Would Pothos out compete other plants & active substrate question

[Ryan S.]

Starting a new aquascaped aquarium in my main room.  Trying active substrate for the first time.  For the scape I'm planning a tree root thing in the corner and was planning on using the Pothos roots I currently already have in the tank as part of it.

My question is... Will Pothos out compete my plants for the water column ferts?  I haven't made the change to the tank yet but currently the Pothos pretty much keeps nitrates at zero but I'm not dosing anything, only about 20 dwarf rainbows and a bristlenose pleco in there. 

My question on active substrate.  I have heard when putting in an active substrate it can take awhile for the cycle to really set in.  I am using stratum.  Is this still true if I'm able to put my two seeded filters on the tank after?  I assume this would help speed up the process but since I haven't done active substrate before, was curious.  I'll be monitoring it close and there is no rush.  

 

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

I don't use active substrate, but I have used pothos rooted in tanks. It can and it will out compete water colum feeders. If the roots make it to the substrate then it will outcompete root feeders too. Some of the factors that I have found to have an effect on the pothos are light levels, ambient temps and the fish themselves. If they don't get high light, they won't grow very fast or very big. So they'll be pulling less nutrients out of the water. Same for ambient temps/humidity. Cold &dry= slower smaller growth VS warm& humid= faster bigger growth. Some fish like to eat the roots too. The plants themselves have calcium oxalate crystals in their tissues for self defense. I know some people worry about that hurting their fish. Still, some eat at the roots. When that happens, it also hinders their ability to pull nutrients. Mine had high light, temps and humidity. They grew like crazy and eventually got nutrient deficiencies. This was resolved when I started using miracle grow in the tank (not a ton, it was a 125gal). 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Expectorating_Aubergine

[mynameisnobody]

Yes it absolutely does. It will also make your water crystal clear. There’s pro’s and con’s to it all. 

[BeeD]

It can, but I don't think it often does in most planted tanks. In a low tech tank, with a low bioload and no ferts, I've seen pothos stunt guppy grass growth. But right now I have low tech tanks with various plants and a ton of pothos, and I can't stop any of the plants from outgrowing their designated areas. So I think the lighting and nutrient levels will make the difference, and you said you're doing ferts so you probably have that handled. 

[knee]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:56 PM, Ryan S. said:

My question on active substrate.  I have heard when putting in an active substrate it can take awhile for the cycle to really set in.  I am using stratum.  Is this still true if I'm able to put my two seeded filters on the tank after?  I assume this would help speed up the process but since I haven't done active substrate before, was curious.  I'll be monitoring it close and there is no rush.  

Are you adding stratum to a tank with fish already? Or will this be a new tank?

Most aquasoils would release ammonia into the water and they would do so for a few weeks. I only know of Controsoil to not release ammonia when added to a tank.

The ammonia feeds the plants and that's why it's recommended to plant heavy in the beginning to avoid any massive algae blooms. If you're using seeded media, I'd just monitor the levels and keep ammonia between 2-3ppm (if there's no fish). Adding seeded media will not speed up the process of the soil releasing ammmonia, it will keep releasing ammonia for a few weeks until the soil is cycled.

[Ryan S.]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:10 PM, knee said:

Are you adding stratum to a tank with fish already? Or will this be a new tank?

Most aquasoils would release ammonia into the water and they would do so for a few weeks. I only know of Controsoil to not release ammonia when added to a tank.

The ammonia feeds the plants and that's why it's recommended to plant heavy in the beginning to avoid any massive algae blooms. If you're using seeded media, I'd just monitor the levels and keep ammonia between 2-3ppm (if there's no fish). Adding seeded media will not speed up the process of the soil releasing ammmonia, it will keep releasing ammonia for a few weeks until the soil is cycled.

Yeah, good clarification.  I am taking the fish out and will house them in my fish room while this is getting established so no worries there.  Was just trying to get an idea of how long I should expect.  I'm used to doing things pretty quickly with seeded media being available, but figured this might be different.  Luckily I don't need to rush things so that is good info.  I will just keep my test strips handy and let it do its thing.  Hopefully without a crazy amount of algae.  I haven't pulled the trigger on going full CO2, but maybe thats where I end up if I cant get things going like I want them too.  Thanks for the info!

[knee]

On 2/20/2023 at 11:09 AM, Ryan S. said:

Yeah, good clarification.  I am taking the fish out and will house them in my fish room while this is getting established so no worries there.  Was just trying to get an idea of how long I should expect.  I'm used to doing things pretty quickly with seeded media being available, but figured this might be different.  Luckily I don't need to rush things so that is good info.  I will just keep my test strips handy and let it do its thing.  Hopefully without a crazy amount of algae.  I haven't pulled the trigger on going full CO2, but maybe thats where I end up if I cant get things going like I want them too.  Thanks for the info!

