Opinions on what might have caused death, warning: picture

[Lennie]

Hey guys,

Sadly I have lost my first fish after maybe years of not losing any new fish. It has been active and eating. It has not shown any sign of disease or bloating, and I am pretty much shocked tbh. 

Today, when I woke up, I saw one of the red lizards was sucked in on its side on the HOB prefilter sponge. I don't know which one, they are all similar. I found it weird as normally they were grazing on it, thought maybe the sucking power was too strong somehow, which I don't think so ( it is an Aquaclear50). Anyway, at least there was a fine sponge, and when I saved the fish, it was moving pretty okay, so I didn't think of any problems. It didn't seem to have any body deformity.

After around 6-7 hours, the guy randomly died. He has been active and moving around nonstop. I'm still shocked. When I checked his body, he seemed to have something like a small bubble inside its belly. Could it be caused of being sucked in the sponge, or some sort of disease? I am not good with diseases. 

I test the water everyday whenever I add new fish. Nitrate lower than 10, Ammonia and Nitrite always 0, gh is around 8, kh 19, ph. 8.0-8.2.

Thanks for the help in advance,

 

Here are the pics of the fish:

Before someone else tags you, @Colu, @Odd Duck :')

Edited February 22, 2023 by Lennie

[Colu]

Without any symptoms other than the small bubbles in his belly it difficult to give a definitive diagnosis you can get bubble under the skin of fish with gas bubble disease that caused by super saturation of desloved oxygen i think this is highly unlikely how long have you had the fish and was eating ok and have round full belly @Lennie

Edited February 22, 2023 by Colu

[Lennie]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:47 PM, Colu said:

Without any symptoms other than the small bubbles in his belly it difficult to give a definitive diagnosis you can get bubble under the skin of fish with gas bubble disease that caused by super saturation of desloved oxygen i think this will  highly unlikely how long have you had the fish and was eating ok and have round full belly @Lennie

I got 2 of them on last Sunday and 2 another on monday after reading they like to be in groups. They were kinda skinny in the store so I fed the tank a bit heavily, also mainly due to they are juviniles and wanted to make sure mystery snails and pygmys not competing them. Today they got Sera Spirulina tabs as morning meal as their last meal. they constantly graze on catappa leaves and on plants/glass/rocks too.

So they have full belly since I got them all from the store and started feeding in my tank, idk specifically when I got them seperately, but all max in 3 days which means pretty new in any case.

Water temp is 25C and It is a 33g running with a AC50. I only add an airstone after water changes and if I see any sort of biofilm on top, I add it to break it. the tank is densely planted. I don't think the oxygen level would be that high to be toxic to fish as well with only one HOB tbh.

It was on its side being sucked in the prefilter sponge, and now seeing this bubble there, made me question if there is a relation.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Lennie

[Colu]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:59 PM, Lennie said:

I got 2 of them on last Sunday and 2 another on monday after reading they like to be in groups. They were kinda skinny in the store so I fed the tank a bit heavily, also mainly due to they are juviniles and wanted to make sure mystery snails and pygmys not competing them. Today they got Sera Spirulina tabs as morning meal as their last meal. they constantly graze on catappa leaves and on plants/glass/rocks too.

So they have full belly since I got them all from the store and started feeding in my tank, idk specifically when I got them seperately, but all max in 3 days which means pretty new in any case.

Water temp is 25C and It is a 33g running with a AC50. I only add an airstone after water changes and if I see any sort of biofilm on top, I add it to break it. the tank is densely planted. I don't think the oxygen level would be that high to be toxic to fish as well with only one HOB tbh.

It was on its side being sucked in the prefilter sponge, and now seeing this bubble there, made me question if there is a relation.

 

It possible it was already weak when you got them though under feeding as you said they looked skinny the added stress of being bag and being bought home could have been  to much their also the possibility of a parasitic infections if they were under weight when you got I would keep a close eye on them if you notice any rapid breathing listlessness hanging near the surface flashing loss of appetite then I would treat with paracleanse 

[Lennie]

Thanks @Colu

I hope I don’t face any more losses. Considering if I should skip feeding them this evening, maybe they were super hungry and ate a lot :,) 

They spend max. 10 min in bag from store to my home, but yea it can be stressful anyway. I just drip acclimate them with stressguard all the time to help with it a lil bit for 45 min or so. There was something wrong with it def, but I don’t know what. 
 

