Whole tank died at once except snails

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:58 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

This is aragonite. But the little white sticker says crushed coral. I am confused. 

This is like that whole water conditioner vs. dechlorinator thing.  It's the same thing, it's all coral.

Aragonite is usually branded as a cichlid substrate or saltwater substrate blend of CC+Sand
 

On 2/23/2023 at 4:58 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

2 lb went to axolotl tank (29gal),

and 2 lb went to this (10gal) tank.

Well I am glad / thankful that 5G didn't go into the 10G tank.  I would suggest monitoring PH/KH for a little bit and let the tank settle. 

What is maintenance regime like on this tank.  What is the tap water testing at?  Can you have her Aerate a sample for 24 hours just to compare and check for OTS to her 7.4 PH results.

I think the main issue here is just PH swings and stability.  If the fish were new, could've been just simply an acclimation issue where they were trying to adjust to one water, then it shifted and caused stress.  Snails, Amanos likely won't be bothered as long as PH isn't shooting up into the 8's.  7.4 or below for Amano.  Snails I don't know from memory, but the added hardness would be less stress for them, so they survived the swings.

 

My assumption is that the PH essentially did the following:

7.4 (Tap) --> 6.0 (Tank) ---> 7.4+ (Tank + Coral)

Edited February 24, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Theplatymaster]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:58 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

and 2 lb went to this (10gal) tank.

overdose.

1lb per 10gallons is the suggested norm.

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:26 PM, Theplatymaster said:

overdose.

1lb per 10gallons is the suggested norm.

 

She said she used less than what the instructions said to use.

[Theplatymaster]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:28 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

She said she used less than what the instructions said to use.

my guess at this point (it might change) is that its not crushed coral. A sticker can be put on wrong, a packaging error, where the wrong product is in the package, is much rarer, which could explain the different dosing results, here is a screenshot from the ACO website just to explain what i said:

but anyway, dont listen to me.

listen to smart people like @nabokovfan87 my ENTIRE reputation is Laugh emojis.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Theplatymaster

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:30 PM, Theplatymaster said:

my guess at this point (it might change) is that its not crushed coral. A sticker can be put on wrong, a packaging error, where the wrong product is in the package, is much rarer, which could explain the different dosing results, here is a screenshot from the ACO website just to explain what i said:

It’s aragonite. See @nabokovfan87’s post above. Likely higher dosing required due to the sand content.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:31 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

It’s aragonite. See @nabokovfan87’s post above. Likely higher dosing required due to the sand content.

Use case varies as well.

The 1 lb per 10G comes from ACO and their posts for crushed coral.  How much should you add, what's correct?  debatable.  The point of CC is to slowly adjust over time. The acidic water wears down the calcium and buffers the KH specifically. 

From ACO Page:

Quote

Crushed coral is a great tool for raising the pH of your water. We use it at 1 pound of crushed coral per 10 gallons of water when mixed in with our gravel. Crushed coral dissolves continuously over time. The lower your pH is, the faster it dissolves. As the pH rises, it slows down how fast the coral dissolves. Crushed coral adds a bit of hardness to the water and it significantly boosts KH which buffers pH from swinging.

Aragonite is specifically branded / termed for salt and for cichlid aquariums.  I don't know what dosing directions for those are, but I'll dig it up.

Ultimately there is just confusion as to what is normal for the application and the packaging intent.

Caribsea - CORALine brand - "Florida Crushed Coral"


This is what was purchased ^^

Caribsea - Aragonite brand - AragaMax™ Select
Dosing would be similar to what you use for SUBSTRATE not for buffering purposes (1 lb per gallon of water, same directions when trying to find out how much substrate to purchase)



EDIT: The final thing to note here is that particle size plays a big factor here as well.  Aragonite is more of a sand compared to CC.  Smaller particles dissolve quicker.  Explaining the quick change in parameters along with the dose is why it's a massive jump all of a sudden.

Edited February 24, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Colu]

On 2/24/2023 at 1:08 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

GH and kH both changed by about 7 over one week. @Colu mentioned that’s not a big change?

I have kept bristlenose in soft and hard water over last twenty years and not had any problems bristlenose have been captive breed  over a long period of time and are tolerant of a wide range of water parameters I don't think the water hardness changing over the period of a week would kill all the fish  @anewbie

Edited February 24, 2023 by Colu

[Chris]

Don't have much concrete info to add here, but I can offer some anecdotes.

