Testing Redux: Fixing the Seachem Tidal Bypass

[nabokovfan87]

In case you missed it, here is the original thread:

I want to start off by specifying a few ground rules here and clarify, succinctly, about some of previous results here.

How to improve the Seachem Tidal Filters:
Phase 1 (No tools or permanent mods)
-Replace foams in the filter basket
-Verify basket is not overstuffed
-Remove air from media bag and tuck as much as possible
-Set flow down one "tick"

Phase 2 (Easy mods, no power tools needed)
-Requires All Phase 1 Mods
-Cut bottom grates of basket to improve input flow
-Seal basket "window" cutout and all small bypass holes in the filter basket

Phase 3 (Full mods, major change to how filter functions)
-Requires All Phase 2 and Phase 1 Mods
-Seal skimmer grate with silicone
-Seal pump housing grates with silicone
-Cut slots in bottom of Intake tube
-Add prefilter sponge
 

"What's the goal for this project now?" you might ask.....

The goal is that I need to verify things we tested previously on a larger filter.  This gives us a larger sample size, more information, and a different pump/impeller design to work with.  This also has some slight variations compared to the original mods.  I also plan to get the information for each phase of upgrades to be more clear and easier to reference for those interested.



This is one of the filters I originally did some testing with.  You'll see some remnants of that testing here. 

Holes in the base of the basket


Added Coarse - Medium - Fine Foams


Skimmer eating plants

Basket tab broke one me 😞


Here are some of the things we're going to use for the mods on this filter:

First, to clean everything, I use 91-99% Isopropyl Alcohol.  Before adding silicone on anything, it is usually recommended to remove oils and prep the surface this way.


For the more permanent mods:


I will go ahead and add more details here shortly with the mods completed.  Needless to say, we're basically ready to go any second now!

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by nabokovfan87
Removed Excess Photo

[Theplatymaster]

@nabokovfan87

cant wait!

im hoping for some good tips here, that i missed on the previous page.

[Theplatymaster]

@nabokovfan87

how many of these mods can work on a T35?

[nabokovfan87]

Posting this here for my own reference:  What it should sound like...
 

Plugged in the 75's today and it's been a long time since they've ran at all. One of the pumps was very unhappy and was pretty caked in detritus.  I will work on getting it clean, but the bristles on my impeller cleaner weren't stiff enough for this size of a pump.  I do have one spare, I can swap between the two, but I do need to figure out why they are both pretty loud.

On 3/20/2023 at 10:45 AM, Theplatymaster said:

how many of these mods can work on a T35?

On my tidal 35 I literally ONLY replaced the foams and I was pretty happy with it. Keep in mind that "bumpy foams" work inherently differently than the flat sided foams.  The ones I have fall apart a lot quicker than I'd like, but when it comes to the tidal 35 it has some flaws and some advantages.  I did go through that on the older thread, but I'm sure we can revisit that if need be when the time comes.  I do like that filter for SOME use cases, but when it comes to having fish in the tank, generally I don't.

I take a piece of fine foam and cover the window cutout.  This forces water to be "encouraged" to go elsewhere and that generally works if you don't have what you need to glue/seal/close up the bypass holes in the filter basket.  Details in that in the previous thread, but I do also have videos on youtube showing that full mod, I do believe with the tidal 35 as well.

For any tidal 35:
1. Replace the foams
2. Consider opening up the grates (which you did)
3. Consider covering the pump with large foam of some kind (video of this is in the older thread).
4. Consider closing up the basket "window cutout" and bypass slots or covering it with fine foam.

Beyond that, there's no point to close the skimmer (it does absolutely nothing) and there's not a lot of point to any of the other mods.

Edit: Here is where the older thread started to go through the Tidal 35 in detail a little bit more.

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by nabokovfan87
added link

[nabokovfan87]

Take it as a cautionary tale from a lot of trial and error.....

