli loaches he lives with. He previously lived with black skirt tetras and neon tetras and also showed no agression to them. He does nip at mystery snail antenna though. 

[Lennie]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:38 AM, Ninjoma said:

 

I want to add an alternative perspective to this one. This is the information from ACO's article (https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/angelfish-care-guide) regarding keeping solo angelfish Can angelfish be kept alone? In our experience, keeping a single angelfish does not seem to adversely affect their well-being. While they do shoal or swim together in the wild, having just one as the centerpiece fish in your aquarium seems to make them much more easygoing and docile overall.

Anecdotally I also keep an angelfish as a solo centerpiece in my 29g. He has expressed no agression whatsoever to the platys, german blue rams, otos and kuhli loaches he lives with. He previously lived with black skirt tetras and neon tetras and also showed no agression to them. He does nip at mystery snail antenna though. 

 

I personally believe angels require a backup plan no matter what setup they are being introduced to, I have even seen pair hating and damaging each other from time to time. Peoples’ opinions may change for sure. That article also suggests keeping up to 4 adults in a 29g in a community tank. I cannot imagine keeping 4 adults in a community angelfish tank myself as they really enjoy having a swimming space. It is not about water quality only to me. But that’s my opinion.
 

you can also easily find many experiences regarding angels destroying neon tetras and guppies when they grow up. Also in angelfish tank mate unboxing video of aquarium coop, it is not advised to keep gouramis and guppys with angelfish. Neons are also mentioned as natural preys for angels in that video too. So advised to be avoided as well.

To me, potential aggression with 3 other different cichlids, semi aggressive gourami and swordtail and potential preying on guppies ain’t worth it especially without a backup plan. Because angelfish behavior becomes an issue once they grow up enough to be territorial and easily put some other fish into their mouth. 
 

I have even created a topic about keeping rams and apistos here in this forum and although a few people mentioned they had no issues, most people did not recommend it and some even had lost their fish after some time. My friend had kept her angel babies with rams for 6 months and grew them up together and one day angel killed them all. You never know.

Fish’s behavior as a juvenile and as an adult/breeding mood changes a lot!

@nabokovfan87 also once mentioned that his single angle was quite aggressive. Would u like to share some thoughts dude?

[Ninjoma]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:20 PM, Lennie said:

Fish’s behavior as a juvenile and as an adult/breeding mood changes a lot!

Oh yeah, I totally agree. It's very possible my angelfish gets more aggressive with age. He's maybe 80% grown. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:43 AM, Jake19 said:

I have a 40 gallon breeder tank (36L x 16H x 18W).  These are the current residents:

3 Guppies

2 Mollies

1 Swordtail

1 Dwarf Gourami

1 Threadfin Rainbow

1 Bolivian Ram

1 German Ram

1 Apistogramma Cacatuoides

All of them get along swimmingly. 

On 3/31/2023 at 9:20 PM, Lennie said:

@nabokovfan87 also once mentioned that his single angle was quite aggressive. Would u like to share some thoughts dude?

I would just verify temps on the stocking above.  I wanted to mention that up front because you have GBR and a Bolivian ram. usually there's about a 4 degree difference in temp for them.
 

On 3/31/2023 at 9:43 AM, Jake19 said:

Would it be possible to add either 1 Angelfish or 1 Betta?

I don't recall the specific stocking, but I had a very crazy situation happen with an angelfish in a community tank.  I can't say it's because of a single vs. shoal of angels.  I agree that you should be able to have one as a centerpiece generally speaking.

The fish we had in the tank were such that they fit really well as a prey item for the angel.  The angel his maturity and hormones kicked in, he happened to be a male, and that resulted in about half the tank getting attacked and killed in a very short time period.  I called all of the shops locally (big box stores) and no one would take the fish.   The clerk at the store happened to be one who bred angels and took the fish home to his tank as a potential breeding male for his angels.

The fish in question were long/thin.  Think neon tetra in shape and size.  For any aggressive fish like that, if that smaller fish doesn't have a place to escape to, if there aren't LOS breaks, then that leads to an issue like I had, potentially.

