Apistogramma Breeding Tank

[Lennie]

Hey guys,

Hope you are doing well.

Today, I got myself a tank, mainly for the purposes of breeding apistos! I have a spare HOB, heater, light, mat as well as aquasoil. So all I need was a tank and fish basically. Lots of plant cuttings I can take from my other tanks!

As I have no previous experience with any apisto species, I'd like to get some info for the basics for setting up a breeding tank for the apistos.

I am planning to get 1m 1f, unless it is sold as 1m:2f in the LFS.

Questions:

From what I've been told, they like caves. So I will try to introduce caves. The question is, is one enough, or more than one is ideal? Is the location of caves important? Like should they have vision blocking decorations or plants in between, or does not matter as mainly females claim the caves and there will be only one anyway?

Would an aquasoil base work for the apistos? I'd like to use what I have on my hand rather than buying something new. I also like planting a lot, so aquasoil does the job well for me in general and I don't like topping it up.

I have RO water too. Should I use RO water in that tank, or just the tap water? My tap reads, 8.0, 0 gh, 20 kh, 0/0/20nitrate. I boost gh with Equilibrium in any case. My RO reads around 6.0ish ph, very low kh, 0gh, 0/0/0.

Would breeding pair need a clean-up crew with them, or is it for the best to leave them alone?

The tank info:

The tank is 55cmx33cmx21.5cmh. So it is wide and long, but pretty short. Thought this would be suitable for a breeding pair as they are mostly a bottom dwellers and enjoy that sort of swimming space. What do you think?

The pic of the tank:

Potential apistos I consider are Fire Reds, Borellis, elizabethae, hongsloi. Or maybe anything interesting my LFS carries in the future.

Please share your opinion and advices for me!

Apisto guys unite and help Lennie to join the family! 😄@anewbie, @tolstoy21, @Rube_Goldfish, @jwcarlson, @Fish Folk, @NOLANANO

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Lennie

[anewbie]

The condition of the aquarium and setup depends somewhat on species; I'm not a fan 'caves' per sey but yes apisto like nook and crannies they can defend. I tend to make mine more natural using driftwood and stone; but coconut shells and flower pots are used by a lot of folks. 

If i did the conversion correctly your aquarium is somewhere between 10 and 15 so quite small with 12 inch wide and 20 inches long so it is quite small for many of these species. Experience breeders can breed them via adding the fishes and then removing the male.

fire reds is not a species; I presume you likely mean agassiz but I've seen the colour use with other species. To breed they need acidic soft water but not as extreme as blackwater. I'd suggest at least a 20 long for this species.

borellis are a white water fish and will breed in more neutral water that is not excessively hard. They are also a bit more passive and a good starting fish. Like other harem breeders the male needs a place to hide when the female has egg/frys - a 20 long is good size but they can be bred in a 15 with much care.

Elizabethae i believe require true blackwater to breed.

hongsloi are a larger fish and unless i made a mistake on the size of your aquarium it is too small for them. They are quasi pair forming at times and sometime harem - m/f aggression is lower than some species like agassiz. I believe they are clear water fish and will breed in ph just below 7 and tds around 80-90.

Your best best are borellis in your size aquarium though i think it is on the small side. Another species that works well in a small aquarium is pucallpaensis; they are smaller than borelli (and not as colourful) but quasi pair forming so not so much aggression between m/f once they agree to breed. 

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You did not mention your gh or tds but i suspect they are quite hard. For borelli you could mix 20% tap with 80% ro and probably end up with something that works - around kh 5 but it would be useful to know your gh. For the other species you will need more ro water - for elizabeth you have to setup a tank with lots of botanicals and ro water - and try to stablize it with tds around 40 and ph 5.5. Again given the size of the aquarium you could end up with male killing female or vice versa. 

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When you scape the aquarium yuo want lots of hardscape to block line of sight so the fishes have place to hide from each other. While individuals have different level of aggression it can in many cases be quite extreme.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by anewbie

[Lennie]

thanks for the good info!

I have a tank that I can spare a male or female if needed from time to time.