The noise on the filter, the filter being crazy loud I've isolated it to the magnets on the impellers on the old pump losing their strength and things grinding.  If you have an old filter that is generally "fine" and you have done the thorough cleaning and your certain that there isn't an impeller shaft wobble/wear issue, then you likely just need a new impeller.  I got the noise down a good, 40-60% by deep cleaning everything, but what concerned me was taking it apart and feeling the pump get warm.  Friction, somewhere....

I'll have to get some parts in to get things going and verify setup, but.... progress.  It has been a difficult challenge to try to fix the noise and isolate what is going on.  I think I took the filters apart 10-15 times in two days for various swapping of parts and assembling things back and forth between the two.  I couldn't figure out if it was the HoB plastics itself or if it was the pump or something else. 

Anyways.... that's all I got for you so far.   Maybe that helps someone with a weird filter issue they can't quite sort out.

[Theplatymaster]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:54 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The noise on the filter, the filter being crazy loud I've isolated it to the magnets on the impellers on the old pump losing their strength and things grinding.  If you have an old filter that is generally "fine" and you have done the thorough cleaning and your certain that there isn't an impeller shaft wobble/wear issue, then you likely just need a new impeller.  I got the noise down a good, 40-60% by deep cleaning everything, but what concerned me was taking it apart and feeling the pump get warm.  Friction, somewhere....

is this just for the tidals, or for other HOBs as well?

i have a Tetra Whisper filter, that works fine, it is just INCREDIBLY loud, and id like to be able to use it, but in a bedroom setup, my equipment needs to be pretty quiet.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:39 PM, Pepere said:

what is it about the Tidal 35 that is so valuable to invest all the time and effort to get itto work without needing to clean it 2-3 times a week without hopeless bypass issues?

Definitely not valuable in that sense!  I actually had the longest cleaning times on the 35 for cleaning out the tank (even crazy overstocked) and it worked well considering it's pretty basic flaws (no input).  The discussion on the 35 is basically just because I want to share experiences and to find a way to utilize if you do happen to have one.

On 3/21/2023 at 6:39 PM, Pepere said:

The Tidal will not go back in.  I will be done with it…It is more hassle than it is worth in my estimation.

Based on the past few days to get it running, I understand.   Out of the box it's a good filter, but long term it has some flaws I hope get addressed in some way.  For my own case, it's a bit more economical to get a tube of silicone than it is to go out and buy a bunch of new filters for all of my tanks.  I'd love to have a sump one day, probably will have a sicce pump in it, but for now.... it's just what I have and the point/goal is to figure out how to fix all of the issues as cleanly as I can.

On 3/21/2023 at 2:19 PM, Theplatymaster said:

is this just for the tidals, or for other HOBs as well?

Most filters use magnetic impellers (some use air).  I would argue it applies to everything.  The aquaclears have their own issue.
 

 

[nabokovfan87]

It's just before 1 AM here.  Usually about now I am relaxed, ready for bed.  Currently my hands are soaked and I've just been neck deep in 2-3 potential failures.  Part of the goal here is that I am honest with this process.  That I am clear about what is going on and that I am extremely open about the highs and lows of this project.

This is on the Tidal 55, this filter has been up and running for the sake of longevity with minor issues and a few quirks to work out.  We've had our SECOND major quirk.  (cc: @TeeJay please be sure to keep this in mind for yours)

Prior to moving the tank to it's current location a few weeks ago the plants were thriving.  Moving equipment there is always a risk of plant damage, especially when you're talking about moving fry and a large amount of fish.  My hope is that the plants themselves are healthy, but just have some damage.  I was losing 30-50 leaves per day following the move.  Not right away, but I was scraping a lot of leaves off the surface.  This is a perk of the skimmer mod, they weren't in the filter!