As such. My recommendation would be that...

-Whatever the tank is, make sure you have a tall enough tank. You do.
-Whatever the hardscape is, make sure it's designed in such a way that the fish itself can have some open space, but any prey fish can have cover.  Heavily planted, tall decor is best for that.  Especially using stems and epiphytes.
-Whatever fish you choose here, have a backup plan.

A betta could have a bad attitude and not want to accept a community setup.  Angel, as mentioned above, same thing.  Between the two, I can't say which is best or which I would choose.  It feels like GBR / Betta might be good in their own setup, the bolivian and the angel might do better in it's own setup (40 B).

Having the guppy fry, guppies, and other live bearers in there would be a risk in my view for an angel.  Again, not enough information, but that's just what I would look at based on my own issues getting one.

[Jake19]

The 3 guppies are male so no chance of baby making. The temperature is around 80 degrees which depending on what article you read is inclusive for all of them. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:19 PM, Jake19 said:

The 3 guppies are male so no chance of baby making. The temperature is around 80 degrees which depending on what article you read is inclusive for all of them. 

Agreed. Just something to sanity check so to speak to make sure you're ok with it. 🙂

Sounds like the tank is doing perfectly fine and the different needs are balanced.

[Lennie]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:19 AM, Jake19 said:

The 3 guppies are male so no chance of baby making. The temperature is around 80 degrees which depending on what article you read is inclusive for all of them. 

Male guppies are the ones likely to be a food for adult angels

Babies would surely be a snack but adult male guppys are too. They are very thin and slow swimmers compared to angels

Edited April 1 by Lennie

[Goldie Blue]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:37 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

A betta could have a bad attitude and not want to accept a community setup.

I have zero experience with angelfish, but I have a lot of experience with betta fish, and this advice is more often the case. "Most" bettas are as I like to call them "anger fish" and they don't do great in community tanks, or bigger tanks for that matter. They like really calm, smaller tanks, and usually prefer to be alone.

Males have bigger fins, and struggle to swim and be active enough to get to the top of a tank for air (they are labyrinth fish, and need to get to the top quite a bit) and they stress VERY easily leading to fin rot and other health issues that make them decline quite fast. That isn't to say they can't get along and thrive in a community tank, but your current inhabitants will absolutely stress a betta out. 

I'd probably avoid a betta, they are hard enough to keep healthy in a solitary setting, add in the stress of a community and it probably won't make him/her happy. 

 

[Odd Duck]

A betta or an angelfish would both be a fairly significant risk.  Back in the “old days” it was fairly common to keep bettas in community tanks but it was rare to find the extreme finnage seen on so many today.  You might get away with a plakat  betta as far as him being able to compete for food but you would still be taking a risk for him not killing other fish.

An angelfish is still a cichlid and therefore can have an unpredictable personality, especially if hormonal.  If you get a youngster and grow it up in your community tank, it might be fine.  But it also might go on a rampage and start munching or chasing so hard that the prey fish slams into the glass and dies.  An adult angelfish can eat fish bigger than you might think from looking at their tiny mouth.  I’ve seen them yawn and it opens much bigger that you might think.

When I decided to put together an angelfish tank, I did loads of reading on companion fish, how many for what size tank, etc.  I was hoping to do a nice school of rummynose tetras.  They are often recommended as tank mates to angels.  Well, I found way too many stories of angels eating their rummynose tank mates.  And neons and even cardinal tetras are smaller than rummynoses.  Certainly male guppies have a smaller body than rummynoses and if they’re dragging much of a tail are far slower than angels at full speed.

Bottom line is, you might get lucky enough to have a plakat betta or an angel prosper in a community tank, but it could also end up as a disaster or full on carnage.  You have to be ready to act if carnage starts and have an alternate tank ready and waiting.  Or perhaps pick a centerpiece fish that is less likely to end in disaster.  Maybe a singleton of one of the dwarf gourami species?