I think one of my black kuhli loaches has Columnaris

[KittenFishMom]

I haven't been able to get a photo. The black kuhli loach won't stop swimming. I think it has Columnaris because it has small pale patches on its back that are bigger than ich dots and are in-line with the skin. The black Kuhli loach is very active, like the other 2, and has been since I spotted the patches about 2 am with a flashlight.

Current water parms:

temp 73

Ammonia 0

Nitrate 0

Nitrite 0

hardness (GH)ppm  75< x < 150

buffer (KH)ppm 40

ph 6.6

Before water change hardness and buffer close to 0, ph < 6.4

I use RO/DI water with equilibrium and alkaline buffer and acid buffer dissolved in the water.

Tank size 55 gallon, heavily planted with organic potting soil under sand cap.

3 HOB, 3 air stones and a large sponge filter.

I cleaned upper filters in 3 HOBs and intake filter in one in hopes to keep tank cycled.

7 neon adult tetras, 3 young hillstream loaches, 3 adult kuhli loaches, LOTS of snails. ramshorn, bladder, mystery.

The tank got cloudy about a week ago, about 2 weeks after adding the hillstream loaches. I removed a large soft piece of driftwood and added an HOB with floss to help clear the water.

I didn't quarantine the hillstream loaches because their breeder thought they would do better in the big tank rather than a 10 gallon QT and hadn't had new fish in a long time. 

I found the Jungle fizz tablets, but the kanaplex was not in my fish Rx tote. I have ordered more from Amazon, that will arrive Tuesday. I will keep looking for mine while the other ships.

Should I start the jungle fizz now or wait to get a photo for more accurate diagnosis?

Please let me know what you think. @Colu and @nabokovfan87 and anyone else who might know how to better ID 

P.S. I added 10 or so IALs after the water change, spread out over the tank.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by KittenFishMom

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/26/2023 at 6:51 PM, KittenFishMom said:

Should I start the jungle fizz now or wait to get a photo for more accurate diagnosis?

Sorry it's been a busy day! 

If you feel confident, yes you can start the tabs, but it isn't going to make a big difference if you start them not vs. later.  The tabs are for fungus, secondary infections.  They do have some bacterial meds in there as well.  It takes a lot to treat it, especially given the size of the tank here.  I don't know how many you have one hand.

the other thing you can consider is salt.  Given the fish involved needs a bit of a lighter dose of salt, I would opt for the 1/4 cup per 10G ratio (lowest level) and this should be safe for everything in the tank.

If @Odd Duck or @Colu have a better direction for salt in this situation by all means.  I will also CC @Chick-In-Of-TheSea as she's dealt a lot with this and we were discussing her thread and photos previously.

It isn't uncommon for adding say another species of tetra (or loach) and seeing issues on an existing colony. 

I would dose in salt, then use the tabs / kanaplex together.  For now, try to get a good photo and we'll wait for Colu/OD to reply here.  The biggest thing is going to be getting a video or photo so we can ID it or at least have an idea of what's going on.

Is the wound fuzzy at all?  Is it smooth or protruding from the body of the fish?

[KittenFishMom]

@nabokovfan87 The wound is not fuzzy or protruding. The loaches don't have scales. So I wondered if that would effect the dosing. I have aquarium salt. It is 12:30 am. I think I will wait until morning when I am more awake, and less likely to get something mixed up. Also, I might get a photo, or hear from other folks.

Thanks for taking time to answer this. Now I can head to bed.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Make sure you do not share equipment between tanks and wash your hands between tanks. I would isolate all of the sick fish to a quarantine tank or bucket and then medicate so it doesn’t spread further.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

With columnaris you get white patches on the back white lips that can turn into mouth rot it spread more quickly at higher temperatures and can kill your fish anywhere from 24hr to 7days depending on the strain  if you can get a picture that would be great what I would do is a course of jungal fungus clear fizz tabs containing nitrofurazone now and add some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons at that level it shouldn't harm your plants and it will aid Gill function and add essential electrolytes till the kanaplex arrives it's always possible that your kuhli loach injured it's self and it doesn't have columnaris I would always air on the side of caution if your fish have white patches follow up with this treatment plan @KittenFishMom

Edited March 27, 2023 by Colu

[KittenFishMom]

@Colu I bought enough Rx to dose the 55 tank, rather than try to catch the kuhli loach. They are not out yet today, but I will continue to try to get a photo.