Ultimately, I moved the tank, moved the fish, the corydoras were going bonkers.  This isn't out of the ordinary given GH/KH swings and large water changes.  Breeding behavior.  I thought I was going to have eggs any day and this went on for a week or two.  Some plants didn't make it as a result.  I expected some losses because the fish were bigger, tank is cramped, resulting in a few bashed leaves.  No big deal, but 50 a day is a lot!

I am still going to chalk this up to plant damage, a variety of things compounding resulting in plant damage.  Right now, I can't assume anything else.  I am keeping up on dosing, lighting is dialed in, other plants (not on the bottom) are doing well, and the CO2 is working as best I can get it.  The location of the diffuser changed, which is also another big variable.

Before:


Today:


I walk into the room tonight to do some other work.  Previously in the day I was working on everything, topped up this tank in particular and it was something where I didn't see any issues.  Filters need to be cleaned, I considered cleaning the prefilters, but opted to leave it for now.  More work to be done elsewhere, basically.  I see a big red flashing light.  Temp is 77 deg on the heater and it's warning me.  I unplug it immediately and check the temp of the tank.  Feels very cold.  68 or so is what it feels like.  I went ahead and took it out, cleaned it and tossed it back into the tank.  Then I cleaned the spraybar, which had a little bit of algae in the holes. Flow was fine, but a little restricted.  I then pulled out the prefilters and cleaned those.  I wanted to make sure the pump was off/low enough to not suck in a fish due to the bottom of it being exposed.  I stuck my hand around it and felt nothing, zero flow.   I knew what this meant, time to unplug everything, pull the HOB to the sink and go check the pump.  Probably a leaf in there or something and just needed cleaning.

......have I mentioned how frustrated I am with this black beard / staghorn algae.  There was some leaves, but there was also a lot of gunk in there and pretty clear what it was.



Almost looks like hair in the drain. 



This is food and algae and a variety of things.  Why did this happen? 

Well, there's a few reasons but the big on is just the longevity of the mod itself.  The pump housing has so many holes that one tiny pinhole can let this amount of gunk into the filter.  It is very critical for anyone on any hob filter to pull the filter off the tank, take it to a sink and check everything.  This is commonly termed as a deep clean.  For canisters I recommend doing this every time you touch it.  Check the pump, pull the impeller, make sure it's clean and everything works well.  Lubricate anything you need to and proceed with your normal maintenance. 

The tidal has a quirk.  The pump is mounted onto this slide. The slide itself is a wonderful, elegant, fantastic design, but it does result in a dead spot above the pump.  This would normally be where the skimmer drains water into the pump.    Considering filling up the area around the pump is something that seachem can do on a version of this filter designed for planted tanks.  This would exactly reflect the way aqueon quietflows function.  (water in, water out, one pipe through the pump) 

The central hole is where water goes up to the filter pads and the area surrounding it is where all of the gunk goes if there is access for that gunk to get there.  It had access and the prefilter clogged up with gunk, resulting in the detritus finding the path of least resistance... these tiny holes.



Because this silicone is a "moving part" when you check the pump itself, it's very common for the silicone to move a little bit.  Sometimes it can be fixed with surface prep adjustments and that is likely something I need to do.  This also happens with the overflow cutouts in the filter basket itself. 

This is not an unexpected thing, but it's a frustration because we are talking powder size particles in the tank. 

Noticing that the filter itself was lower flow at the output, checking the input itself and feeling no circulation, these are all the fine details that helped me to look and realize exactly how severe the issue was.  2 pumps in the tank circulating water and it felt like nothing was running at all.  The heater had no circulation through the heater grate, resulting in the high temp spike indication.  The heater I have is designed to flash red / shut off when flow is below a certain parameter.  I can't recommend having a color display on the heater to easily, visually see what is going on.

Filter is cleaned, it's running fine now.   I will keep an eye on things and make sure the water is being heated.  This is a cautionary tale for anyone using a HoB or canister in a planted tank.  Check your pumps, at minimum once a month.  If you are dealing with high algae, plant death, check it weekly.