This could still work without co2. You just need to monitor closely and do a water change if necessary. 
 

I’d definitely keep ammonia below 2ppm to be on the safe side. 

[jwcarlson]

Yes, it will.  If you're in a high bioload situation, it's a great nitrogen sponge.  I have been able to dose liquid ferts to desired level, but mostly by nature of limiting the light my pothos get.  In my discus tank I put it right under the light.  My nitrates basically stay at zero.  It's just the pothos, a small philodendron, and a wandering... dude that snaked down and dropped a root through the seam between lid and top of the tank... and some anubias.  

They provide a neat background and something cool to look at in an otherwise kind of boring tank for my discus.  Considering how messy I fed these fish, I'm kind of surprised how clean the root are.  I usually use my hand to blast water through the roots every week or so.  I am doing nightly water changes, though, so consider that.  They will grow into the coarse filters if you let them.  And I am starting to find some root chunks in my HOB, so I think it occasionally snakes on in there and it gets amputated by the impeller.

The one I have in the community tank is a lot less impressive with roots because I basically don't give it any light.  Grows very slow, roots not as large.

 

 

 

Regarding aqua soil.  I have Fluval Stratum in three tanks.  The first was just straight stratum.  I don't hate it, but I also don't necessarily love it.  I never noticed any spike in nutrients or anything.  But I also heavily planted it at roughly the same time I put the fish in, maybe a week before... so perhaps they ate all that up.  The other two tanks I have stratum capped with something (sand or gravel and then sand)... that's the way to go in my opinion.  As a side note, I've liked it so much that the next planted tank I set up will be dirted with a 3" pool filter or play sand cap.  It even makes planting the plants easier in my opinion.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by jwcarlson

[mynameisnobody]

@jwcarlson agreed 100%.

 If they are growing then it is pulling nutrients from somewhere. 

[jwcarlson]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:43 PM, mynameisnobody said:

@jwcarlson agreed 100%.

 If they are growing then it is pulling nutrients from somewhere. 

The cool thing is it's limited in it's ability to pull nutrients by lighting (in my experience) or, with ample light, it will basically pull everything out of the water column (within reason).  That beats the snot out of my amazon swords that appear to need handfed every few weeks or they melt back half of their progress.  The pothos just kind of pauses.  The one on my discus tank would probably be enormous if there was anything in the water for it to feed on in excess.

[mynameisnobody]

@jwcarlson I didn’t know that, thanks for the tip. 

[jwcarlson]

@mynameisnobody This is highly unscientific, I just have a couple handfuls of pothos and they're all cutting clones of a plant that was in rough shape when I inherited it from someone who inherited it from someone else at my last job.  It's done pretty well with limited office lighting and has recovered nicely, though it does occasionally lose a leaf.  So maybe it and its clones are just happy to be alive so they don't cause much fuss? 😄

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Matt Armstrong]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:56 PM, Ryan S. said:

Will Pothos out compete my plants for the water column ferts?

When I was dosing ferts using the EI method (which basically aggressively replenishes water column ferts often), and had plants growing in an aquasoil substrate, but no CO2, the submersed plants were still growing fine despite a sizable Pothos growing quickly out the top as well. When I kinda got bored maintaining that tank and stopped dosing ferts consistently, and the aquasoil became depleted, the only plants that survived were Anubias and the Pothos, and the growth of both slowed considerably. Even the Java ferns eventually melted away, leaving only Anubias and the Pothos roots in the water.

[Ryan S.]

This has all been very helpful.  Sounds like I may just need to start out at least without the pothos as a part of my plans and then monitor and adjust from there if I think the tank can handle it.  I'd rather my plants in the tank get what they need then add to the cool roots effect I was going for.  Thank you everyone for the info.... greatly appreciated.  

[Matt Armstrong]

Forgot to mention that I do agree with @jwcarlson with respect to Pothos lighting. If your tank is in a dark corner the Pothos will be light limited, and won't be able to suck as much nutrients. I've got a Pothos (planted in soil) in a fairly dark room and it grows slowly. Good luck!

[Furbs]

I’m finding getting light to my pothos to be a bigger issue than adding more ferts. 

[Ryan S.]

Thanks for the advice on both topics.  This is the setup I am starting out with.  Went ahead and pulled the Pothos as I want to monitor levels without it for awhile.  Those can easily go into my fish room tanks.  Heres to hoping for success!