Bolivian ram sunken belly 😢

[knee]

One of my boys has had a sunken belly ever since I got him. I had him on quarantine for a few weeks because I wanted to beef him up before putting him in the main tank. I didn’t medicate when I was doing quarantine because all my males are tankmates at the LFS and the other three are doing amazing.

The only difference with him is that his color improved and his fins look nicer but still with a sunken belly. I moved him back to my 5g hospital tank for now

 

for meds I only have Kanaplex and Metroplex. 

[jwcarlson]

I'd worm him with levamisole (in a bare bottom if possible).  I think Expel P is levamisole.  For my discus I do day 1, 5, and 13 (24 hour bath) with wiping sides/bottoms and through cleaning after each 24 hour treatment.  

For my community tanks with substrate I just do as good of a job as I can doing vacuum 24 hours after treatment.  

The levamisole just paralyzes the worms, in theory the fish will pass them, and you suck them up off the bottom.  It doesn't effect eggs, so you need to do a few treatments to cover the life cycle.  I've started worming all of my new fish, it's not worth the risk and sometimes the effects don't show for months if you're introducing them to your existing tanks.

 

Is he eating?

Edited February 17, 2023 by jwcarlson

[knee]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:46 PM, jwcarlson said:

Is he eating?

Yes. He’s a pig honestly. That’s why I thought in the beginning that he was just skinny and needed some extra attention during feedings. 
 

I have another 5g that I can make into a bare bottom tank. I’ll check for some expel P at my lfs probably tomorrow after work. 
 

Do I need 5g for the bath or can it be in a smaller container?

[jwcarlson]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:52 PM, knee said:

Yes. He’s a pig honestly. That’s why I thought in the beginning that he was just skinny and needed some extra attention during feedings. 
 

I have another 5g that I can make into a bare bottom tank. I’ll check for some expel P at my lfs probably tomorrow after work. 
 

Do I need 5g for the bath or can it be in a smaller container?

You could do a smaller container, the issue would be measuring the dose.  I think the Expel P packets are for 10 gallons.  I would set something up that he can stay in for the two weeks, personally.  And you should also treat any other fish that are with him.  I've used levamisole with shrimp and snails, it's not a problem if that's an issue.  

It's good that he's eating.  Levamisole can sometimes knock them off food for a bit.  But I've only ever experienced that with discus.  Everything else seems to want to keep on eating.

I do cover the tank for the 24 hours as well.  And kill any tank lights.  

If it's easier to treat him in-tank that's perfectly OK as well.  It might just be harder to shake the worms.  In my experience the fish bounce back really quickly.  In truth, fish probably mostly always have parasites, but stress can cause a disruption and they can start losing the battle.  So it's more about getting the parasitic load down to a manageable level for the fish vs. complete elimination which is probably impossible.

[knee]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:57 PM, jwcarlson said:

You could do a smaller container, the issue would be measuring the dose.  I think the Expel P packets are for 10 gallons.  I would set something up that he can stay in for the two weeks, personally.  And you should also treat any other fish that are with him.  I've used levamisole with shrimp and snails, it's not a problem if that's an issue.  

It's good that he's eating.  Levamisole can sometimes knock them off food for a bit.  But I've only ever experienced that with discus.  Everything else seems to want to keep on eating.

I do cover the tank for the 24 hours as well.  And kill any tank lights.  

If it's easier to treat him in-tank that's perfectly OK as well.  It might just be harder to shake the worms.  In my experience the fish bounce back really quickly.  In truth, fish probably mostly always have parasites, but stress can cause a disruption and they can start losing the battle.  So it's more about getting the parasitic load down to a manageable level for the fish vs. complete elimination which is probably impossible.