I can turn the temp down in all the tanks. I have not been careful about washing my hands between tanks. I was also transffering corys from the 55 to 1 of the 15 until I saw the patches on the kuhli loach. then I stoppped, but the nets was in both tanks multiple times.

What would be a good temp to aim at?  I have hillstream loaches and neon tetras and peppered cory fry in with the kuhli loach in the 55 tank. Dream blue shrimp and 2 or 3 cory fry in a 10 gallon tank, corys and a betta in one 15 tank and corys in another 15 gallon tank. all have snails.

Should I tell the breeder who is taking my corys and who sold me the hillstreams? I think it came from the hillstreams. I got them the day she picked up cory fry. I don't want to blame her if it didn't come from her. I also don't want her to be caught by surprise if it came from my tanks. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by KittenFishMom

[Colu]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:42 PM, KittenFishMom said:

@Colu I bought enough Rx to dose the 55 tank, rather than try to catch the kuhli loach. They are not out yet today, but I will continue to try to get a photo.

I can turn the temp down in all the tanks. I have not been careful about washing my hands between tanks. What would be a good temp to aim at?  I have hillstream loaches and neon tetras and peppered cory fry in with the kuhli loach in the 55 tank. Dream blue shrimp and 2 or 3 cory fry in a 10 gallon tank, corys and a betta in one 15 tank and corys in another 15 gallon tank. all have snails.

With columnaris a temperature below 75 slows spread but  I wouldn't go below 75 with kuhli loach  depending of the species of hillstream loach you can keep them at 65-80 the bacteria that cause columnaris is always in the your tank it's time of stress or poor water quality that weaken there immune system is when you get outbreaks it doesn't necessarily mean your Cory's are inflected that you give the breeder or the hillstream loach were the carrier's I would have separate nets and buckets for each tank if you can and steriliser them with a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Colu

[KittenFishMom]

Thank you so much for explaining that it shows up at times of stress. I was blaming myself for not quarantining the hillstream loaches.

@Colu I stopped moving fish when I saw the patches.

[Colu]

On 3/27/2023 at 4:03 PM, KittenFishMom said:

Thank you so much for explaining that it shows up at times of stress. I was blaming myself for not quarantining the hillstream loaches.

@Colu I stopped moving fish when I saw the patches.

It could be the hillstream loach are stressing the khuli loach in a 55 gallon their should be plenty of room for the two species 

[Odd Duck]

I think @Colu and others have covered things well. Light salt dose as recommended (tablespoon per 5 gallons) is good and should be safe enough for loaches/scaleless fish, plants, shrimp, and snails.  Pics or video as soon as you can get them.  It really helps with being able to make smart recommendations. 

[KittenFishMom]

@Colu and @nabokovfan87 and @Odd Duck and @Chick-In-Of-TheSea and everyone else, My husband caught the kuhli loaches on a video and 2 photos. Sorry the glass is so dirty. 

What does it look like to you?

 

[Colu]

On 3/30/2023 at 6:34 AM, KittenFishMom said:

@Colu and @nabokovfan87 and @Odd Duck and @Chick-In-Of-TheSea and everyone else, My husband caught the kuhli loaches on a video and 2 photos. Sorry the glass is so dirty. 

What does it look like to you?

 

Does look like columnaris it could also have badly scraped it back on something in the tank 

[nabokovfan87]

I don't know if that's normal activity or stress signs, but yeah, I'd go ahead with columnaris treatment. It will likely take at least 2 full treatments minimum.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:12 AM, Colu said:

it could also have badly scraped it back

It does look like scrapes, doesn't it?  Is there any sharp stone in there (such as lava rock)?

[KittenFishMom]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea and @Colu The only sharp thing in the tank is java moss on a metal grid from ACO. It has been there since my first ACO order. I bent it to put it over the dip in the driftwood. There is lava rock, but I am pretty sure it has all been tumbled. it is rounded like pebbles, only bigger, all curved, nothing straight or pointed. There are bio rings here and there. I have some big stone air stone in taller glass ponds.  Nothing new in months. Maybe it got traps under an air stone? 

