Jump to content

URGENT! guppies died right after waterchange


evonner
 Share

Recommended Posts

What is your parameters for the tank and for the tap.  Please specifically test for ammonia and PH among whatever else you can test for. 

Likely culprit is missing dechlorinator, especially with this rapidness to the deaths.  Second culprit is probably temperature.  Third, less likely, could be issues with water parameters in your tap changing (especially something you can't test for).

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing drastically changed except pH but it comes from from tap at 7.2 and after wc 7.4 then in a week is 8.2 but they are used to this. I have one left, he keep free floating like hhis dead then swing then acts dead. He is in quartenine with salt and two air stones. I don't know what else to do. All parameters are within normal at all points

I didn't forget the dechlorinator. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At different times and of the year your water company can flush the pipes with large amounts of chloramines it's possible you under dosed your dechlorinator or it could be temperature shock if the water you added back in was a lot colder what I would do is add a double dose of your dechlorinator at this point it's a case of wait and see if he pulls though @evonner

Edited by Colu
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspected that and also tested for it, it was negative.  It had to have been the pH, its the only plausible explanation. So lesson I've learned today, sadly, is to test my water parameters before I put it in my tank but with my bigger tanks where I use a python, I'm not sure how I'm going to that. I really don't know how that will work except to ensure that my water changes are ok at the most minimal % per week so that it cant affect my fish like that if there happens to be a change in my tap. I'm still baffled though because my established tanks run a pH at 8.2. My tap is 7.2, I have had to quarantine at lower pH levels (7.4) before with fish accustomed to 8.2 and I have never, ever seen what I saw today. They were not sick. I am on community well water and we just had a major snow storm yesterday but I bottled this water a week ago as I always do for that tank, so I just don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve never personally experienced this, but it seems to me to be an environmental factor seeing as it affected multiple fish all at the same time. 
 

I’m not on a well, and considering you are, and had a snow storm, I feel like those factors may be at play. You said you bottled it a week ago, so maybe not, though? Are you sure you dechlorinated when you bottled the water?
 

For what it’s worth, I’ve never tested my tap water prior to putting it in any of my 15 tanks in the 3 years I’ve had them and have never had an issue with water changes. 
 

I’m sorry you’re going through this. Hopefully as a community we can figure out what happened. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I am absolutely sure I dechlorinated. I know this is usually the case in events like this. For this particular tank, I prep my water before I start anything. I'm going to look back at some log books and see what other pH readings were right after a w.c., I don't typically test right after but I have in the past so I need to go look at those logs and do some research. I use color coded buckets and only one each of a different color or clean in, dirty out and another for sanitizing. I rinse them, let them air dry then bag them to prevent contaminates for accidently getting in the buckets. I follow an exact system. 

What about a mineral change in my tap, like salts??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/15/2023 at 7:57 PM, evonner said:

What about a mineral change in my tap, like salts??

My initial thought is that most plants and most fish would prefer some minerals/salts. I don’t think this would be a problem/I’m not sure how you would actually trace this to being a problem. Considering it was Guppies that passed, they shouldn’t have an issue with minerals and/or salts. 
 

On 2/15/2023 at 7:57 PM, evonner said:

I use color coded buckets and only one each of a different color or clean in, dirty out and another for sanitizing.

Maybe some buckets got mixed up? Maybe there’s an external factor/contaminant that entered the tank? Is there any other inhabitants besides the Guppies in the tank? I’m trying to figure out if other inhabitants were unaffected or if it was just the Guppies in the tank and all of them had the issue. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ding, ding ding. I just signed on the tell you guys that I believe I know what happened. I was running down pH shock (my pH always drops to 7.4 after w.c.) when I came across co2 shock, as I was reading about this, I put some things together. Yes, I run an HOB filter and sponge filter with an airstone. Perfect, right. No, when I feed my guppies last night (only habitats with plants) I turned down my filter flow and turn off the sponge so that they can eat their food not chase it (I always do this). I forgot to turn the sponge back on and turn the HOB flow back up. The combination of this, not waiting long enough to do the water change after fixing the flows this morning. I think while I was cleaning, the co2 built up to unsafe levels. I think they were suffocating before I added the new water because they like to play in the stream when I pour the water in. It's a game we played but they didn't today. I did a mental note, that it was abnormal. I also changed the light a week ago to a lower efficiency light so I could use their full spectrum on my new tank. This equals co2 shock and the symptoms they had are consistent with co2 shock right to a T. I don't run co2 but plants make it and I screwed up. A hard and sad lesson learned. I hope this helps others and no one makes this mistake. 