Edited March 25, 2023 by nabokovfan87
images didn't stay attached, reupload images of S.Repens

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/26/2023 at 11:04 AM, Pepere said:

The more I mull things over the more I reach the conclusion that hang on back filters are an incredibly dumb design…

They can be for certain!  I think there's advantages so the use of a HoB, but there is always a few key variables.
A.  How big is the pump, where is it, can it be adjusted.... how easy is it to keep functioning.
B.  How is the flow setup, bottom to top or side to side?
C.  How is the output flow designed?

I actually have a bit of an example to your conclusions above.  The exact same filter, but the only difference being the way water flows through that filter.  Small changes make a bit of difference.

Left Side = Modded
Right Side = Unmodded

The substrate was fixed last night, both pumps turned to the same flowrate and left to run.  This was the photograph in the morning. 


Looking at the output flow I did notice a pretty big difference in person.  The one of the right is much more "choppy" and the output waterfall is a lot more disrupted.

Modded (smoother flow, deeper flow):



Normal Flow (less depth):

 

On 3/26/2023 at 11:04 AM, Pepere said:

HOB also has the water flow in one of the least practical direction..  a mini hang on back canister could have a spray bar along one side of the tank flowing from side to side across the top and having circular rotation of the water.

This is one of my biggest issues.  I also think that a design by which the pump is LAST and pulling through all of the media, or a trickle style design does alleviate some of the issues of the output.  I do think that the prevalence of etsy baffles and so many other mods, speaks to the frustration of the use with how the filters do (or don't) work the way they would like them to do so.  Something like a spraybar output is a great way to handle this.  These products do indeed exist.  They are much more prevalent in the EU. 
 

 

[nabokovfan87]

Minor update on the 55 Tank, new prefilter applied.  I am going to see how well this works.  For this specific size and setup this one should be "good" but I did have a heck of a time trying to get it on all of the tidal input tubes.  If I cut it open, then it will tear a bit too much.  I am hoping this one holds it shape longer.  I do want to try out the larger size (larger hole) on the bigger filters, but I do believe it would be too loose.   This is the one designed for the smaller penguins.

Edited April 26, 2023 by nabokovfan87
typo

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/26/2023 at 4:17 PM, Pepere said:

I think the best fix for the tidal would be to eliminate the basket and pipe the flow to the bottom of the filter.

This way all the water would flow from the bottom up.

The pump directs water to the top of the basket. The basket itself acts as a "chute"  to channel the water to the bottom.  Best I can think is to cut a basket up, chop it, then direct water to the flow.  Once you're at that point, you need to basically design a flow plate and then take that to baffle the flow across the chamber.  As I've shown in a few tests, using normal "mech" type of media isn't a good enough baffle for this case because the pump is so strong.  A lot of this is because it's ultimately designed for salt, not freshwater.  I would be interested to take the same exact setup and add the harder to flow water and see the difference.  I'm not setup for that, but it's an interesting puzzle when you compound everything going on and trying to fix things as "easily" as possible.  I do have some ideas, I cut the basket out a LOT more this time.  We will see how it goes.

[Birdsnstuff]

@Theplatymasteri have a tetra whisper on my 20h and I find it to be super quiet. But it’s relatively new and in my living room. I have a Azoo Mignon on a tank in my bedroom that is pretty quiet too. Though I take the lid off the Azoo before I go to sleep because it changes the tone of the filter. Oddly I can sleep to that tone.  My whisper doesn’t rattle but I did put a little black electrical tape around the edge so the lid was more muffled.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Pepere said:

The problem is, once your restriction through your filtermedia exceeds 1/3 of an inch of head more tan the restriction up the walls and over the top of the basket, water is going to preferentially flow up and over the basket.

That's why they cut a ton of holes in the basket I think.   There's a bit of room to make the basket taller and it's potentially mandatory in a future design.  I think the fear of "besting aquaclear" got the better of them and the notion of the basket floating up and hitting into the lid.