@nabokovfan87 That is the way these loaches act when they are not hiding. Swimming in loopy circles. Another thing they tend to do is "toboggin" though the plants. They build up speed as they enter the plant. then stop swimming and straighten out and drop and slide though the plants.  Sometimes staying where they drift to a stop, other times doing it over and over again. Kind of like kids on a "slip n' slide" in the summer. The plant are very soft with small leaves. Maybe like diving into a pile of raked fall leaves. The plants are much too soft for it to be flashing. Something that is fun when they are looping to pull a dropper of live bbs in their path. Their head stops like they hit a wall and they body doesn't. It tend to swim past the head and flip the fish around. I think if it was stress behavior, they wouldn't stop short for the bbs. These guys will sleep, draped over a filter, or in a plant, but it seems like if they are awake and out, they are swimming in a loopy manner together. 

[KittenFishMom]

@nabokovfan87 I am doing the treatment. first water change lastnight.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:31 AM, KittenFishMom said:

Maybe like diving into a pile of raked fall leaves.

Makes sense!  Let us know how things go.

[KittenFishMom]

All the fish in the tank are acting very normal. I almost never see the kuhli loaches eat, so I don't know if they are refusing food. There is nothing "less active" about them. I am hoping it is some scrapes, but I will do a full treatment, just in case. I don't know how to guess if they will need a second treatment.

If I see them all out tonight in their corner of the tank, I will try to slip a frozen bbs ice cube back there without them noticing. I am pretty sure they will show interest in that if they find it before the other fish do. 

Also, if they are frightened, they tend to completely disappear for some time. I don't think they would all be swimming in lazy loops if they were stressed.

I heard recently that zoo animals that pace tend to cover the same distance as their wild counter parts do in a day.  This may just be what these fish are programmed to do to find enough food.

[Odd Duck]

The zipping around I call Kuhli zoomies and is normal behavior.  The skin is very hard to get a good look even on the video.  It could easily have started as scrapes because even tumbled, lava rock is rough.  Kuhlis like to hide under things and the fish could easily have scraped itself.  There’s one angle where it looks like the spots are a bit fuzzy, so I would continue the columnaris treatment, for sure.

It’s a good sign that the fish still wants to do the Kuhli zoomies.

[KittenFishMom]

@Odd Duck I looked closer at the tank and realized I never got around to adding the lava stone to that tank. (life got in the way.) I think the fuzziness is from the speed of the fish, just blurry. I have seen the fish stop a few time, but not for very long.I never noticed anything fuzzy. I will finish the treatment. I don't know how to tell if I need to repeat the treatment. 

There are tons of plants, including loads of java moss on the bottom of the tank, so they can hide in lots of places. If they feel safer hiding under something heavy, I'm sure they will. I won't put lava rock or dragon stone in the tank with them. Thanks for your help.

[Odd Duck]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:30 PM, KittenFishMom said:

@Odd Duck I looked closer at the tank and realized I never got around to adding the lava stone to that tank. (life got in the way.) I think the fuzziness is from the speed of the fish, just blurry. I have seen the fish stop a few time, but not for very long.I never noticed anything fuzzy. I will finish the treatment. I don't know how to tell if I need to repeat the treatment. 

There are tons of plants, including loads of java moss on the bottom of the tank, so they can hide in lots of places. If they feel safer hiding under something heavy, I'm sure they will. I won't put lava rock or dragon stone in the tank with them. Thanks for your help.

They don’t need anything heavy, but do like to have someplace they can hide completely vs. just at the base of plants for example.  If there’s no fuzzy, then very light salt and pristine water may be all you need to get the lesions to heal.  Salt at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons and make sure it doesn’t build up in the system - dose only the volume of replacement water during your water changes.  Monitor closely for changes either direction and if any worsening, start antibiotics immediately.

[KittenFishMom]

@Odd Duck Monitoring the kuhli loaches is like holding a angry oiled snake, but I will do my best.

[Odd Duck]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:14 AM, KittenFishMom said:

@Odd Duck Monitoring the kuhli loaches is like holding a angry oiled snake, but I will do my best.

You’re not wrong.  😆 

[KittenFishMom]

@Odd Duck I was looking over the tank again and I think I figured it out. I have 2 in rough round domed stone air stones that sit in the deep glass 'ponds" in my tank. They have a rather sharp edge when the dome meets the flat bottom. I put a bio ring under them so they would not sit flat against the glass. I wanted water to circulate around them. I bet the kuhli went under one and had trouble finding his way back out. They have both been replaced by plastic Never clog air stones. I'll finish the full medication plan.

It is funny how can look at an air stone and only see it as an air stone, when really it is a rough sharp stone too.