On 3/27/2023 at 8:54 PM, anewbie said:

You did not mention your gh or tds but i suspect they are quite hard. For borelli you could mix 20% tap with 80% ro and probably end up with something that works - around kh 5 but it would be useful to know your gh. For the other species you will need more ro water - for elizabeth you have to setup a tank with lots of botanicals and ro water - and try to stablize it with tds around 40 and ph 5.5. 

Idk my tds exactly as I don't have a tds reader, but my gh reads 0 on both tap and RO. I mentioned it above, it probably got lost between a lot of zeros 😄. I raise it with equilibrium in my tanks based on the tank and the stocking. So I can manually set it up in accordance with the needs of the fish. So no problems on that one!

 

Are apistos active swimmers? They seem super chill and lazy from the videos I watched and my observation from LFS.

On 3/27/2023 at 8:54 PM, anewbie said:

When you scape the aquarium yuo want lots of hardscape to block line of sight so the fishes have place to hide from each other. While individuals have different level of aggression it can in many cases be quite extreme.

I have lots of driftwood and plants I can use! I can easily get this covered

Edited March 27, 2023 by Lennie

[jwcarlson]

I've only been keeping apistos for a matter of months, but would agree that the tank is a bit on the smaller side.  I've seen a lot of suggestions on the internet for spawning a pair of apistos in a 10 gallon tank and having a few pairs now... I cannot wrap my head around that being possible.  I suppose if you spawn them and then pull the male it might work.  But in terms of long-term living, I cannot imagine a pair cohabitating in a 10 gallon without a bad ending.  Even a 29 seems a bit small.  Though all I have is Hongsloi, so unsure if that's because they're a bit bigger?  But I also understand that they are a less aggressive variety than some others.  

That's about all I've got to offer.  I have two man made caves for each pair.  Male seems to only enter them during spawn or on other "random" infrequent occasions.  The driftwood in all of my tanks also offer at least one and as many as 2 or 3 small caves.  When you're picking it out from the store, keep an eye for that.  I think I might move to at least one cut in half flower pot in each tank because the man made caves are very small.  The male hongsloi really have to try hard to get in them which always makes me worry.  

They'll ram into small holes though... here's one of my pairs during a spawn (about 57 seconds in if this doesn't go right to it):

 

More generally, they do tend to stay near the bottom, but I would say the utilize more of the water column than I would have thought.  A pressured female will tend to hang out higher in the water during times when the male is quite pushy.  One pair of mine, the female hangs out up top quite a bit, but it's getting better.  I put one of those floating beta logs in and she hangs out in there when he gets too crazy.  Typically, the Hongsloi have been pretty 'chill'.

Edited March 27, 2023 by jwcarlson

[NOLANANO]

I unfortunately never got my Apistos to breed so I may not be much help. I can just tell you what I observed with the 3 species that I have kept.

I found that trifasciata (I think thats how its spelled) need a harem because of how aggressive they are with the females. Not hurting them physically but never really leaving them alone.

My Macmasteri was much more chill but I am not convinced that the female the LFS sold me was another Macmasteri, I kind of think it was a cacatuoides female. The two got along just fine but the Male never really tried to make advances on the female.

The Borelli was my favorite but the poor little guy never had a real shot due to my ignorance.  First I had him and his female with a pair of GBRs and he hid most of the time but when he and his female were out, He would display for her quite a bit. Not nearly as aggressive as the trifasciata but definitely more interested than my Macmasteri (which is why I started to look into the species of the female). Then I had him the tank with the Macmasteri which eventually led me to return him to the LFS.

At the moment, I don't have any Apistos and I feel like its because I would want a small group similar to how I keep GBRs (2M and 3-5F) but my LFS usually only gets a pair in at a time or they get 1M with several F.  To me the most interesting part of dwarf cichlids is watching them interact with each other and set territories and such. I just don't feel like I get that full experience with only a single male. 

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful but I hope I at least gave a little insight to the 3 species that I have kept!

[Lennie]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:15 PM, jwcarlson said:

I've only been keeping apistos for a matter of months, but would agree that the tank is a bit on the smaller side.  I've seen a lot of suggestions on the internet for spawning a pair of apistos in a 10 gallon tank and having a few pairs now... I cannot wrap my head around that being possible.  I suppose if you spawn them and then pull the male it might work.  But in terms of long-term living, I cannot imagine a pair cohabitating in a 10 gallon without a bad ending.  Even a 29 seems a bit small.  Though all I have is Hongsloi, so unsure if that's because they're a bit bigger?  But I also understand that they are a less aggressive variety than some others.  

