patchtech Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 Figured there would be no better time than now to jump in and start logging my progress with my introduction to the hobby. The prologue To start, I've always wanted a fish tank. But never really pushed into the hobby. Last year, at a trip to the local petsmart, my kid (3 years old at the time) got really excited about the pink fish on the wall (glofish). Upon subsequent trips, after playing with the kittens in the adoption area, her next stop would always be to look at the fish. We decided it would be a great thing to do, having something that both me and her can be invested in and share between us. We bought a fluval flex 32g during a black friday sale and hid it away as a Christmas day surprise. The beginning A lot of the main tank decisions have been primarily driven by the interests of my kid. Therefore we initially built out the tank with glofish in mind, and wanted to 'simplify' our care requirements by not introducing live plants initially. We got everything set up, and the water flowing, and just let it sit like that for a couple weeks to make sure everything functioned. Kiddo started getting impatient, and I had been dragging my feet on actually cycling the tank, so I made the decision to cycle the tank with a few danios. I work from home, and knew I could monitor chemical levels at breakfast/lunch/dinner until we were 'cycled', and could do water changes any time they creeped up. We decided to purchase 4 glofish danios, and let them hang out in the tank. The Glofish We originally had a green, blue, orange, and red glofish. When we got home, we noticed one of the glofish had a little concave dimple just behind it's gills on its belly side. Within the first 24 hours, we noticed the fish weren't settling down really, and every time the air clam opened, they would dart around the tank. Bad decision #1 identified! We removed the clam, and they started to settle down. As the days went by, we noticed we didn't see the blue one much. He started hiding inside the house in the middle, and any time he would venture out, the red one would chase him down. The red one also kept everyone corralled into different sections of the tank. Orange had to stay in the top left, green had to stay in the top right, and blue had to stay in the house, generally. Then one day, red just started swimming frantically around the tank. Up/down/sideways... and then stopped. The only real assumption we have is something happened to his swim bladder. After red departed the tank, everyone seemed to get comfortable and found new places to hang out in the tank. It was around this time that we noticed orange stopped eating. Orange would also hang out right above one of the two return flows almost constantly, and was looking very very emaciated. Bought a breeder mesh, isolated orange, and tried to feed. Orange departed within hours. Since we were down to two, we went to get more danios from the fish store, this time opting for zebra danios. The store had a tank of 'assorted longfin danio", and we got 5 from the assorted tank, and one more red glofish (kid really likes that one), for a total of 6 danios to go with the green and blue glofish danios still in the tank. Parasites? Shortly after, green started to stop eating, and hanging around filter intakes. Blue started having similar indentation in the belly as the orange. Frantic research time. Came to the conclusion that we must have some kind of an internal parasite infection, as I could not identify any outward signs for them getting sick. We isolated green and blue with a breeder mesh, and they departed shortly after (couple days) as well. Down to 6 danios. Dosed some coppersafe, and did some reading on common danio parasites, and stumbled up information suggesting danios commonly get sick with internal nematode infections, and the symptoms seemed to fit. Bought some Expel-P and before it arrived had a confirmation of a contagious parasite of sorts, as one of the new danios stopped eating and started hanging around filter intakes. Did the breeder isolation dance again, and this one departed the day before Expel-P arrived. Dosed the tank with Expel-P, and prayed for the best. So far, it seems the one dose took care of the issues. Stabilized As you can see, the landscape has also changed a bit. We have pulled out the large house in the middle, added some bushier artificial foliage in the corners, and put in a Stargate and a large air stone. Also added a powerhead in the back corner to add in some higher water flow, as I read danios really like faster moving water. You can also see the lovely diatoms growing, telling me this tank is starting to age successfully. This shot was taken just before we left town for 3 days, with the topfin multi-day feeder brick there in the white. This thing really clouded the water, and we haven't really gotten clear since. BUT the fish survived us being out of town, and are still thriving. Diatom Explosion Diatoms started growing and covering