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Lets talk drip acclimation, the good, the bad, and the ugly.


Theplatymaster
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as stated in the title, drip acclimation is something that confuses me.

It is a very common practice in this hobby, but ive heard it can be dangerous as well.

so lets talk about it,

is there a right way to do it without building up ammonia?

am i hearing people's stories about ammonia buildup wrong?

because if it was really dangerous, less people would do it, so it seems some have success, and some dont.

please talk to me, im so confused.

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My understanding is as the carbon dioxide builds in a shipping bag it lowers ph making ammonia not as harmful. As soon as you open the bag and start adding higher ph water the ph skyrockets and the ammonia that is harmful does also. 
Drip acclimating them can potentially burn the gills while the fish are being dripped sitting in a high level of ammonia. I float to temp dump into a net and drop the fish in tanks. 
 

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I've drip acclimated shipped wild caught fish only because they were wild caught and I was afraid to shock it with my water. I put prime in the bag, as soon as I opened it, then dumped it in a different container to start drip acclimating. This was back in 2016 before I found out that prime doesn't do anything for ammonia. The fish survived and even spawned a few times so I thought prime actually did something for ammonia until I saw an experiment done on a saltwater forum. The experiment showed that prime doesn't detoxify ammonia (free ammonia) as seachem claims. They didn't test on freshwater but that was enough for me not to drip acclimate fish anymore. 

I don't drip acclimate fish anymore but I still do with shrimp because they're just more sensitive to different water parameters.

 

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On 3/14/2023 at 4:54 PM, Theplatymaster said:

so other dechlorinators do?

Other dechlorinators (that I've used) doesn't claim to detoxify ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The experiment was only done with prime so I can't say. I found this experiment because I wanted more info on seachems claim that "Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. It contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them."

The experiment didn't include if prime detoxifies nitrite or nitrate.

 

 

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I’ve taken a lot of fish in over the years as deliveries for a petstore or just for myself. I’ve used a variety of methods and personally I drip acclimate my fish collection now. I don’t really think much of it beyond personal choice. I like doing it this way.

 

Although I do have to say if ever I come across a fish with red gills breathing rapidly. I dump that water and toss the fish into the tank as soon as possible. Drip acclimation or other slower processes may not be fast enough for these fish and mortality is going to be high regardless so I’d rather them have clean oxygenated water moving through the gills. For this reason I may not have come across any issues with drip acclimation. 🤷‍♂️

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I don't have a local fish store, so most of my fish are shipped. I typically add Prime & stress guard to any bag that comes my way and do a slow drip acclimation into a cycled tank, and so far I've had no immediate losses with that method. I'm by no means an expert - I agree with @Biotope Biologist, I don't think of it much beyond personal choice and it seems the best of my available options.

 

Though I have read that prime doesn't affect ammonia & nitrite like it claims to, I continue to use it; I'm getting a ship of Amguard in the next couple of days, and while I plan to use that for an upcoming move, I'm wondering if it would reduce any toxic effects of ammonia during a drip acclimation?

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I personally always buy fish from my lfs, so fish spend around 10-15 min time in the bag from lfs to home. I only have my shrimp and sometimes snails shipped to me.

I always drip acclimate my stuff, even if they are shipped. I just change the time based on the species I am drip acclimating.

If it is a more fragile fish like otos, I take my time and keep it longer. If it is a hardy species that directly do better in my water, I keep the acclimation time shorter.

When drip acclimating fish, I always use stressguard. When acclimating shipped stuff, I use prime.

These all worked perfectly for me so far, and my ph and kh is above the limit of most fish I have been keeping in this hobby.

I personally feel like drip acclimating is much better, but that is just a personal opinion and experience. I have no experience regarding shipped fish, but I think shrimp is also pretty sensitive. They just poop less than a normal fish during the journey mostly 🙂

 

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I personally think drip acclimating is a waste of time. I just drop and plop. The reason why I believe this is that a fish won't acclimate to your water quickly through drip acclimation. The fish would need lots of time to acclimate to your water either way and if fish could get used to water that quickly, drastic water parameter changes would have never been an issue. Even for sensitive species, rams or otocinclus, or even shrimp, I float them for 20 minutes and then drop them into the tank. Less stressful and less time wasted.

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On 3/15/2023 at 12:00 AM, DiscusLover said:

I personally think drip acclimating is a waste of time. I just drop and plop. The reason why I believe this is that a fish won't acclimate to your water quickly through drip acclimation. The fish would need lots of time to acclimate to your water either way and if fish could get used to water that quickly, drastic water parameter changes would have never been an issue. 