I’ve just visited my LFS. All the ones they have looked healthy and they said they haven’t faced any issues. We checked the others together but couldn’t see anything similar on others. Just weird. 

[Odd Duck]

The bubble was likely gas produced after it passed away.  It’s also possible there could have been gas production before it passed that caused the death.  They can get “colic” or GI obstructions, torsions, other issues that could cause them to produce or retain a bubble of gas. It is almost certainly not from being stuck against the filter.  Much more likely getting stuck was a premonition of something going wrong inside the fish.

I think that fish undergo tremendous stresses as they move through the system of shipment from wherever they originated.  Just the fact they were skinny when you got them says a lot because you can be sure the store wasn’t skipping feeding them.  They were likely still recovering from shipping to the store from wherever in the world they came from, even if they were tank bred.  Sometimes losses happen, unfortunately.  In new fish, it isn’t your fault, only the fault of the system the fish have to go through to get to you.

[Lennie]

Many thanks @Odd Duck, 

It happened in minutes in front of me. They were all healthy, then I was doing the maintenance of my 29g in the same room, I checked what the guys are doing again after I was done with the 29g and found it flipped back on a plant leaf laying like that. touched it, and it fell down. It was pretty unexpected. they were moving from one leaf to another, seemed like enjoying the tank, eating normally, grazing around. That surprised me a lot.

Like no symptoms at all, acting like a normal healthy fish. That was weird.

Thanks a lot again for the explanations.

Anything I can do for the gas situation as a fishkeeper? I'm feeding either crushed pellets or bottom wafers spared into very small pieces so they get soaked and dusty easily, I bet they hardly trap any gas in them. I'm scared to feed other guys lol. Would overfeeding cause any harm until they get in shape?

[Odd Duck]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:14 AM, Lennie said:

Many thanks @Odd Duck, 

It happened in minutes in front of me. They were all healthy, then I was doing the maintenance of my 29g in the same room, I checked what the guys are doing again after I was done with the 29g and found it flipped back on a plant leaf laying like that. touched it, and it fell down. It was pretty unexpected. they were moving from one leaf to another, seemed like enjoying the tank, eating normally, grazing around. That surprised me a lot.

Like no symptoms at all, acting like a normal healthy fish. That was weird.

Thanks a lot again for the explanations.

Anything I can do for the gas situation as a fishkeeper? I'm feeding either crushed pellets or bottom wafers spared into very small pieces so they get soaked and dusty easily, I bet they hardly trap any gas in them. I'm scared to feed other guys lol. Would overfeeding cause any harm until they get in shape?

Probably not much you could do other than give them the best diet and nice clean water that you can.

It was likely a fluke thing, and passing that quickly with the gas bubble, I would suspect an intestinal torsion (twisted loop of bowel) or a liver lobe torsion (I don’t honestly know if fish get this).  Torsions of the gut cause massive blood flow problems to the affected bowel loop, toxins from the ever present gut bacteria build up fast, and death can occur very quickly.  Liver lobe torsions are incredibly painful and also can cause massive toxin build up, blood flow issues, etc.

Fish are very tough (pretty much the only way any imported fish gets to us alive) and hide their symptoms well.  So a fish will work hard to fool any predators around it that it’s fine or it would get immediately targeted for consumption.  They exhibit this behavior even if there is no predator.  It’s hardwired into them.  This makes sudden death fairly common, but the truth is, they are having issues well before they show symptoms, if they show any symptoms at all).

[Lennie]

On 2/22/2023 at 8:41 PM, Odd Duck said:

Probably not much you could do other than give them the best diet and nice clean water that you can.

It was likely a fluke thing, and passing that quickly with the gas bubble, I would suspect an intestinal torsion (twisted loop of bowel) or a liver lobe torsion (I don’t honestly know if fish get this).  Torsions of the gut cause massive blood flow problems to the affected bowel loop, toxins from the ever present gut bacteria build up fast, and death can occur very quickly.  Liver lobe torsions are incredibly painful and also can cause massive toxin build up, blood flow issues, etc.

Fish are very tough (pretty much the only way any imported fish gets to us alive) and hide their symptoms well.  So a fish will work hard to fool any predators around it that it’s fine or it would get immediately targeted for consumption.  They exhibit this behavior even if there is no predator.  It’s hardwired into them.  This makes sudden death fairly common, but the truth is, they are having issues well before they show symptoms, if they show any symptoms at all).

That was enlightening. Thanks a lot.

I will keep trying to do my best for them.