everything. I wiped everything down a couple times, but I'm lazy, and I didn't want to have to keep cleaning everything all the time. Queue decision to add our next set of fish! A cleanup crew of some sort would hopefully help keep things under control without me having to obsess about it. Went to petco, grabbed a 10 gal quarantine tank and a sponge filter, and started doing a tankless cycle. I really didn't want to introduce something else after going through the parasite episode. Did someone say shrimp? After doing some research on cleanup crews... I gravitated towards shrimp for some reason. (Ok, blue shrimp was the reason). I did a little research, and realized I could also add them directly to the tank instead of quarantining them with minimal risk of cross-species issues. Went to the LFS, and bought 6 shrimp. 2 blue, and 4 red. I was going to do all blue... but... blue shrimp were expensive! Introduced them to the tank, and they have subsequently found their expert hiding places for their game of hide and seek with me. I know at least 2 are still alive, as I've seen a blue and a red one around the tank in the past day, and everything in the tank is starting to look ever so slightly cleaner over time. I ordered some java moss from Aquarium Co-op as well, to hopefully give the shrimp a place they'd feel more comfortable hanging out in that would be more visible. But, I want more blue shrimp! I really wanted more, so I did some searching around and found aquahuna. They had the shrimp for a fraction of what I paid at the LFS. I ordered a pack of 8 blue shrimp and waited. Yesterday, my shrimp came in, and I got way more than I bargained for. All 8 shrimp arrived alive, and inside the bag I had a hard time making out what looked to be some kind of belly growth. Seeing some posts about parasitic algae, I decided to dump the shrimp into a clear container and take a good look. Turns out, two of the shrimp were berried! Not only that, but I could see baby shrimp swimming around! I got way more than I bargained for. (the small black spot with a tail just above and left of the sponge) "Breeder" tank So, I had to change plans, because I didn't want to waste the potential of having more shrimp. I've been getting slightly obsessed with shrimp anyways, and now really really want to do a shrimp only tank when the time is right. Time to turn the quarantine tank into a breeder. I dumped the quarantine tank water (has been at 2.0 total ammonia and high nitrate as I was fishless cycling the tank.) I had already started drip acclimating the shrimp to the main tank when I decided to do this, so I took 2.5 gallons of fresh tap water, and 5 gallons of main tank water, and filled up the tank and put the java moss in it. I also threw some zeo-carb I had on hand and some of my filter floss I'd had in the main tank that hopefully also has bacteria on it to help with the bio load. I moved the drip acclimation over to this tank and let it continue, and the shrimp seem to be settling in well. One of the shrimp have molted even, although I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing at the moment... So, that's about it. I have some fun trial and error info I'll share in another post as I get time to write it up, and will try to keep the updates coming as much as I can. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJs Aquatics Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 I can’t wait to read more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 Quick update: I counted somewhere between 4 and 6 little baby shrimp in the tank today, and I wasn't even looking for them. I'm sure there's more hiding around. Total Ammonia is staying low, usually about just under 0.25, had one small spike to 0.5. Using api kit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 On 3/30/2023 at 9:58 AM, patchtech said: Dosed some coppersafe, and did some reading on common danio parasites, and stumbled up information suggesting danios commonly get sick with internal nematode infections, and the symptoms seemed to fit. Bought some Expel-P and before it arrived had a confirmation of a contagious parasite of sorts, as one of the new danios stopped eating and started hanging around filter intakes. Did the breeder isolation dance again, and this one departed the day before Expel-P arrived. Dosed the tank with Expel-P, and prayed for the best. So far, it seems the one dose took care of the issues. Be careful with the copper and the shrimp. Most shrimp are highly affected by the copper and there is reports that "you can't ever remove it" because it seeps into surfaces. Seachem has a product called cuprisorb that should help, but just wanted to mention it. Stuff like Expel-P / Paracleanse, I recommend at least 2 doses. First dose kills what is matured, the second dose kills what hatches out prior to the first dose. Cory has a video on using paracleanse, the same logic applies to (and I believe is also covered) in that paracleanse video. 