 

  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2023 at 5:20 AM, evonner said:

hope this helps others and no one makes this mistake.

Wow - I have the same setup on my 15 gallon (1 HOB and a sponge filter with airstone). I'm really sorry this happened to you. I can totally see myself doing the same thing. I'm impressed by your sleuthing skills.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/15/2023 at 5:08 PM, evonner said:

Nothing drastically changed except pH but it comes from from tap at 7.2 and after wc 7.4 then in a week is 8.2 but they are used to this. I have one left, he keep free floating like hhis dead then swing then acts dead. He is in quartenine with salt and two air stones. I don't know what else to do. All parameters are within normal at all points

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't forget the dechlorinator. 

don't be obnoxious if you want help.

 

It is almost certainly NOT co2 shock; if the flow was sufficiently low it could be ammonia poisoning. But you said all the parameters were fine (everyone seems to say this when their fish die). Did you test ammonia; did you test nitrite; did you check the temp? If everything was 'fine' then they wouldn't have died so somehting was obviously off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, lots of questions to answer. 

I run an HOB filter with custom media rated more GPH than for the size of the tank. I run it at 100% and a biological sponge filter with an airstone. These run 24/7 unless I'm doing a water change and I turn off the airstone and turn down the HOB flow when I feed them. I turn everything back to normal 5 minutes after feeding with the exception of that day. The night before this tragedy occurred, I fed them before bed and forgot to turn on the airstone in the bio sponge filter and turn up the HOB. My lights are on a timer. The next day before the water change, I saw that I forgot to turn them back on. I turned them on and started my water change about an hour later. I prepare my new water (from tap, bottled water, aired for 24 hrs., week old) in a bucket with dechlorinator (Seachem Prime), 1 full dose of Easy Green liquid and 1/2 dose of Seachem Stress Guard. This is my weekly routine.

The water change was 40%. I do not run an airstone during water changes but recently watched some videos that led me to believe that I should be.

@anewbie  I tested before (I always test before w.c.) the water change, Ammonia was 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 40, dGH 14, dKH 8 and phosphate 1.  During the water change I did observe a behavior that was not normal. When I add the new water into the tank, I pour it in from the bucket with a 4 cup measuring cup. When I pour it in, my guppies like to dash through the stream I'm pouring. They always do this, its our thing. But they did not do that this day. My equipment I use it dedicated as fish equipment and is not used for personal or washed with soap. So, I realized something was wrong shortly after the water change. I found 2 guppies dead, another struggling at the top for air and floating sideways lethargic. I immediately rushed the rest of the fish to my quarantine tank with airstones and started running water test on the tank. So my result after the water change were ammonia 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.4 (I looked back at previous logs where I tested before my w.c. and 3 hrs after and that pH is normal as my tap is at 7.2) Nitrate 20, dGH 16, dKH 7, Chlorine 0. Yes, checked temp, 78. I realize ammonia or nitrite seems as the obvious or that I forgot the dechlorinator but I didnt and how could ammonia or nitrite be true when levels were 0 before and after? What would kill them so fast?

The tank is not heavily planted by adequately planted. The lights are on a timer of 8 hrs on, so 16 hrs off.

Ok, I think that covers all the questions. I'm open to any feedback.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I want to add one more thing. I tested that tank today and my results are pH 8.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, dGH 16 and dKH 7. My tap water (previously tested), aged for 24 hours is pH 7.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.0, Phosphate 1.0, dGH 12, and dKH 9. @anewbie Do you think it matters to run test on my tap today?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/18/2023 at 8:48 PM, evonner said:

I run an HOB filter with custom media rated more GPH than for the size of the tank. I run it at 100% and a biological sponge filter with an airstone. These run 24/7 unless I'm doing a water change and I turn off the airstone and turn down the HOB flow when I feed them. I turn everything back to normal 5 minutes after feeding with the exception of that day. The night before this tragedy occurred, I fed them before bed and forgot to turn on the airstone in the bio sponge filter and turn up the HOB.

If you can. Show us the setup please.

I'm assuming it's a HoB with an air stone to help with the bacteria doing well and provide some oxygenation. You basically never need to (or should) turn off the air. Just let it run even during changes. I usually have the air stone in the tank for that reason so I can take my time with cleaning and trimming. Entirely up to you on your setup, but I believe you should be able to just run air without issue.