Fish gills can actually change morphologically to the surrounding water in as little as 30-45 minutes. Euryhaline fish (brackish) do it nearly constantly. Drastic shifts though are not adaptable conditions. Thus why you see shock. 

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On 3/14/2023 at 6:37 PM, Guppysnail said:

My understanding is as the carbon dioxide builds in a shipping bag it lowers ph making ammonia not as harmful. As soon as you open the bag and start adding higher ph water the ph skyrockets and the ammonia that is harmful does also. 

It's not adding higher ph water that raises ph (or rather not only doing that), it's opening the bag and allowing CO2 that's dissolved in the water to gas off. The high level of dissolved CO2 in the bagged water that occurs after a day or more of respiration is what reduces the pH of the water, thereby rendering any ammonia safe(r). Once the bag is opened, the CO2 comes out of solution pretty fast, and that's what causes ph to rise, which re-toxifies any ammonia. Ie if all you do is open the shipping bag and let it breathe, ph will still climb and ammonia will re-toxify. In theory. Says the armchair/internet expert. 

 

As a newbie, I was in camp acclimate. But now 5 years into this delightful hobby I've paddled over to camp plop-and-drop.

If the fish are shipped (I've only taken a shipment once), I temp acclimate then plop and drop (reason above). 

If the fish are from any of the local stores I buy from (where I know from experience/testing that the water is fairly close to mine), I temp acclimate and plop and drop. Conversely, I know that when I sell to them, they also temp acclimate then plop and drop, and they report excellent survivorship of my stock. 

If fish are from a local seller, and I've confirmed the water is reasonably close to mine, I temp acclimate and plop and drop. 

BUT if I have reason to believe the source water is different from mine (maybe comes from a tank with CO2, maybe old tank rescues, maybe well water or remineralized RO water), THEN I drip acclimate. 

The other time I drip acclimate is when my summer tub stock comes into the basement in late fall. Those are no-water-change tubs, so...

I've found that stress is just as likely to, well, stress the fish as new water or environment. And sitting in a bucket or bag, with a giant hooman adding and taking out water every few minutes, and not being able to hide behind some plants or whatever is stressful. For them and me. New fish seem to appreciate just being dumped into the new tank and being able go hide under/below/behind some plants rocks or wood for a few minutes, to get their bearings, then come out on their own. Other fish in the tank, if they're peaceful, seem to help them to feel safe. I usually keep the tank and room lights off or low, if I can. And I usually hold off on feeding for 1-2 days if I can. 

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In many ways, I agree with everyone here. I cannot make claims on the physiological or experiential effects and outcomes so I will add my opinion from the standpoint of a chemist. I have seen these adamant declarations that dechlorinators claiming detoxification abilities do not work in some of the most adamant and sensationalist terms but to date, but I’ve not seen any from any sources with authority (and don’t get me started on aqscience.org).

Forgive me but as an active, working chemist for JPL Pasadena, I have read much of the amateur chemistry posted on forums and most of it is an exercise in futility. When the equations I’ve seen that are in fact balanced or correct, at least of those I’ve seen, and I’m sure I’ve missed many, are of speculated chemicals so they are unsure if these are indeed the chemicals they seek to criticize!  

I should say that many of the big aquatic’s houses seem to prefer plop and drop.  Yes, I realize that may be a lesser of evils. Choose your poison, ph shock or ammonia shock. But there’s very sound science behind their choice.

This is not news to most of you but I’ll briefly revisit it for continuity.

As some have already stated, when a fish in a bag arrives in the mail, you’ll notice that ph is usually quite low. This is the co2 buildup creating carbonic acid, dropping the ph. In my experience, a bagged fish through a mail order facility will exhibit a ph of about 6-7. It will also have very high ammonium. This unfortunate but inevitable happening is accompanied by an innate protection in that ammonia barely exists in a ph of 6-7. At 6, it’s virtually all ammonium.

When you open the bag, the co2 begins to escape per henry's law, the ph rises and the bag full of ammonium suddenly converts to ammonia and the damage begins. Forgive me but I’ve borrowed this chart from @dasaltemelosguy pdf downloads:

nh3-4-ph.png.7a0c0d4dff8e395bc9bdbe7249573049.png

I’ve seen no definitive experiments measuring the effectiveness of prime and others detoxifying ammonia and nitrite in the aquarium world that is. However, in professional settings, fisheries, hatcheries, laboratories, oceanography institutions, and universities, there are volumes of competent work has been done and ALL use chemicals related to prime exactly for this purpose.