🙂 The tanks look good! I'm excited to see what you do with them. Enjoy it, have fun, best of luck, and welcome to the forums! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 3, 2023 Author Share Posted April 3, 2023 (edited) On 4/1/2023 at 1:50 AM, nabokovfan87 said: Be careful with the copper and the shrimp. Most shrimp are highly affected by the copper and there is reports that "you can't ever remove it" because it seeps into surfaces. Seachem has a product called cuprisorb that should help, but just wanted to mention it. Because of this, I grabbed a copper testing kit from seachem just to be sure. Sure enough, I had copper in both tanks (one of the sponges from the main tank is in the 10g tank to help with beneficial bacteria). Cuprisorb purchased, is now sitting in both tanks. Thank you so very much! Edited April 3, 2023 by patchtech 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 4, 2023 Author Share Posted April 4, 2023 Quick short update on shrimp babies: I counted 7 visible baby shrimp tonight. Hiding in places like the old fluval flex filter sponge I dropped in there. I'm assuming there's a lot more hiding. I also grabbed me some Bacter AE to feed them, as I was starting to get mildly concerned about ensuring enough nutrients for them. Seachem's copper test kit is a pain in the but to read. But it does seem to be getting lighter. Considering the cuprisorb is just laying next to the sponge filter in the shrimp tank, I'm taking that as a big win. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 4, 2023 Author Share Posted April 4, 2023 Patch's Fish-in cycle: As I mentioned above, due to me dragging my feet on some things, and needing to retain kiddo's interest in the tank, I pulled the trigger on doing a fish-in cycle instead of a fishless. I work from home, and knew I could test the fish tank morning, noon, and night; to keep an eye on the ammonia. I did some research on the fish, and saw that danios (albeit not necessarily glofish variants) were hardier than most fish, and are suggested as a good first fish for beginners anyways. So glofish danio fish cycling it is! (I'll leave out the sickness stuff for another post) With 4 fish in a 32 gallon tank, I figured I had enough water to keep ammonia from becoming a major issue, and also brought home a bottle of APC Quick Start. The first few days, I was changing out an entire bucket of water every other day just about. Pretty much any time the APC ammonia test definitely had any green tint to it (they can be a little hard to read). After a few days, I started wondering why my seachem ammonia badge was not matching the APC results. Some deep diving into "free" vs "total" ammonia. About this time, I also came across seachem stability, and I really liked the fact that it was a regular addition instead of a one time thing. Time for a new cycling protocol, instead of the "change water any time I see ammonia" one. I printed off the API test of TAN conversion chart from aquarium science. Basically, it breaks down the alert/alarm/toxic ppm readings for various PH levels, so you can estimate your toxic free ammonia levels. Figuring more ammonium would mean more food for bacteria to multiply and do their thing, and that I needed to stop lugging my water buckets so much to save my back, I would stop changing the water until it reached into the alarm threshold. I never hit the alarm threshold. My tank is somewhere between 7.6 and 7.8 PH, and 7.8 ph "alarm" value is 4ppm. It hovered around 1ppm total ammonia for a while, and I did have a day or so spike to 2ppm right before a regular weekend water change, but it definitely was doing great. Fish stayed happy the entire time, and there was a very brief moment in time (like 24 hours) where I even had detectable amounts of nitrites before they fell off. This was about the time of the diatom bloom that sparked my interest in getting a cleanup crew. Recently, my main tank ammonia has been creeping up a little bit again. But I've removed both sponges from the fluval flex for the intank inserts. (Which will be a different post as well). The important takeaway (for me) from the cycle experience: In this age of "fishless cycling," strong emotions, and easily available ammonium, it does appear people are quick to say "Ammonia bad", and judge with a "Why hurt the fish?" without much more education. Which, for the majority of the cases, I understand and agree. I'm glad I was able to find the information I needed to de-stress myself, but I would've appreciated an easier to access breakdown of the science behind it. And to not feel so bad about having to go fish-in cycling. (Also, shoutout to the "seasoning a tank" vid) In my opinion and from this experience, If you know what you're doing and are attentive and borderline obsessive about it, a fish-in cycle does feel safe and doable. And you don't have to feel like a jerk doing it. Information just needs to be more accessible about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXInkedPhoenixX Posted April 4, 2023 Share Posted April 4, 2023 (edited) I've done fish in cycling