He’s eating and he even wants to spawn with one of the females 😂

 

I’ll use the 5g so it’s easier to measure the dose. There’s not expel p available to me. Is there other brands that I can use in replacement? The only thing available to me locally is Pimafix, Melafix, metroplex and Kanaplex 

I could buy online but I want to see if there’s something that I can get right away  

 

[jwcarlson]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:05 PM, knee said:

He’s eating and he even wants to spawn with one of the females 😂

 

I’ll use the 5g so it’s easier to measure the dose. There’s not expel p available to me. Is there other brands that I can use in replacement? The only thing available to me locally is Pimafix, Melafix, metroplex and Kanaplex 

I could buy online but I want to see if there’s something that I can get right away  

 

I'm unaware if there's other options.  I just have pure levamisole powder and a tiny gram scale so I can measure the dose.  I believe Odd Duck uses a cattle wormer, let me see if I can find that thread for you.  Farm store might have it near you.  I've got gobs of the stuff, but I doubt you live in Iowa. 😄

 

Odd Duck starts posting somewhere here on the first page:

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:46 PM, jwcarlson said:

For my community tanks with substrate I just do as good of a job as I can doing vacuum 24 hours after treatment. 

This.

With internal worms you're treating the tank as much as anything else.  I would follow Odd_Ducks' recommended schedule for parasites as it works extremely well for a thorough job and this looks like a pretty gnarly issue.  It could be a deformity, but yeah.... something is going on.  @jwcarlson please feel free to comment and clarify anything I may have misspoken about.

Continue treatment for 3-4 weeks, longer for a more severe infestation.  OD recommends 6.

Day 1: Expel-P, black out tank for 24 hours (it's broken down by light)
Day 2: Water change, thorough siphon cleaning, then dose in Salt+Paracleanse
Day 3-6: Follow directions on paracleanse. Finish with a good siphon and water change.
Day 7: rest.

Repeat that weekly (or every other week) as you see fit.

[knee]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:14 PM, jwcarlson said:

I'm unaware if there's other options.  I just have pure levamisole powder and a tiny gram scale so I can measure the dose.  I believe Odd Duck uses a cattle wormer, let me see if I can find that thread for you.  Farm store might have it near you.  I've got gobs of the stuff, but I doubt you live in Iowa. 😄

 

Odd Duck starts posting somewhere here on the first page:

 

 

I’d probably have to order it then. Is there anything I can do to make the fish feel better before the meds arrive? Like using aquarium salt? 

[knee]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

This.

With internal worms you're treating the tank as much as anything else.  I would follow Odd_Ducks' recommended schedule for parasites as it works extremely well for a thorough job and this looks like a pretty gnarly issue.  It could be a deformity, but yeah.... something is going on.  @jwcarlson please feel free to comment and clarify anything I may have misspoken about.

Continue treatment for 3-4 weeks, longer for a more severe infestation.  OD recommends 6.

Day 1: Expel-P, black out tank for 24 hours (it's broken down by light)
Day 2: Water change, thorough siphon cleaning, then dose in Salt+Paracleanse
Day 3-6: Follow directions on paracleanse. Finish with a good siphon and water change.
Day 7: rest.

Repeat that weekly (or every other week) as you see fit.

I just ordered and they’ll arrive here on Saturday. Should I do 100% water change?

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:25 PM, knee said:

Should I do 100% water change?

Nope. Just do a really good siphon to get the substrate as clean as you can. 

[knee]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:43 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Nope. Just do a really good siphon to get the substrate as clean as you can. 

Understood. Thank you both @nabokovfan87 and @jwcarlson

 

I'll check this thread again when the meds arrive on Saturday.

[jwcarlson]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:25 PM, knee said:

I just ordered and they’ll arrive here on Saturday. Should I do 100% water change?

Nah, if it's bare bottom you'll be able to get it clean pretty quick.  Just whatever it takes to suck everything up.  Would recommend not feeding during the bath to help make it easier to clean.  Might be harder if it's got substrate.  I also do one tablespoon of epsom salt per 10 gallons during the 24 hour levamisole.  

[jwcarlson]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

This.

With internal worms you're treating the tank as much as anything else.  I would follow Odd_Ducks' recommended schedule for parasites as it works extremely well for a thorough job and this looks like a pretty gnarly issue.  It could be a deformity, but yeah.... something is going on.  @jwcarlson please feel free to comment and clarify anything I may have misspoken about.

Continue treatment for 3-4 weeks, longer for a more severe infestation.  OD recommends 6.

Day 1: Expel-P, black out tank for 24 hours (it's broken down by light)
Day 2: Water change, thorough siphon cleaning, then dose in Salt+Paracleanse
Day 3-6: Follow directions on paracleanse. Finish with a good siphon and water change.
Day 7: rest.