That's about all I've got to offer.  I have two man made caves for each pair.  Male seems to only enter them during spawn or on other "random" infrequent occasions.  The driftwood in all of my tanks also offer at least one and as many as 2 or 3 small caves.  When you're picking it out from the store, keep an eye for that.  I think I might move to at least one cut in half flower pot in each tank because the man made caves are very small.  The male hongsloi really have to try hard to get in them which always makes me worry.  

They'll ram into small holes though... here's one of my pairs during a spawn (about 57 seconds in if this doesn't go right to it):

 

They look amazing! 🥰

What I get confused about is, do they noticably use the height? Because although this tank does not carry too much gallons due to being short, the length and width sounded good to me as it is pretty close to 20gL, just a bit shorter in height and lower in lenght but same width 🤔

Height of the tank adds a lot to the gallons as you know. Otherwise, if this tank had the same height of 20L, it would be only around 4g/20 Liters difference between the tanks! 29g shares the same baseline too.

Very beautiful fish you have there dude. 

On 3/27/2023 at 9:15 PM, NOLANANO said:

I unfortunately never got my Apistos to breed so I may not be much help. I can just tell you what I observed with the 3 species that I have kept.

I found that trifasciata (I think thats how its spelled) need a harem because of how aggressive they are with the females. Not hurting them physically but never really leaving them alone.

My Macmasteri was much more chill but I am not convinced that the female the LFS sold me was another Macmasteri, I kind of think it was a cacatuoides female. The two got along just fine but the Male never really tried to make advances on the female.

The Borelli was my favorite but the poor little guy never had a real shot due to my ignorance.  First I had him and his female with a pair of GBRs and he hid most of the time but when he and his female were out, He would display for her quite a bit. Not nearly as aggressive as the trifasciata but definitely more interested than my Macmasteri (which is why I started to look into the species of the female). Then I had him the tank with the Macmasteri which eventually led me to return him to the LFS.

At the moment, I don't have any Apistos and I feel like its because I would want a small group similar to how I keep GBRs (2M and 3-5F) but my LFS usually only gets a pair in at a time or they get 1M with several F.  To me the most interesting part of dwarf cichlids is watching them interact with each other and set territories and such. I just don't feel like I get that full experience with only a single male. 

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful but I hope I at least gave a little insight to the 3 species that I have kept!

Thanks for sharing your experience with me 🙂 Hearing about experiences is really important to me

I agree that borelliis look very beautiful. I'm leaning towards them a lot too!!

[Fish Folk]

Softer water is probably a good call. I’d mix in R. O. if I had it. Although not essential, I’d prefer a lot of leaf litter and botanicals. This site is where I’d look first, read some articles, etc.

Audio quality is poor, but this interview is a good place to begin learning.

If you can get some small Pencilfish, they’re a nice dither for Apistos. I would avoid any plecos or Corydoras.

Apistogramma agassizii are beautiful…

[jwcarlson]

Mine use the height when they're getting away from aggression.  While it's not a warzone like some cichlids can get, they're definitely times when they're not wanting to be around each other.  

When they're getting ready to spawn they're hanging out near each other pretty consistently.  When the female isn't ready (in nature) he kind of drives her away.  When we constrict their movement with a tank, they can't do that.  So she's got to go *somewhere* and up it is.  When the female is with her spawn, she will chase the male away.  Again, in nature... he has more/less unlimited space to escape her aggression.  In a tank, they seem to go "up".  The hongsloi I have seem to take a hint and kind of self space themselves when their partner isn't enthusiastic about their company.  I wouldn't say that the top 1/3 of my tanks are well used, but I would say that it's used almost as a safety device.  At some point there wouldn't be enough space for the aggressor to feel like they've successfully kept the fish away from the area.  Now, you might find that it's not a big deal and it just kind of scales to what they're in.  I have no experience.  Mine are in a 29 and two pairs in a 55 (with divider, so about 24" wide, so a little smaller than a 29 in that regard).  I'm thinking about changing these to 30 breeders or whatever the 30 gallon longs are called, specifically for more footprint.  Which would (I think) limit the need for the extra height by nature of having additional lateral space.