many times. I'm super diligent about water changes/monitoring levels and it never gets to where the fish are uncomfortable at all. You have to be absolutely dedicated and not be lazy about it (it really isn't that hard). I think when you understand the cycling process (most people who accidentally do it when beginning the hobby don't, so sadly this is often the fail point) you know what to look for and how to avoid it! Edited April 4, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 RIP Single Shrimp Quick update on the shrimp. First, the good news. The baby shrimp are growing! \o/ And looks like the last pregnant female has finally laid her eggs/hatched her babies, as there's a new set of tiny shrimp. Also, looks like a few of the older baby shrimp are starting to become visible without any assistance or looking up close with creative lighting. The bad news: Looks like I had one shrimp pass. Yesterday morning I saw a molt casing that looked a little pink and blurry along the feet. Didn't think much of it, and when I checked the tank at lunch time I saw what looked like another molting at the same spot. I thought that was oddly interesting, so I took my phone light and looked around the tank and saw a shrimp laying on it's side with the red spot on its back right next to the molting area. I've been having trouble with nitrates being high recently (between 10 and 20), and have been doing a 50% water change every couple days day at the moment, and debating on moving the big shrimp over to the larger tank, now that all babies are hatched. Also looks like the nitrates in my source water are non-zero, which is probably not helping at all. Also grabbed some aquarium coop testing strips, as I don't have anything that can tell me the specific parameters of gh and kh at the moment. I'm hoping this was just a random one-off at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick-In-Of-TheSea Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 8:56 AM, patchtech said: RIP Single Shrimp Quick update on the shrimp. First, the good news. The baby shrimp are growing! \o/ And looks like the last pregnant female has finally laid her eggs/hatched her babies, as there's a new set of tiny shrimp. Also, looks like a few of the older baby shrimp are starting to become visible without any assistance or looking up close with creative lighting. The bad news: Looks like I had one shrimp pass. Yesterday morning I saw a molt casing that looked a little pink and blurry along the feet. Didn't think much of it, and when I checked the tank at lunch time I saw what looked like another molting at the same spot. I thought that was oddly interesting, so I took my phone light and looked around the tank and saw a shrimp laying on it's side with the red spot on its back right next to the molting area. I've been having trouble with nitrates being high recently (between 10 and 20), and have been doing a 50% water change every couple days day at the moment, and debating on moving the big shrimp over to the larger tank, now that all babies are hatched. Also looks like the nitrates in my source water are non-zero, which is probably not helping at all. Also grabbed some aquarium coop testing strips, as I don't have anything that can tell me the specific parameters of gh and kh at the moment. I'm hoping this was just a random one-off at the moment. Nitrates 10-20 should not be a concern. I usually take action around 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick-In-Of-TheSea Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/3/2023 at 10:15 PM, patchtech said: If you know what you're doing and are attentive and borderline obsessive about it, a fish-in cycle does feel safe and doable A combination of testing (daily), water changes, and Prime (or other ammonia-binding dechlorinator) makes it possible. Your shrimps will really appreciate some cholla wood or alder cones. Perhaps some catappa leaves as well. These are things they can not only pick at for food, but they also use them for cover, and it helps them to feel comfortable. It doesn't take very long for my shrimp to eat a catappa leaf. Since you don't have that many shrimp yet, you can cut the catappa leaf into 3 or 4 pieces, and just put a piece in at a time until they consume it. I have blue shrimp also. Aren't they cool? Edited April 13, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 9:23 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said: I have blue shrimp also. Aren't they cool? I mean, They may or may not have initiated an obsession.... 