Medicating scaleless fish

[The endler guy]

Do everyone knows that you shouldn’t give the full dose of meds to scaleless fish, right?

 

wronge.

 

The thought is that because scaleless fish taken in through the skin and due to lack of scales more is taken in then scaled fish, this is wrong on SOOOOOO many levels 

 

1st: scaleless fish have thicker skin and thicker slime coat. Therefore if anything they would need MORE meds because it would be harder to takin 

1.5: many south American catfish have large bony plates 

2nd: medication isn’t taken in through the skin! They are taken in though the gills!

[Theplatymaster]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:09 AM, The endler guy said:

Do everyone knows that you shouldn’t give the full dose of meds to scaleless fish, right?

 

wronge.

 

The thought is that because scaleless fish taken in through the skin and due to lack of scales more is taken in then scaled fish, this is wrong on SOOOOOO many levels 

 

1st: scaleless fish have thicker skin and thicker slime coat. Therefore if anything they would need MORE meds because it would be harder to takin 

1.5: many south American catfish have large bony plates 

2nd: medication isn’t taken in through the skin! They are taken in though the gills!

this makes sense, thank you for educating us

However people treat cories with normal meds all the time,they are armored catfish,  its when you get into loaches that people get concerned about.

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:12 AM, Theplatymaster said:

this makes sense, thank you for educating us

However people treat cories with normal meds all the time,they are armored catfish,  its when you get into loaches that people get concerned about.

And from what I’ve heard the majority of people don’t meditate differently, it’s just good to remember the difference between a rumor and fact!

[Lennie]

I believe there must be a scientific base for this. It is recommended by seachem to start dosing lower amount of medicine in scaleless fish tanks too. the also classify scaleless fish as a category in their safety dosage charts . Idk about other medicine.

I don't think a company may depend their instruction on a humor, but I may be wrong. It just makes no sense in that way.

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 8:56 AM, Lennie said:

I believe there must be a scientific base for this. It is recommended by seachem to start dosing lower amount of medicine in scaleless fish tanks too. the also classify scaleless fish as a category in their safety dosage charts . Idk about other medicine.

I don't think a company may depend their instruction on a humor, but I may be wrong. It just makes no sense in that way.

Actually there is plenty of scientific sources that support the info

[Lennie]

On 3/21/2023 at 5:40 PM, The endler guy said:

Actually there is plenty of scientific sources that support the info

No I meant a base for seperating them from other normal freshwater community fish. An aspect, whether something you mentioned here or maybe something different.

Like everything in this table needs to make some sort of sense to be seperate from "freshwater community" right?

As an example:

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015544794-FAQ-Can-I-use-Seachem-ParaGuard-in-a-tank-where-I-m-keeping-

I'm just thinking out loud

Edited March 21, 2023 by Lennie

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:43 AM, Lennie said:

No I meant a base for seperating them from other normal freshwater community fish. An aspect, whether something you mentioned here or maybe something different.

Like everything in this table needs to make some sort of sense to be seperate from "freshwater community" right?

As an example:

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015544794-FAQ-Can-I-use-Seachem-ParaGuard-in-a-tank-where-I-m-keeping-

I'm just thinking out loud

I understand what you are saying but it could be the company covering their behind

[Cory]

I myself also only ever treat the full dose. If a disease could be treated with less medication in the water, that would be the normal dose. The type of scales a fish has doesn't affect the potency of meds in my experience.

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:02 PM, Cory said:

I myself also only ever treat the full dose. If a disease could be treated with less medication in the water, that would be the normal dose. The type of scales a fish has doesn't affect the potency of meds in my experience.

I was thinking about this due to @BlueLineAquaticsSCissues with their lungfish, but due to the fact that meds are taken in through the gills, how would you medicate fish without gills? (ie. Adult lungfish)

[Biotope Biologist]

Some medication is absorbed through the skin. For insight most fish medicines are just human medicines scaled down significantly and changed to perform in an aqueous environment. 
 

I agree though that I don’t think scales affect skin absorption of medicine that is meant to treat dermal parasites or infection. The thinking is likely that scaleless fish are more sensitive to the medication and need to take it at a lower dosage.
 

I found one article that said scaleless fish absorb significantly more metals from the environment than scaled fish. There are some metal based medications perhaps those ones specifically carry the warning for scaleless fish. It’s intriguing. The article I found was in Hindi though so hopefully my google translate was working.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Biotope Biologist

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:47 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Some medication is absorbed through the skin. For insight most fish medicines are just human medicines scaled down significantly and changed to perform in an aqueous environment. 
 

I agree though that I don’t think scales affect skin absorption of medicine that is meant to treat dermal parasites or infection. The thinking is likely that scaleless fish are more sensitive to the medication and need to take it at a lower dosage.
 

I found one article that said scaleless fish absorb significantly more metals from the environment than scaled fish. There are some metal based medications perhaps those ones specifically carry the warning for scaleless fish. It’s intriguing. The article I found was in Hindi though so hopefully my google translate was working.

Yes it is true that there is different intakes of medicine (it really depends)

“Note that almost all authors and experts on the aquarium caution about using medications with scale-less fish such as plecos, corydoras and loaches. But this “sensitivity” is not supported anywhere in the scientific literature. All the millions of dollars of aquaculture research done on catfish and medications has shown no increased sensitivity to medications.

This myth probably started when someone somewhere in the distant past thought that medications are absorbed through the skin of a fish. The next step in this line of logic is that because scaled fish have thicker skins, they will resist overdoses of medications better than a fish without scales. And the final step in this line of logic is that scaleless fishes need lower doses of medications.”