 

Again, to be clear, I have only kept hongsloi and only for a few months.  Take my information with a grain of salt.  Your tank's footprint is better than a 10 gallon, but I'm not convinced that footprint is necessarily the only part that matters.  Mine will even eat from the surface and it's certainly not because they're starving, I feed them like kings/queens. 😄  You asked if they're active... I would say mine move a lot, but they're not like tetras zipping around endlessly.  They seem curious and I would say that they move with purpose.  The male will almost always present himself to the female if she is in his sight.  But if she's hiding out or away from him.  He'll prowl around the tank and check out stuff.  Baby brine shrimp they haven't eaten yet, snails on the glass or wood... they'll even eat snail eggs.  And they're constantly sifting sand.  Not like a geophagias, but they move quite a bit of sand around. 

 

 

 

Forgot to add these... even if you're not getting either of these species, I think you cannot go wrong treating yourself to a viewing or ten of @Lowells Fish Lab's apistogramma breeding videos.  Or, indeed... ANY of his videos.  They're absolutely incredible and wildly informative!

[Lennie]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:42 PM, Fish Folk said:

Softer water is probably a good call. I’d mix in R. O. if I had it. Although not essential, I’d prefer a lot of leaf litter and botanicals. This site is where I’d look first, read some articles, etc.

Audio quality is poor, but this interview is a good place to begin learning.

If you can get some small Pencilfish, they’re a nice dither for Apistos. I would avoid any plecos or Corydoras.

Apistogramma agassizii are beautiful…

will read/watch those! thanks for the recommendations

I have catappa leaves and alder cones on hand, I use them in all of my tanks! I assume those would be enough?

That fish looks great.

You guys make me want them more by sharing lots of beauties aaa

 

On 3/27/2023 at 9:44 PM, jwcarlson said:

Mine use the height when they're getting away from aggression.  While it's not a warzone like some cichlids can get, they're definitely times when they're not wanting to be around each other.  

When they're getting ready to spawn they're hanging out near each other pretty consistently.  When the female isn't ready (in nature) he kind of drives her away.  When we constrict their movement with a tank, they can't do that.  So she's got to go *somewhere* and up it is.  When the female is with her spawn, she will chase the male away.  Again, in nature... he has more/less unlimited space to escape her aggression.  In a tank, they seem to go "up".  The hongsloi I have seem to take a hint and kind of self space themselves when their partner isn't enthusiastic about their company.  I wouldn't say that the top 1/3 of my tanks are well used, but I would say that it's used almost as a safety device.  At some point there wouldn't be enough space for the aggressor to feel like they've successfully kept the fish away from the area.  Now, you might find that it's not a big deal and it just kind of scales to what they're in.  I have no experience.  Mine are in a 29 and two pairs in a 55 (with divider, so about 24" wide, so a little smaller than a 29 in that regard).  I'm thinking about changing these to 30 breeders or whatever the 30 gallon longs are called, specifically for more footprint.  Which would (I think) limit the need for the extra height by nature of having additional lateral space.

 

Again, to be clear, I have only kept hongsloi and only for a few months.  Take my information with a grain of salt.  Your tank's footprint is better than a 10 gallon, but I'm not convinced that footprint is necessarily the only part that matters.  Mine will even eat from the surface and it's certainly not because they're starving, I feed them like kings/queens. 😄  You asked if they're active... I would say mine move a lot, but they're not like tetras zipping around endlessly.  They seem curious and I would say that they move with purpose.  The male will almost always present himself to the female if she is in his sight.  But if she's hiding out or away from him.  He'll prowl around the tank and check out stuff.  Baby brine shrimp they haven't eaten yet, snails on the glass or wood... they'll even eat snail eggs.  And they're constantly sifting sand.  Not like a geophagias, but they move quite a bit of sand around. 

 

 

 

Forgot to add these... even if you're not getting either of these species, I think you cannot go wrong treating yourself to a viewing or ten of @Lowells Fish Lab's apistogramma breeding videos.  Or, indeed... ANY of his videos.  They're absolutely incredible and wildly informative!