The coop article below provides a series of charts indicating the degree of detoxification of each toxin that have been provided in the patents that these companies have been awarded. Some of the most relevant have been compiled here on the coop forum in this brilliant article by @dasaltemelosguy  

A Brief History of Prime - General Discussion - C.A.R.E. (aquariumcoop.com)

I think it’s beautifully written, powerfully informative and concisely complied in summary form. It’s a compelling argument in that many amateurs decry these chemicals as frauds, yet some of the most prestigious institutions in the world embrace them and have done so for decades. It also cites patent after patent where they’ve provided public access of these proofs. I believe in credit where credit is due, @Guppysnail and @Odd Duck did some editing and/or have added content for the article as well. 

I won’t go into the specifics here but the short version would be to say that prime (and others) for example, convert ammonia and nitrite to a chemical that is inert which binds ammonia and nitrite into a stable compound, aminomethanesulfonate or similar, unless the ph suddenly rose to between 9-10. This inert nitrogen/hydrogen complex created is still usable for the bacteria so cycling continues. The amount of ammonia and nitrite these detox chemicals do in fact detox varies. Ammonia is reduced the most, followed by nitrite, and then even nitrate is nulled but to a far lesser extent.

Once again, the amounts of detoxification may be seen in the charts provided in the @dasaltemelosguy article. A Brief History of Prime - General Discussion - C.A.R.E. (aquariumcoop.com)

Further, @modified lung made an important point that ClorAm-X was awarded a patent where they provided the entire chemical chain of how this is accomplished. As @modified lung adeptly points out in the thread above, it was a “game-changer” for transporting fish and is in wide use even today. I would strongly recommend reading @modified lung and @dasaltemelosguy suggestion of the ClorAm-X patent as they provide ample mathematical proofs.

Henrys law would suggest to me, again from a chemistry perspective, that the ammonium to ammonia conversion upon opening the bag is near instantaneous. This may make it a more dangerous option than the ph but I am no expert in the physiology. I would certainly defer to experts like @Biotope Biologist. I only raise the point that from the position of a chemist, these detoxifiers do in fact reduce ammonia to far less toxic states. That being. they will detoxify limited amounts for limited time periods.

Perhaps detoxifying the bag immediately would then allow for a slower, ph adjustment? Not for me to say.

I feel that @Biotope Biologist suggests, slow, careful and properly done drip acclimation is best. But if such a setup cannot be done, it’s plop and drop.

See below how these popular pros all agree on plop and drop as the best of the worst options.

How The Pros Acclimate Fish! Tank Talk Presented b

If anyone would like to see the equations as to how and why detoxifiers like prime reduce ammonia and nitrite, feel free to dm me. I am an infrequent visitor here so please allow some time for a response. Better still, at @modified lung suggestion, download the ClorAm-X patent as it's comprehensive and detailed. Joe

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On 3/14/2023 at 4:05 PM, Theplatymaster said:

as stated in the title, drip acclimation is something that confuses me.

It is a very common practice in this hobby, but ive heard it can be dangerous as well.

so lets talk about it,

is there a right way to do it without building up ammonia?

am i hearing people's stories about ammonia buildup wrong?

because if it was really dangerous, less people would do it, so it seems some have success, and some dont.

please talk to me, im so confused.

This post is going to go against the norm and some might even have serious issue with it but I can't argue with my results.

I used to either drip method acclimate or more often do the scoop a bit of water in the bag every so often over the course of an hour or more to acclimate my fish but most of the time I would lose a fish or two upon introduction into my tank almost every time. Knowing this I would buy 8 Neon Tetra even though I only want 5 because I was sure 2-3 would die within 24 hours. 

About a year ago I read someone on this forum (at least I think it was this forum) say that they mostly just temperature acclimate by floating the bag for 15-30 minutes and then just put the fish in the tank. No drip, No scoops of water, nothing. Just float and drop.  The theory here is that the time spent in the bag or bucket if you drip stresses the fish out more than any minor parameter changes will stress the fish out. minimizing the time you acclimate will minimize the stress on the fish and create better results. Since reading this, I have only done the float and drop method and I have not lost a single fish upon introduction to the tank. I have even used this method on somewhat finicky fish like GBRs successfully.

There are obvious caveats such as the water parameters the fish is coming from compared to where they are going.  If you get the fish from your LFS, its very likely that their water is similar to your water so the temp acclimation is all that is needed. If you are buying online or if you know your parameters differ greatly from the LFS then this method probably isn't best for that situation. BUT if you are getting fish from the LFS and bringing them home to your house, I have found that it gets much better results than any other method.