There's a lot to say, I don't disagree with the summaries you have made.

Edited March 27, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

Not sure what I got caught up in, but it's just one of those weeks where I didn't manage to get this posted when I had intended!  This is from swapping the pump, the impeller, and this noise I am trying to fix.  Ultimately I did fix it on one of the HoB but I am still hearing some noise on the unmoded filter.  That pump has been replaced, also with a new impeller, so I am unsure what to do next beyond clean things out constantly to see what is hitting where.  (assembly error, basically).

The One in the package is new, just for comparison sake so I can view the wear on the older impellers.  Ultimately, I need to know what is grinding so I can figure out what needs to be lubricated as well as what can wear out over time.  The way this impeller works is one of the best designs I've seen and it's one of the reasons why I appreciate this pump.  Ultimately, this pump this impeller design goes a long way towards longevity based on one simple design choice. 

A.  Impeller goes into a cavity at the back of the pump to hold the shaft in place, this is similar to how the X07 impellers works as well I believe, but those have a ceramic shaft.  The shaft itself is a good diameter for the workload, but most importantly for me, the magnet itself is attached to the shaft.  This means that when the shaft wears out, you replace the impeller.  This means that the magnet won't damage the shaft, resulting in a longer lifecycle for the impeller (magnet really) and the pump overall.  The other end of the shaft lock into the pump with a 1/4-turn attachment.  It's extremely easy to get this pump apart.  It slides into place and usually just works.  So this issue of a weird noise is quite interesting.....



Both shafts have some marks on the mounting end, but nothing is permanent wear.  This is just simply dirt and scuffs.  The diameter of the shaft isn't worn down at all.  Based on this feature, both should be working well.

The head of the impeller we do see some major wear on one of the pumps.  This might be due to misalignment, but I think it's also due to the press fit on the shaft shifting slightly.  This moves the impeller slightly closer to the pump housing, causing a bit of noise.  One way to test this would be to push on the shaft in the middle while its running to see if the noise goes away.  (not recommended and obviously dangerous to do so)

When I checked the second impeller I saw the attachment plate (cover) that was stuck in place.  I did eventually get it to slide, but maybe I shouldn't have been able to?  I think it was just a little bit of dirt on the plastic that just caused it to get stuck in place.  As always, clean your pumps!

Here is a side by side to hopefully give you a slightly easier view to see the difference in wear on these two.


The following summary on why I opted to replace the impellers is because of the difference I saw between the two of these pumps and impellers.  I think the magnets got a bit stuck in polarity.  the way the motors work is that you have a direction, 4, 6, or 8 poles and the pump rotates the charge on the pump side (electromagnet) which then rotates the impeller magnet.  This causes it to spin.  These two impellers had a bit less of an intense magnetism resulting in a bit of sloppiness when they would spin. 

I mentioned it a bit earlier without the photos, but if you have a pump that isn't working as it should and you are absolutely certain the housing and everything is clean.  Then I would recommend checking on the impeller shaft and the impeller magnet itself as a new solution. 

[nabokovfan87]

Alright, this is a fun one. @Chick-In-Of-TheSea I know how much you enjoy diagrams.

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Alright, this is a fun one. @Chick-In-Of-TheSea I know how much you enjoy diagrams.

 

Actually very interesting! 

[nabokovfan87]

First clean out on the tank today. I did one bucket for each filter. The modded one ran for a few extra days while I was waiting for a pump, but it's not out of the ordinary given the flow path. Pretty cool to see the difference in effectiveness of specifically mechanical filtration.

 

[nabokovfan87]

Much calmer this week.  I didn't have the time/opportunity to take photos.  It was a bit dark today.  The filters and everything seem to be doing fine. 

As a note I will mention that the modified filter had some "fun noise" turning on just from the air purging through the system.  I went ahead and checked the level on the filter to make sure there wasn't any issues and I'll keep an ear out on everything for the rest of the night.  I don't really have any concern of an issue, but I wanted to mention it. There's always a variety of reasons for things and if it's an issue long term we'll be able to note that as well.