Thanks!! I will watch these videos for sure.

I have a time a head to consider and make lots of research of them, so these infos and videos are all great for me. I don't wanna rush it directly

[anewbie]

Macs are similar to hongsloi - being a larger fish that is quasi pair forming and less aggression between male/female.

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I'm confused why your kh is 20 and your gh is 0; something sounds wrong or artifical. Perhaps kh is 20ppm and not 20 degrees? That would make more sense which means you have extremely soft tap; but then why is your ph 8 - again that could be an additive. Did you let the water sit overnight before testing ph?

-

From the species you listed and size of your aquarium borelli is your best bet but it is a risk that comes down to the aggression level of individuals and how you scape the aquarium - using lots of leaves is helpful because the fishes will hide under them - as well as control the water chemistry.

[Lennie]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:28 PM, anewbie said:

I'm confused why your kh is 20 and your gh is 0; something sounds wrong or artifical. Perhaps kh is 20ppm and not 20 degrees? That would make more sense which means you have extremely soft tap; but then why is your ph 8 - again that could be an additive. Did you let the water sit overnight before testing ph?

Due to water softener system. It removes all gh from the tap. We got it in the home after I quit hobby, and after years I've decided to come back. So now I have to work with what I have, which is fine. I just need to dose Equilibrium. If there is any salt, it should be minimal I bet, cause I keep shrimp, mystery/rabbit/ramshorn/MTs snails with no issues.

On 3/27/2023 at 10:28 PM, anewbie said:

From the species you listed and size of your aquarium borelli is your best bet but it is a risk that comes down to the aggression level of individuals and how you scape the aquarium - using lots of leaves is helpful because the fishes will hide under them - as well as control the water chemistry.

I can scape it in a way they would enjoy the most. I have lots of plants I can use including a big echinodorus leopard. I can introduce alder cones and indian almond leaves.

My RO already reads low ph around 6ish and low kh as well, so I can just use it, or mix it. Normally in my tanks, I use %50 tap %50 RO during water changes.

[Lennie]

Visited lfs today and got the pictures of the ones I liked. That part of the store is super shiny so I tried blocking some light my hand. Not even close to be successful 🤣

Yellowish ones are females in general I guess, right?

Apisto Agas. alenquer:

I loooved the male on right😍

Borellii:

Elizabethae:

Hongsloi: too densely planted tank, only could take a pic of one

@anewbie @tolstoy21 @jwcarlson @Fish Folk

[jwcarlson]

That's a pretty good selection, IMO.  I've never even seen a live apistogramma outside of my house (or a dead one, for that matter).  

The Borellii look pretty nice to me.  Since I think that's the best fit for your tank, I think I'd go with those if they appeal well to you.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:48 PM, jwcarlson said:

That's a pretty good selection, IMO.  I've never even seen a live apistogramma outside of my house.  

The Borellii look pretty nice to me.  Since I think that's the best fit for your tank, I think I'd go with those if they appeal well to you.  

They are all so pretty!

I was with a friend who is not a fishkeeper. She is like,, these look pretty boring, why do you even want them?  Get something colorful 🤣

Why is alenquer so expensive? Are they rare or something? Borellii is less than half of the price of alenquers. Hongsloi and elizabethae are same price, in the middle.

 

[jwcarlson]

I couldn't guess as to why they're more expensive, honestly.  Difficulty in breeding, perhaps?  But that's just another way of saying they're rare.

Your friend thought the apistos weren't colorful?!  Is she still your friend? 😄 😄

Edited March 28, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:55 PM, jwcarlson said:

Your friend thought the apistos weren't colorful?!  Is she still your friend? 😄 😄

😄😄 FOR NOW. She said, If they have given me these apistos for free, I would decline. ?!?!!!

I see her point. She expects something colorful in a level of neon tetra or similar flashy look. Which is def not my type at all 😄 

On 3/28/2023 at 6:55 PM, jwcarlson said:

I couldn't guess as to why they're more expensive, honestly.  Difficulty in breeding, perhaps?  But that's just another way of saying they're rare.

Maybe!

Maybe tolstoy or anewbie has an idea about this part.

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:51 AM, Lennie said:

They are all so pretty!