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On 3/15/2023 at 2:27 PM, NOLANANO said:

About a year ago I read someone on this forum (at least I think it was this forum) say that they mostly just temperature acclimate by floating the bag for 15-30 minutes and then just put the fish in the tank. No drip, No scoops of water, nothing. Just float and drop.  The theory here is that the time spent in the bag or bucket if you drip stresses the fish out more than any minor parameter changes will stress the fish out. minimizing the time you acclimate will minimize the stress on the fish and create better results. Since reading this, I have only done the float and drop method and I have not lost a single fish upon introduction to the tank. I have even used this method on somewhat finicky fish like GBRs successfully.

Started doing this awhile back and it has worked perfectly for me every time since.  The biggest tipping point was when I mail ordered discus from Discus Hans (Stendker discus at the time) and it said to plop-and-drop.  I thought why not do it with everything if discus do well with it?

Now, I'm pretty much always guaranteed to be going up in pH from whatever they're in as most everything I keep is in 8.2.  I've heard going up in pH is easier than going down.  But there's also plenty of people discus people who move their fish from tap water into straight RO for breeding purposes without much preamble and they don't have issues.  I think more often than not factors outside of acclimation might be the bigger deal, but they're harder to identify.

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Ever since I got into the hobby, I have done the plop n drop method. The LFS that I started buying fish from and then worked at as a teenager and early 20s always did it, and he would hardly ever lose fish, so it's what I did and still do. I float the bags for 15-20 minutes, open the bag and pour the fish out into a net that is set over a bucket, and then drop the fish into the tank. I have bought fish from several online sellers, aquabid, LFS, local fish club auctions, and imported wild caught fish and have done it this way, and have very minimal issues. I have even done it with neo and caridina shrimp. With the caridina shrimp, I ask seller what their TDS is and match it to the tank they will be going into and do the float, strain and plop. 

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I thought I would provide my own hot take on this.  And here it is: I suspect the situation is complex enough that there is not one, right, golden, perfect answer for all organisms in all situations.  There are a number of factors going into this.  How long have/has the fish been in the bag?  Is it a breather bag or a plastic one?  What are thr parameters of the source water?  How different is the source water/current water in bag from the water in the tank?  How tolerant are the species in the bag to large changes in water chemistry?  That last point I believe is especially salient.

Organisms need to be able to tolerate fluctuations in their environment, but those tolerances will vary based on the normal variability the organism experiences (along with legacy constraints based on their lineage - but let's not get too far in the weeds here).  Fortunately for us, the critters we keep in little, transparent boxes in our homes come from highly variable environments, particularly FW species.  Whenever it rains, or floods, in heat waves or cold snaps, most of these environments change.  Sometimes rapidly.  Yes, the cold snaps are not as severe in the tropics as say in an Appalachian brook (to get a general idea of how this impacts species please see a paper from 1967 here - I believe everyone can access with that link), but ever time it rains, little streams will cool rapidly, and even large rivers can cool upon larger rains.  I can imagine that species from ephemeral pools or particularly small tributaries might be even more tolerant of rapid changes in their water than those from say the main channel of the Amazon or the large African rift lakes.  But these species too will encounter changes.  Eddies bringing up cold water from the deep channel in the river, or the up/downwellings in the great lakes of Africa will all quickly change the temperature, and potentially other water characteristics.  

All that said, does this cause the fish stress?  Probably to varying degrees, but not severely as long as these changes are within the parameters to which their species' is adapted.  This is what I think allows people to - what are calling this? plop and drop?  I can't recall.  But I don't think that the motivation for wholesalers and retailers to use this approach is driven by hyper concern for the fish.  I'm guessing it works most of the time, and there aren't big losses, plus it would cost staff time and effort to do something slower.  And that's fine.  I'm passing no judgement here.  I just suspect, particularly for the wholesalers, they have too much inventory moving through to do mush otherwise.

To be clear, I am not arguing that drip acclimation is a must or better.  I agree with @Biotope Biologist that it is largely a matter of preference.  Are there likely scenarios where drip will create better outcomes?  Almost certainly.  Conversely, are there situations where drip will lead to worse outcomes?  Most likely.  My argument is just that the number of factors going into assessing which option will be optimal is multifaceted enough that it defies creating a simple guideline.

If you got this far, I have a treat for you.  Here is where I get to show how dumb I am as I disagree with a professor of chemistry from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.  Ready...?

On 3/15/2023 at 12:34 PM, boylesdowntothis said:

When you open the bag, the co2 begins to escape per henry's law, the ph rises and the bag full of ammonium suddenly converts to ammonia and the damage begins.