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/12-1-basics-of-treatment/

[Biotope Biologist]

I have a few nitpicks on aquariumscience.

 

First corydoras and plecos do have scales. Scutes are modified scales. It is wrong to say they are scaleless. 
 

Second I literally just found a scientific article that states metals are absorbed in scaleless fish in significantly larger concentrations. The article references two commonly farmed food fish in India. Important to know if people are ingesting medicines provided to these fish. They found that it accumulates in the gills, muscle, skin, and liver of the fish. 
 

Third fish with scales do not have thicker skin. If anything the reverse would be true. But I believe scaleless fish use an increased mucus membrane to cope with infection and external parasites.

 

I always offer a word of caution when reading his articles. Scientists who pervert information to prove their correctness worry me. 
 

And I am not saying anyone here is wrong. I do believe that the medicine companies may be covering themselves based on real science from the aquaculture industry. It is rather hard to say that we shouldn’t treat at full dosage because very few people here keep species only tanks. If you have a mix of scaled and scaleless fish you are attempting to treat, I would definitely say treat whats indicated on the package. 

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 1:41 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

 

Second I literally just found a scientific article that states metals are absorbed in scaleless fish in significantly larger concentrations. The article references two commonly farmed food fish in India. Important to know if people are ingesting medicines provided to these fish. They found that it accumulates in the gills, muscle, skin, and liver of the fish. 
 

i mean it could be correlation not causation, as many scalless fish are benthic feeders and due to that can bioaccumulate metals in higher concentrations

On 3/21/2023 at 1:41 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

 

 

First corydoras and plecos do have scales. Scutes are modified scales. It is wrong to say they are scaleless. 
 

 

one defining characteristic of catfish is the lack of scales, in sturgeon for example the scoots are modified scales, but not in catfish

[The endler guy]

they are similar to sharks in the sense that they dont have scales

the increased mucus membrane is to compensate for the lack of scales 

[Biotope Biologist]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:55 AM, The endler guy said:

i mean it could be correlation not causation, as many scalless fish are benthic feeders and due to that can bioaccumulate metals in higher concentrations

I don’t think so. The metals were added to the pools that these fish were in and would have dissolved into the water. The scaled fish tested was carp which also has a tendency to ingest whatever they come across.
 

On 3/21/2023 at 11:55 AM, The endler guy said:

one defining characteristic of catfish is the lack of scales, in sturgeon for example the scoots are modified scales, but not in catfish

So it’s very interesting when we start talking about orders of fish. Siluriforms are recognized as “catfish” and are generally considered scaleless but an exception appears when talking about scutes in corydoras and loricariidae where we consider these modified appendages part of the bony structure. As scientists we have to make concessions and I will do so as well. It’s easier to just call them scutes even though they are “scale-like” modifications growing on the lateral line and dermal layer. Which by all definitions should be a “scale” but then we can’t classify that as a siluriform. It is not a part of their bony structure and for the most part the fish is “scale-less” but now we get into a very grey area. Because for all intents and purposes these “bony protrusions” act and appear to be modified scales. 
 

I encounter these peculiarities in my line of work all the time so I suppose I am fine conceding that plecos and corydoras are “scaleless” to fit into the box that is siluriforms. Although we have discovered several other siluriforms with modified scales on their lateral line. It’s similar to sculpins in my line of work. They are generally considered scaleless and any modified protrusion on their dermal surface is considered a “hook, hairy protrusion, spine, velcro like protrusion.” Semantics am I right 😋

[The endler guy]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:12 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

I don’t think so. The metals were added to the pools that these fish were in and would have dissolved into the water. The scaled fish tested was carp which also has a tendency to ingest whatever they come across.
 

huh, interesting I assume the metals aren't things like mercury or lead (due to their tendency not to dissolve) that is interesting, do you think you remember the name of the study? sounds interesting!

On 3/21/2023 at 4:12 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

 

So it’s very interesting when we start talking about orders of fish. Siluriforms are recognized as “catfish” and are generally considered scaleless but an exception appears when talking about scutes in corydoras and loricariidae where we consider these modified appendages part of the bony structure. As scientists we have to make concessions and I will do so as well. It’s easier to just call them scutes even though they are “scale-like” modifications growing on the lateral line and dermal layer. Which by all definitions should be a “scale” but then we can’t classify that as a siluriform. It is not a part of their bony structure and for the most part the fish is “scale-less” but now we get into a very grey area. Because for all intents and purposes these “bony protrusions” act and appear to be modified scales. 
 

darn convergent evolution strikes again! wouldn't that mean that medicating rays and sharks be the same as medicating traditionally scaled fish? (due to the fact they have similar scales to loricariids?) 

 

 

also can we step back a moment and just appreciate that elasmobranches and loricariids basically have a suite of armor made out of their teeth

[BlueLineAquaticsSC]

@The endler guyThanks for the shoutout, glad I got to read this thread, although I still don’t know where Tambi falls in being is a dedicated atmospheric oxygen breather with external gills and lungs 

[The endler guy]

On 3/22/2023 at 7:13 PM, BlueLineAquaticsSC said:

@The endler guyThanks for the shoutout, glad I got to read this thread, although I still don’t know where Tambi falls in being is a dedicated atmospheric oxygen breather with external gills and lungs 

I don’t know either, due to the fact that tambi is closer related to you and me then tambi is to other fish