I was with a friend who is not a fishkeeper. She is like,, these look pretty boring, why do you even want them?  Get something colorful 🤣

Why is alenquer so expensive? Are they rare or something? Borellii is less than half of the price of alenquers. Hongsloi and elizabethae are same price, in the middle.

 

Just a market thing and possibly an import cost; they are typically the same price unless wc - you could check if they are wc.

 

The problem is your aquarium is very small so the only one i would even consider of those is the borelli and that is pushing the limit of what your aquarium can handle. I've not seen opal with yellow fin before (typically the opal have blue fins); i am curious if any of these are wc or if they are all line bred and if line bred where they were imported from. WC borelli and agasizzi can be spectacular. The borelli is also very adaptable to temp and water conditions - it is typically a white water fish. If you get a pair you will have to keep a close eye on them during the breeding cycle and make sure yo have hiding places in your aquarium (a cave is not a hiding area).

 

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 7:32 PM, anewbie said:

Just a market thing and possibly an import cost; they are typically the same price unless wc - you could check if they are wc.

 

The problem is your aquarium is very small so the only one i would even consider of those is the borelli and that is pushing the limit of what your aquarium can handle. I've not seen opal with yellow fin before (typically the opal have blue fins); i am curious if any of these are wc or if they are all line bred and if line bred where they were imported from. WC borelli and agasizzi can be spectacular. The borelli is also very adaptable to temp and water conditions - it is typically a white water fish. If you get a pair you will have to keep a close eye on them during the breeding cycle and make sure yo have hiding places in your aquarium (a cave is not a hiding area).

 

There was also a pure metallic blue/grey one in the borelli tank. A male. I couldn't see anything like that when I googled too. Basically a borellii, but full metalic blue. No yellows! You can see it on left on that picture, but blurry.

On 3/28/2023 at 7:32 PM, anewbie said:

I've not seen opal with yellow fin before (typically the opal have blue fins)

Aquaticarts tank bred ones also have yellow fins! There are many with yellow fins when I googled too. I haven't noticed till you mentioned it. 

I don't think any of them are wildcaught to be honest. They were getting all of their apistos  from european breeders if I am not wrong, that is why they are expensive I bet. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lennie

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 7:32 PM, anewbie said:

The problem is your aquarium is very small so the only one i would even consider of those is the borelli and that is pushing the limit of what your aquarium can handle. I've not seen opal with yellow fin before (typically the opal have blue fins); i am curious if any of these are wc or if they are all line bred and if line bred where they were imported from. WC borelli and agasizzi can be spectacular. The borelli is also very adaptable to temp and water conditions - it is typically a white water fish. If you get a pair you will have to keep a close eye on them during the breeding cycle and make sure yo have hiding places in your aquarium (a cave is not a hiding area).

Well, I can put them in my 50cube tank too. Would it be a better choice?

But it is a community tank and will make breeding pretty hard I bet. Also a pair may bully the tank mates??

That tank has a mystery snail, 4 red lizard whiptails, 5 rosy barbs, 16 pygmy cories. Tannins and heavily planted:

The other tank I recently set up. 100cmx40x40. 160liters/42 gallon approximately. This one will have 3 SAE, 1 L199 pleco, 3 black blue rams (1m:2f), honey gourami, 5 sterbai corys and 9 rummy noses moved into. I am taking their original tank down.

I haven't considered this one as most people said don't keep rams and apistos together.

 

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:56 AM, Lennie said:

Well, I can put them in my 50cube tank too. Would it be a better choice?

But it is a community tank and will make breeding pretty hard I bet. Also a pair may bully the tank mates??

That tank has a mystery snail, 4 red lizard whiptails, 5 rosy barbs, 16 pygmy cories. Tannins and heavily planted:

The other tank I recently set up. 100cmx40x40. 160liters/42 gallon approximately. This one will have 3 SAE, 1 L199 pleco, 3 black blue rams (1m:2f), honey gourami, 5 sterbai corys and 9 rummy noses moved into. I am taking their original tank down.

I haven't considered this one as most people said don't keep rams and apistos together.

 

Rams are pair forming; once a pair forms the other two will gang up and likely kill the third.

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 7:58 PM, anewbie said:

Rams are pair forming; once a pair forms the other two will gang up and likely kill the third.