You can turn off the HoBs for 15-20 minutes with feeding without issues. I do it all the time. On the kasa plugs it's a great feature to have the timer--turn on function for that.

The secondary failsafe is to have a schedule set repeated to turn the filters on at various times just in case you forget. Like say midnight, turn it on. Just in case it's accidentally left off.

On 2/18/2023 at 8:48 PM, evonner said:

I turned them on and started my water change about an hour later. I prepare my new water (from tap, bottled water, aired for 24 hrs., week old) in a bucket with dechlorinator (Seachem Prime), 1 full dose of Easy Green liquid and 1/2 dose of Seachem Stress Guard. This is my weekly routine.

Sounds good. Be careful using prime and stress guard together. Both will remove oxygen from the water (most dechlorinators do this).

 

On 2/18/2023 at 8:55 PM, evonner said:

Oh I want to add one more thing. I tested that tank today and my results are pH 8.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, dGH 16 and dKH 7. My tap water (previously tested), aged for 24 hours is pH 7.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.0, Phosphate 1.0, dGH 12, and dKH 9. @anewbie Do you think it matters to run test on my tap today?

You should just in case something weird happened, especially with a catastrophic event like this. Aerate it for 24 hours, then test everything and compare that to the tank or your prep container. That's what the tank should be seeing. If not, you're dosing in buffers or you're basically at the point of old tank syndrome and causing some stress that way.

On 2/18/2023 at 8:48 PM, evonner said:

So my result after the water change were ammonia 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.4 (I looked back at previous logs where I tested before my w.c. and 3 hrs after and that pH is normal as my tap is at 7.2) Nitrate 20, dGH 16, dKH 7, Chlorine 0. Yes, checked temp, 78. I realize ammonia or nitrite seems as the obvious or that I forgot the dechlorinator but I didnt and how could ammonia or nitrite be true when levels were 0 before and after? What would kill them so fast?

8.2 vs 7.4 pH is a big swing. Keep in mind it's an exponential scale. Going from 7.4 to 7.5 is 10x greater and so on.

Your water might gain PH from aging, so we need to test.

The second question is basically, what do the fish in the tank need, 7.4 or 8.0+?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to take a picture but my lights are off. The HOB is on one side of the tank. A bio sponge filter with an airstone inside runs on the other side of the tank. It is an established tank. Its been running for a year and a half. It only housed guppies and plants. So, pH of 8.0 but they never had a problem with the 8.2, it always is 7.4 after a water change but then goes up to 8.2. I cant get it down. I've tried and decided that chasing my numbers wasn't worth it. I use driftwood and almond leaves, it doesn't budge from 8.2 I will run the tap test and see what comes of that. I will get back after I have competed the tests. Thank you.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@nabokovfan87

@anewbie 

I have been running different variations/sceniors of tests on my tap water (community city well) and I have a problem. I need to run more senaniors but I discovered something that concerns me. I dont believe this killed my guppies but......  all of tap water testing from 2021 through 2023 have never had ammonia on the tests but I do now (.25) but not in the testing of any tank water that the guppies were housed in. On 1/5/23, their was an unsafe PSI drop on one of the city wells that happened to affect my water supply. This city issued a boil order for 24 hours while samples were sent to the state lab for contamination. I tested my tap after this boil order was issued just to see if anything was slightly different. They werent, I tested the day of and day after. After 24 hours the city said the lab said the water was not contaiminated and lifted the boil order. 

I ran tests on 2/22/23 straight from tap, cold water. I didnt test for ammonia because I did not suspect it as no ammonia had been detected in the guppy tank, ever. I was mostly focused on pH issues, nitrate levels, dGH and dKH. They were consistent will prior tests. Then I filled my water-in bucket and added an airstone to it for 48 hrs to mimic the guppy tanks pH. After 48 hours aeration, I tested everything and discovered the ammonia in my water. Then I tested for ammonia right out of my tap, and detectected the same level of ammonina. I then added prime to the water-in bucket with the airstone and tested it 2 hours later. It also detected 0.25 ppm ammonia but slightly lighter, somewhere between 0-0.25. So what this tells me is the city is treating the water with chlorine and ammonia because ammonia has never been in my tap water prior to this.

I say this could not have caused the deaths of the guppies as I prepare my water-in bucket with prime before I even begin my testing and water change. So the prime would have binded the ammonia for at least 24 hours and the tank always tested at 0 ammonia.  