I've kept a lot of saltwater and brackish tanks, and frequently reuse substrates when appropriate - even when switching a tank from saltwater to freshwater, and vice-versa. The aragonite/CC mix my green spotted puffer is living with was used for a molly breeding tank at one time, and my colony of snakeskin guppies is living with a bunch of CC that was used in a reef tank several years ago. I didn't even rinse it all that well - just kinda sprayed it off to get the dried salt crystals out, and tossed it in the tank.

Basically, I'm saying I've never had an issue and would find it very odd for normal CC to cause a problem, even with an "overdose". If I had to guess, either there was a contaminant in the CC, the swing in KH did them in (plausible with the guppies, IMO), or there was some contaminant that made it into the tank without your friend knowing.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:07 PM, Colu said:

I don't think the water hardness changing over the period of a week would kill all the fish  @anewbie

What about if it went from 0-8 degrees in a matter of 12-24 hours?

I think the stuff purchased is the actual CC Florida stuff according to the photo, which would mean the larger size.

Maybe the minerals in there did something?

Hard to say.

[jwcarlson]

How is your friend checking the pH and KH?  Strips or liquid tests?  

Edited February 24, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Guppysnail]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea it’s very hard to say. A reaction like that with large scale quick deaths in my experience is usually as @Colu said disease or poisoning. 
My guess would be there was something on your friends hands. Lotion, previous use of cleaning products, sunscreen, hair care, makeup etc. 

She possibly did the tank with deaths first and whatever toxic substance was on the hands got deposited in the fatal tank and was no longer present when working on the axolotl tank. 
Snails find different things toxic than fish which would explain them being ok. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:43 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Dosing would be similar to what you use for SUBSTRATE not for buffering purposes (1 lb per gallon of water, same directions when trying to find out how much substrate to purchase)

She put 2lb per 10g

On 2/23/2023 at 8:30 PM, Theplatymaster said:

my guess at this point (it might change) is that its not crushed coral. A sticker can be put on wrong, a packaging error, where the wrong product is in the package

Fair observation. We don’t have a way to know.

On 2/23/2023 at 8:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

check for OTS

Define OTS

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/24/2023 at 12:44 AM, jwcarlson said:

How is your friend checking the pH and KH?  Strips or liquid tests?  

Drops
 

On 2/24/2023 at 6:41 AM, Guppysnail said:

something on your friends hands. Lotion, previous use of cleaning products, sunscreen, hair care, makeup etc. 

She said “maybe” when she added the cc, doesn’t remember- that was a week before the deaths.  but she didn’t have her hands in the tank within the 2 days that the fish died.

@nabokovfan87 she’s not gonna do the offgas test.. 😐

However she will test at the tap.

She says the crushed coral she used is the size of aquarium gravel.

It’s not dusty/sandy consistency 

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/24/2023 at 5:31 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Define OTS

Old tank. Meaning that the PH, KH, GH are different than the tap and there's a big swing in parameters that cause acclimation shock.

On 2/24/2023 at 6:12 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

She says the crushed coral she used is the size of aquarium gravel.

Good. That's the right stuff.

On 2/24/2023 at 5:31 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

She put 2lb per 10g

Normal for 0 KH tanks I think.

[anewbie]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:07 PM, Colu said:

I have kept bristlenose in soft and hard water over last twenty years and not had any problems bristlenose have been captive breed  over a long period of time and are tolerant of a wide range of water parameters I don't think the water hardness changing over the period of a week would kill all the fish  @anewbie

you can and most do but it isn't healthy. There has been some research that calcium builds up in their organs and shorten their life-span. How much - well that depends on a lot of factors. So for folks that keep fishes only 2 to 5 years and then 'dispose' of them it probably doesn't matter; but if you want to keep them for very long or 'optimize' their health soft water is better.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Just to circle back to this thread to give everyone a happy update. My friend changed out the substrate because the CC was all throughout the substrate she had. She restocked after monitoring parameters for awhile and now she has discovered baby guppies and Bloody Mary shrimplets in her tank. 
 

Here are 2 photos of guppy fry (cool ghost shrimps chillin in the background) and you can see a Bloody Mary shrimplet on the moss in the 3rd photo if you zoom in a little.