On 3/15/2023 at 12:34 PM, boylesdowntothis said:

Henrys law would suggest to me, again from a chemistry perspective, that the ammonium to ammonia conversion upon opening the bag is near instantaneous.

I disagree.  I suspect there are significant lags in the CO2 loss from the water, the pH shift, and ∴ the ammonium -> ammonia conversion.  Henry's Law has been a while for me, so hopefully I remember this correctly, but we'll see...  😁 

My recollection is that Henry's Law governs real world examples like the bends in divers, and the bubbles in a popped soda can or uncorked champagne.  In both these cases the effect we observe is based on the time lag to equilibrium of the dissolved gasses.  Were it not so, divers could ascend as rapidly as they like, and soda would be a spectacular show upon opening, but a rather dull drinking experience.  Don't even get me started on what it would do to beer!  I also assume that it is because this process is far from instantaneous we can dose our planted tanks with CO2, and we worry about low oxygen in still tanks when the power goes out.  I realize in a bag of shipped fish we are dealing with vastly smaller volumes of water, and the conditions will change more rapidly, in some proportional manner.  But, I still must suspect there is yet time once a bag has been opened before the pH driven ammonium -> ammonia sift occurs in a way that is dangerous for the fish.  

Okay, now is when you explain what I missed!  🤪

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On 3/15/2023 at 1:34 PM, boylesdowntothis said:

In many ways, I agree with everyone here. I cannot make claims on the physiological or experiential effects and outcomes so I will add my opinion from the standpoint of a chemist. I have seen these adamant declarations that dechlorinators claiming detoxification abilities do not work in some of the most adamant and sensationalist terms but to date, but I’ve not seen any from any sources with authority (and don’t get me started on aqscience.org).

 

Thank you *so* much for this very thorough explanation. And the articles. I really appreciate it and it has severely informed me.

On 3/16/2023 at 10:27 AM, Theplatymaster said:

one of these days ill read through all these essays on this topic...

I am actually going to print them out and take them with me to PT and my doctor appointments. lmao.

 

I loved chemistry in school, almost as much as astronomy. So I look at it as furthering my learning.

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On 3/16/2023 at 7:25 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

If you got this far, I have a treat for you.  Here is where I get to show how dumb I am as I disagree with a professor of chemistry from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.  Ready...?

I disagree.  I suspect there are significant lags in the CO2 loss from the water, the pH shift, and ∴ the ammonium -> ammonia conversion.  Henry's Law has been a while for me, so hopefully I remember this correctly, but we'll see...  😁 

My recollection is that Henry's Law governs real world examples like the bends in divers, and the bubbles in a popped soda can or uncorked champagne.  In both these cases the effect we observe is based on the time lag to equilibrium of the dissolved gasses.  Were it not so, divers could ascend as rapidly as they like, and soda would be a spectacular show upon opening, but a rather dull drinking experience. 

I guess it depends on the definition of "instantaneous"! 🤣

This is a very rough estimate but at normal atmospheric pressures and temperatures, it's easier to determine the CO2 loss by the pH as the latter will rise as CO2 escapes. With this as a metric, and with pH being a log, it would drop an entire point (10-fold) in about the first 50 minutes. So, it may not be immediate, but I think this alone could be fatal to many fishes. Add the simultaneous ammonium to ammonia conversion and it sounds risky. 

On 3/16/2023 at 7:25 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

Don't even get me started on what it would do to beer!  I also assume that it is because this process is far from instantaneous we can dose our planted tanks with CO2, and we worry about low oxygen in still tanks when the power goes out. 

Yep. All true. It gets somewhat complicated when it's near normal pressures as solubility and temperature then become dominant factors. O2 enjoying better solubility than CO2, and both are better when water is cold.  So, it kind of becomes apples and oranges without a Pascal pressure factor. 

On 3/16/2023 at 7:25 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

I realize in a bag of shipped fish we are dealing with vastly smaller volumes of water, and the conditions will change more rapidly, in some proportional manner.  But, I still must suspect there is yet time once a bag has been opened before the pH driven ammonium -> ammonia sift occurs in a way that is dangerous for the fish.  

Okay, now is when you explain what I missed!  🤪

To be clear, I am not arguing that drip acclimation is a must or better.  I agree with @Biotope Biologist that it is largely a matter of preference.  Are there likely scenarios where drip will create better outcomes?  Almost certainly.  Conversely, are there situations where drip will lead to worse outcomes?  Most likely.  My argument is just that the number of factors going into assessing which option will be optimal is multifaceted enough that it defies creating a simple guideline.

Total agreement too. But personally, I've had more luck with plop & drop!🤞

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