😄 currently fighting the urge to buy a cheap 40 gallon breeder from petco while it's on sale..... On 4/13/2023 at 9:07 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said: Nitrates 10-20 should not be a concern. Any links to any resources on this for shrimp? Any time I search for more concrete tested values for neocaridina I only find sites that just say "Single digits".... My brain prefers a little more technical breakdown. On 4/13/2023 at 9:23 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said: Your shrimps will really appreciate some cholla wood or alder cones. Perhaps some catappa leaves as well. Yeah, these will be in the near future. Since this batch is in their own tank, I've delayed a bit. I've got some shrimp dinner I give them here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick-In-Of-TheSea Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 11:44 AM, patchtech said: Any links to any resources on this for shrimp Yep see screenshot above “what the test results mean”. (Note: the last sentence refers to saltwater). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolstoy21 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Is it possible the diatoms are coming through the stargate? If so, you might want to check how you're encoding each chevron. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 2:13 PM, tolstoy21 said: s it possible the diatoms are coming through the stargate? If so, you might want to check how you're encoding each chevron. Thanks! This gave me a well needed laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 5:56 AM, patchtech said: The bad news: Looks like I had one shrimp pass. Yesterday morning I saw a molt casing that looked a little pink and blurry along the feet. Didn't think much of it, and when I checked the tank at lunch time I saw what looked like another molting at the same spot. I thought that was oddly interesting, so I took my phone light and looked around the tank and saw a shrimp laying on it's side with the red spot on its back right next to the molting area. If you can next time snap a photo. Could be indicative of something and potentially there can be an adjustment made to help. New shrimp, it's pretty normal too. Unfortunately. Congratulations on the baby shrimp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 I did snap some photos after getting the shrimp and molts out. Attached them. Not sure how good the lighting is to show all details 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 5:56 AM, patchtech said: I've been having trouble with nitrates being high recently (between 10 and 20), and have been doing a 50% water change every couple days day at the moment, and debating on moving the big shrimp over to the larger tank, now that all babies are hatched. Also looks like the nitrates in my source water are non-zero, which is probably not helping at all. Also grabbed some aquarium coop testing strips, as I don't have anything that can tell me the specific parameters of gh and kh at the moment. I'm hoping this was just a random one-off at the moment. I see the comments above. For a shrimp only tank I wouldn't expect nitrates to get much higher than this. Initially I would hope for them to be sub 10, but as the colony grows you'll see more. Overfeeding shrimp is really, really easy to do. In a community tank it's even easier to have a lot of food on the bottom and end with "the shrimp will get it" or "I've got snails in there for cleanup" or "yep, corydoras". Long story short, it just sort of depends on a lot of factors. If you're seeing +20 nitrates every 3 days, that's a bit. If you're seeing 40-60+ per week, that's a lot. Having plants in there really will help balance some of that out. Especially once you get a mass of quick growing ones to thrive. On 4/13/2023 at 2:53 PM, patchtech said: I did snap some photos after getting the shrimp and molts out. Attached them. Not sure how good the lighting is to show all details Ah, much harder to see given the body color on the shrimp. The molt looks very normal. Sometimes when a shrimp has a difficult time molting (or just in general) than they will over exert themselves resulting in what you're seeing. The red spots look like where the eyes would be, maybe it hurt itself fatally or something. If this is what it is, that's fine and you did good by pulling the body and shell. If there's any sort of disease causing issues in a death you don't want them to eat the body and pass on that parasite or infection. Keep an eye on the ones in the tank, see what you see 🙂 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchtech Posted April 17, 2023 Author Share Posted April 17, 2023 Small update on the shrimp, and some pics! I've moved the main 7 shrimp over to the main tank. Basically started a drip acclimation around lunch time and let it run till after dinner, when I put the bag into the main tank and let the temperatures equalize. I also moved over the java moss, figuring the big guys could use it more, going into an unfamiliar tank. It also had the side effect of pulling the other shrimp out of hiding in the main tank. I was also able to snap some good shots of everyone. Feeding Shots: Baby shrimp! In the bag, waiting to be released: Checking out the new tank: This one's ready to go clubbing! "If I lay low and still, they can't see me!" Aspiring stargate mechanic: OG Shrimp checking out the java moss: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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