Repeat that weekly (or every other week) as you see fit.

There are absolute GOBS of different schedules.  I think the main thing is... it's going to take 3-4 treatments.  It takes siphoning the bottom really well.  And it takes a bit of time and effort to knock the worm load down.

I don't know paracleanse is that the metro/prazi compound?  I don't think it will hurt anything and it covers some more bases for flukes and tape worms.  And hexamita.  

Good mentioning the light, I'm not sure if I mentioned that above.  Some of my tanks in the basement get zero light so I don't bother covering them, but the discus tank always gets double blankets and really blank them out.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:00 PM, jwcarlson said:

I also do one tablespoon of epsom salt per 10 gallons during the 24 hour levamisole.  

I've heard of issues mixing Epsom salt and normal aquarium salt. Do you use just the one or do epsom baths? How do you handle it?

[jwcarlson]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:01 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I've heard of issues mixing Epsom salt and normal aquarium salt. Do you use just the one or do epsom baths? How do you handle it?

Have done both in my discus (1 tbs each per 10 gallons).  So not a very high dose really.  But I'm also only doing that for 24 hours and then it's getting a big water change.

[Colu]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:01 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I've heard of issues mixing Epsom salt and normal aquarium salt. Do you use just the one or do epsom baths? How do you handle it?

Epsom salt and aquarium salt are safe to use together from what I have read you shouldn't get a negative interaction between the two

[knee]

@jwcarlson @nabokovfan87 

I finished three treatments of the Expel - P and the sunken belly has disappeared. I also forgot to mention that before I did the first treatment, I added two more fish to the hospital tank because they had sunken belly as well and was not eating. 

I tried to vacuum the substrate as well as I can but on the second treatment, I did a water change after 36 hours but definitely not more than 48. (some stuff came up and needed to be prioritized). 

The original fish is doing better now and still has the same appetite. Poop looks like regular fish poop. The other two still doesn't eat pellets. They only ate when I fed them live blackworms but I never see them eat anything else. 

Should I do another set of treatment for them?

[jwcarlson]

Glad to hear at least one is doing better.  Are they all Rams?  Some fish will be put off of food with levamisole.  My discus would mostly quit eating for awhile.  So I would say give them a couple weeks before doing anything else. 

Just a side note, if one fish in the tank has a heavy parasite load, they probably all do.  I wouldn't remove one fish to treat it separately.  You are just playing whack-a-mole at that point and another will probably eventually show signs. 

So... I would give them a couple weeks to recover.  Don't need to constantly bombard them with food.  Let them get hungry, most fish you can kind of tell when they're back ready to eat. 

Levamisole is not a catch all for all parasites, unfortunately.  So it could still be something else. 

Got any pictures of the recovering ram and/or the other fish with issues? 

[knee]

On 3/6/2023 at 1:42 PM, jwcarlson said:

Got any pictures of the recovering ram and/or the other fish with issues? 

I could take some later and will also post a video so you can observe them easier. 

I would treat the tank that they came in but that tank is really heavily planted and I know that I'll only be able to vacuum 30% of the substrate which will most likely defeat the purpose of treating the tank. The other fish in that tank are really greedy and all of them have fat bellies.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/6/2023 at 1:32 PM, knee said:

@jwcarlson @nabokovfan87 

I finished three treatments of the Expel - P and the sunken belly has disappeared. I also forgot to mention that before I did the first treatment, I added two more fish to the hospital tank because they had sunken belly as well and was not eating. 

I tried to vacuum the substrate as well as I can but on the second treatment, I did a water change after 36 hours but definitely not more than 48. (some stuff came up and needed to be prioritized). 

The original fish is doing better now and still has the same appetite. Poop looks like regular fish poop. The other two still doesn't eat pellets. They only ate when I fed them live blackworms but I never see them eat anything else. 

Should I do another set of treatment for them?

Seems like a bad case so I'd lean more toward the 6 treatments that Odd Duck recommends than the typical 3-4 to be sure it's fully cured for all the fish in the tank. 

You're pulling them from the tank, so I can't be certain what else is going on.  At some point it might make sense to put all the rams into the QT tank and monitor anything left in the display as well as a thorough clean for a few days straight.