This is my concern: I just restocked the guppy tank with new guppies and slightly stocked my new 29 gallon tank that I use a phython and I put a foam plate in the tank with the prime on it and then start filling the tank, pouring the water over the foam plate. I am concerned that by doing this, the prime doesnt have enough time to bind the ammonia that is in my tap water. My nitrogen cycle and plants are doing their job in all three tanks obviously as the tanks do not have any ammonia in them. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. Im considering buckets with a pump so that I can treat the water before it goes into the 29 gallon tank. I dont want to put in a RO system as my tap has good parameters with the except of this now ammonia in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@nabokovfan87 and @anewbie might have different thoughts from me, but here’s what I would do. 
 

1. I wouldn’t do anything besides use a water conditioner. A well-established aquarium should be able to process 0.25 ammonia like it’s nothing. Even at 100% water change that would only be 0.25 ammonia and the tank should handle that. If you’re doing partial water changes that 0.25 gets diluted even further and shouldn’t be an issue. 
 

2. Use Prime in the water just before you change it into the tank. By using the Prime right before your water change you will get the most out of the 24 binding affect that it has.
 

Just my two cents and what I would personally do.  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/25/2023 at 1:48 AM, evonner said:

It also detected 0.25 ppm ammonia but slightly lighter, somewhere between 0-0.25. So what this tells me is the city is treating the water with chlorine and ammonia because ammonia has never been in my tap water prior to this.

Chloramine can show up on a test strip as ammonia.  Which would require a slightly higher dose of prime.  Potentially.  This may or may not be helpful for you, but something to keep in mind.

 From Seachem:

Quote

I tested my tap water after using Prime® and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine?

A: Prime® works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime® will not halt your cycling process.

I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our MultiTest Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime® dissipates from your system within 24 hours.

 

On 2/25/2023 at 7:48 AM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

@nabokovfan87 and @anewbie might have different thoughts from me, but here’s what I would do. 
 

1. I wouldn’t do anything besides use a water conditioner. A well-established aquarium should be able to process 0.25 ammonia like it’s nothing. Even at 100% water change that would only be 0.25 ammonia and the tank should handle that. If you’re doing partial water changes that 0.25 gets diluted even further and shouldn’t be an issue. 
 

2. Use Prime in the water just before you change it into the tank. By using the Prime right before your water change you will get the most out of the 24 binding affect that it has.
 

Just my two cents and what I would personally do.  

Prime works for up to 24 hours.  So even if you're reading ammonia, see the FAQ above. It's chloramines and being binded.  All fine.

Bubbles on the surface and other indications help to ID ammonia issues as well (true ammonia not ammonium)

Edited by nabokovfan87
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On my 10 gallon guppy tank, its not an issue because I can use buckets and treat the water before I start my water change. Buckets are hard with the 29 gallon because its 19" tall plus on a tall stand and I am a short person.  But if treating my tap water in a bucket before adding it to my tank would be safer then I can do that, it will just take more time but I prefer safety over less time.

@nabokovfan87 FYI- I do use API liquid tests. Dip stick type of test I rarely use and never with my weekly testing or testing when there is a problem.  My biological filtration is removing the ammonia right away because no ammonia shows up on the tank water tests.

 

@AllFishNoBrakes I didnt understand #2, are you saying to put the prime in my tank then start filling it? It was my understanding that prime works best when adding it to your clean water and allowing it to set for a little bit to make sure it has time to do its binding. But Ive also heard that it works immediately. Thats the beauty of this hobby, everyone says something different, lol.

Is there a test available that will tell you if the ammonia is ammonia or ammonium?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounded like you aged your water before adding to the tank. If that’s true, I would personally add the Prime to the aged container right before putting it in your tank. If it’s not true, apologies for my misunderstanding. 
 

For my small tanks that I use buckets for water changes I’ll put my conditioner in as I’m filling the bucket in the sink and have never had a problem. For my bigger tanks that I use the Python for, I’ll squirt the dechlorinator in as soon as the water starts coming out of the Python and again have never had an issue. I also dose for the entire volume of the tank, and not just the new water going in. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You didnt misunderstand. I do bottle my tap and air it for 24 hours before I seal it but that is only for my 10 gallon tank that I use buckets for.  My new 29 gallon tank I use a python and that type of system is new to me. I only worry about it now with the discovery of the ammonia in my tap water.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...