They are very small as of now. I can seperate them if needed. I have two extra tanks not setup and one 10g tub that can be established anytime. That's not an issue.

I just wonder if they would be a better choice to be kept in one of these community tanks rather than the tank I got recently considering potential breeding and tankmates.

I believe their own special tank is still the way to go. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lennie

[NOLANANO]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:58 AM, anewbie said:

Rams are pair forming; once a pair forms the other two will gang up and likely kill the third.

I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. Sure that's definitely a possibility (maybe a strong one) but I had a pair of GBRs with a lone female in my tank before and they coexisted. The lone female definitely wasn't as happy as the pair but they didn't kill her. It was a heavily planted 75G so there was room to escape.

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2023 at 12:13 PM, NOLANANO said:

I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. Sure that's definitely a possibility (maybe a strong one) but I had a pair of GBRs with a lone female in my tank before and they coexisted. The lone female definitely wasn't as happy as the pair but they didn't kill her. It was a heavily planted 75G so there was room to escape.

Yes of course it depends on a lot of factor but generally speaking they will not like her very much and depending on individual aggression level she might be able to escape or she might not but either way she will be stressed and live a shorten life. So i will rephrase it is a combination that in general doesn't work out well.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:54 AM, anewbie said:

If i did the conversion correctly your aquarium is somewhere between 10 and 15 so quite small with 12 inch wide and 20 inches long so it is quite small for many of these species. Experience breeders can breed them via adding the fishes and then removing the male.

On 3/27/2023 at 10:25 AM, Lennie said:

55cmx33cmx21

Tank is 21x12x8" tall in terms of inches.

In terms of footprint I think that's right between a 10G and 15G aquarium with a different height.

The biggest question is whether or not there's enough floorspace and enough height. I don't know the answer to that! In terms of water volume it's 40L or just over 10G. 

I assume water changes aren't a concern or issue, but the question just being is that space for a pair adequate? Especially if like you're saying the male is moved out of the tank when need be?

I have read through all the replies above, wanted to share the dimensions/converted and ask those questions.

@anewbie

For the setup you mentioned can it be setup like a ram tank with a wall on 3 sides as opposed to a cave or do they specifically need a ceiling?

Is it an ok setup for a 3-4" pair of fish as opposed to a 6" fish? I believe that's the size for apisto, but as I said I'm just hear to learn!

I think the goal for Lennie is to have a tank dedicated for them and that can easily be made blackwater or lower PH for that breeding without causing issues in his other tanks.

@tolstoy21ccan you share some of your setups as well!? I know you have some awesome stuff. I saw some fishroom photos but nothing specific in terms of breeding setups.  Did see the video of the apisto swimming in and out of the skull 🙂 .

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Tank is 21x12x8" tall in terms of inches.

In terms of footprint I think that's right between a 10G and 15G aquarium with a different height.

That's what I said way near the top - well i didn't give the dimension but noted the size between 10/15.

On 3/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The biggest question is whether or not there's enough floorspace and enough height. I don't know the answer to that! In terms of water volume it's 40L or just over 10G. 

I assume water changes aren't a concern or issue, but the question just being is that space for a pair adequate? Especially if like you're saying the male is moved out of the tank when need be?

The problem is aggression level between m/f so the floor space is the problem - i named one species that will work (i have mine in a 10) and the only other species i would consider are borelli but that is pushing it.

On 3/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I have read through all the replies above, wanted to share the dimensions/converted and ask those questions.

@anewbie

For the setup you mentioned can it be setup like a ram tank with a wall on 3 sides as opposed to a cave or do they specifically need a ceiling?

Is it an ok setup for a 3-4" pair of fish as opposed to a 6" fish? I believe that's the size for apisto, but as I said I'm just hear to learn!

The problem is enough space to handle aggression between m/f - they need to be able to escape from each other or one will die.

On 3/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think the goal for Lennie is to have a tank dedicated for them and that can easily be made blackwater or lower PH for that breeding without causing issues in his other tanks.

@tolstoy21ccan you share some of your setups as well!? I know you have some awesome stuff. I saw some fishroom photos but nothing specific in terms of breeding setups.  Did see the video of the apisto swimming in and out of the skull 🙂 .