Sponges weren't insanely dirty or anything.  The filters have been generally running "lower flow" as a result of the layout in the tank and not wanting to push the fish around too much.  Plants and fish are settled in now, meaning that I can turn them up to full blast if need be.  right now I have them set "down 2 ticks" on the dial.  This is about 70-80% flow.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:42 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

First clean out on the tank today. I did one bucket for each filter. The modded one ran for a few extra days while I was waiting for a pump, but it's not out of the ordinary given the flow path. Pretty cool to see the difference in effectiveness of specifically mechanical filtration.

 

I find it satisfying to see water like this. It’s proof the tank needed maintenance, and now that has been accomplished.

[nabokovfan87]

I blame it on actually having the proper size tank for the fish....

I am officially moving to two weeks between cleanings.  I am still mulling over the filter cleanings weekly (for all my tanks) in addition to top offs, but the major maintenance and water changes will now be extended to 14 days for the 75G.

I cleaned out both filters last week and there was almost no detritus.  I do see things working, the prefilter is doing it's job.  That being said, I seriously wish I could try out some different foams.  The ones I have are pretty much the only ones available.  I keep eyeballing the Fluval x07 series 2" reticulated foams, but they are not thick enough.  The only other source of foams that seems to have something similar to what I need is swisstropicals.

I will be a bit more diligent about photos and monitoring.  The work hasn't stopped and the testing continues.  Working with a pumphead in addition to the other filters is enlightening.  I can simply state that for now and elaborate when there is more information.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 4/21/2023 at 2:06 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I am officially moving to two weeks between cleanings

I tried to, but the nitrates had other ideas.  I am overstocked because I love snails too much 😬.  The hornwort is taking off though, and I also have added maybe 7-ish stems of pothos; waiting for the root systems to get going.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/21/2023 at 5:58 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I am overstocked because snails.

I fixed it for you. 🙂

Yeah, once the plants get going it won't take much for the shrimp to have basically nothing in the water.  I don't mind nitrates as long as it's from ferts and not from waste.

[nabokovfan87]

Just a quick update here.  I went and cleaned out the pumps on both filters.  Nothing crazy, nothing too unexpected.

Unmodified Filter
Plant debris on the pump itself.  The pump housing (black plastic that goes around the pump) was covered in plant debris as well as the skimmer.  Because that debris was there, this also made it easier for other debris and waste to get stuck on those areas and gunk things up.  The impeller shaft is sealed for the most part and the pump itself is labelled as "self-cleaning".  This is just a reminder, if you have one of these filters in a planted tank, why it is a good idea to clean out the pump itself as well once a month.

 

Modified Filter:
Less debris than above and the photos look a bit worse than it did in person.  Just some bacteria, algae, food debris on the pump and in the higher flow sections.  The prefilter stops the heavy debris, but it's clear that the pump is still allowed to push some pretty good size particles through the prefilter foam.

Edited May 1, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[redfish]

Thanks for keeping these updates going.

On 3/21/2023 at 8:39 PM, Pepere said:

Within the next year I expect to have my living room renovated and then will be buying a 75 gallon tank to go in there.  At that point I will be tearing down the 29 gallon tank to pull the plants to go in the 75, along with taking some from a few other tanks…

The Tidal will not go back in.  I will be done with it…It is more hassle than it is worth in my estimation.

even drastically reducing filter back pressure, once you block out the big bypasses, it bypasses over the top into the basket..

@Pepere What do you plan to use on the 75g for filtration?

[redfish]

I recently picked up an AquaClear 70 to replace an old HOB in my 55g.  I read through your mods and thought to myself, I didn't have time to do all of this but maybe one day.  I see flaws or opportunities for improvements in most of the popular HOB's but they work good enough as is I guess.