Betta fin problem

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

To get right to the point: I think something is wrong with my tank that causes a fin problem.

I have been treating for fin rot but I’m not going to call it that. I will call it a fin problem. Because I don’t see dark or red edges.
 

Phase 1: moved betta to qt. 1 T salt/5 g

Successful recovery. Moved back to his tank. Within several days, issue returned.

Phase 2: moved betta to qt. Kanaplex according to package instructions. The salt was still in the qt water.

Successful recovery. Moved back to his tank. Within 24 HOURS, issue returned.

I’ve taken a bunch of steps to ensure there is nothing sharp in the tank. Parameters are 0/0/5. Temp 80. PH 7.5 kH 80 gH 180. 

Describing the tank-

ACO heater. Has heater guard so no burning issues would occur.

Sponge filter

River rock. Did the fizz test. Rock is safe.

Swim-thru rock. Store bought. Resin.

PVC tunnel, diy swim-thru. Bought at hardware store.

Dwarf sag- made a bunch of runners and was doing awesome for awhile but for the most part is dying/turning clear/ melting.

Crypt wendtii 

Sword plant

Anacharis

Long pothos stem w/ leaves, added directly to tank. Was outside on porch. Gave it a rinse first, rubbed leaves in my fingers under tap water.

Indian almond leaf tea gets added to the water. ACO leaves. 3 c go into a gallon jug and that is topped with dechlorinated water and used for the water changes. A whole almond leaf is also in the water.

Using Prime as a dechlorinator. 

Has one tank mate, a king Koopa nerite snail.

Water changes are once a week.

Why, when I move him back into this tank, does the issue return so quickly? What is wrong with the tank?

Some photos from the last 2 weeks or so. Issue before phase 1 (salt):

After salt. 
 

looking good for the most part but started seeing the dorsal fin split:

After phase 2 (Kanaplex)- this was yesterday:

That was yesterday. Nice fullness to dorsal.

Now look today:

 

@dasaltemelosguy - pothos toxin?

@Odd Duck @xXInkedPhoenixX @Colu

What else can I do to make this tank safe?!

Edited February 11, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Some other thoughts

could my light be too bright causing stress?

is the detritus from the nerite causing an issue? It tends be be scattered about the substrate throughout the week until I do the water change, then I suck up as much as I can.

Eh.. pothos wasn’t introduced until after issue was in progress.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

Possibility he could have  been flaring at his reflection that would cause already injured fins to split @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/11/2023 at 8:14 AM, Colu said:

Possibility he could have  been flaring at his reflection that would cause already injured fins to split @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

I never thought of that! He absolutely did several flares, at me and at the nerite. Some days he is feisty.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I agree too much stress and flaring can be an issue. Figure out the stressor. Light can be an issue but I'd probably try that last. Check for reflections. Don't try too many things at once you risk more stress and not knowing which was the problem. Bacteria is a big factor in fin issues and heated tanks which Betta require kind of foster that. This is why I don't leave Catappa in the tank (my own paranoia). You might also check other "dirty" sources.

Edited February 11, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 2/11/2023 at 3:27 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

@dasaltemelosguy - pothos toxin?

@Odd Duck @xXInkedPhoenixX @Colu

What else can I do to make this tank safe?!

My betta did exactly what @xXInkedPhoenixX and @Colu suggested insofar as flaring was concerned too. He was extremely active and tore fins all the time. The pothos toxin can't leach into the water unless the pH is below 4.5 so they're probably correct. Poison Pothos! - Plants, Algae, and Fertilizers - C.A.R.E.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by dasaltemelosguy

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I just did a water change and vacuumed stuff. Idk

added salt back, ial extract.

[nabokovfan87]

Try putting posterboard or cardstock on the sides of the tank.  You can easily remove it when you need to and that might be enough to remove the issue of reflections.  If you notice him upset with the snail, move the snail and maybe try otos or something for algae. 

Some bettas are just very, very feisty.   Geppetto often is making a nest and so maybe he's just hyper sensitive to everything around.  Heck, maybe the reflection is causing him to make more nests?  (I just don't know enough about bettas to say if it's healthy or not)

Some cases of fin rot are purely caused by stress and so fixing stress is a way to approach it.

If all else fails and you're really unsure what to do.  Remove the fish and snail, plants, turn it into saltwater.  RR the plants and then go and QT the livestock and monitor.  Let the salt run in the tank and use that as your antibacterial to remove any remaining gram negative stuff that's lingering.  You'd dose it to be saltwater at a high enough dose and just run it like you would carbon or something for a few weeks.  Then reset the tank.

On 2/11/2023 at 9:38 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

added salt back, ial extract.

You might be able to go a bit heavier on the botanicals, keep the water a bit darker and that might help with stress (lower the reflections, lower the light intensity, etc.

[Odd Duck]

I would work on reducing reflections.  He may not need that forever, just until the fins are healed for a full 3 months or so and damaged tissue has had time to toughen up more.  If tears recur after that, and he didn’t have tears in between, then he may need reflection abatement forever.  If he keeps getting tears despite reflection abatement, he might be a fin nipper even though he doesn’t have such heavy fins as most fin nippers.  I think he’s more likely to be scarred and the webbing between the fin rays isn’t tough enough.  See what happens with reduced reflection.  You may also have to remove the nerite, but try reducing reflection first unless you think that he’s flaring more at the nerite than his reflection?

Keep up salt and tannins, maybe only do IAL tea instead of leaves in the tank?  You can also add some rooibos tea - I steep it very concentrated (2 teabags per cup of hot water), let cool, squeeze out tea bags and I add the whole cup per 10 gallons to get good color.

Maybe try some floaters to reduce stress more.  Going darker with tannins and floaters should reduce his stress.  Red root floaters don’t get such long roots that he would risk entanglement.  They also have rather fragile roots compared to other floaters, so very minimal risk.  If you have duckweed, here would be a good use for it.  They have very short little roots.  😝   Don’t buy some just for this, just try the red root floaters.

You’ve run your finger over everything, right, checking for an edge?  Check the tube on your sponge filter, especially inside his tunnels, make sure if you keep using an IAL leaf that you’ve softened it up by boiling/blanching it.  They are very crisp when dry.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/12/2023 at 7:04 PM, Odd Duck said:

You’ve run your finger over everything, right, checking for an edge?  Check the tube on your sponge filter, especially inside his tunnels, make sure if you keep using an IAL leaf that you’ve softened it up by boiling/blanching it.  They are very crisp when dry.

Absolutely. I’ve gone over everything in the tank. I’m leaning away from fin nipping. The problem usually begins on his dorsal fin which he wouldn’t be able to bite. Also there was a hole in his tail at one point, in November. I will cover the sides with these. They are stick-on tiles from dollar tree. But I will tape them on so the rocks face the tank. And when I get more time I will apply the black vinyl.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Since I created this post there has been improvement as well. Sorry first photo is dark. When he’s in the front you can’t see his color very well but you should be able to see the tail regrowth here.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Odd Duck]

He really is very handsome and I certainly can’t see anything he might have caught his fins on.  It is weird that he damaged his dorsal.  I don’t see that in fin nippers, but at this point it’s frankly grasping for anything that could be causing this.  You’re doing everything right, for sure.  🤗 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/13/2023 at 12:13 PM, Odd Duck said:

He really is very handsome and I certainly can’t see anything he might have caught his fins on.  It is weird that he damaged his dorsal.  I don’t see that in fin nippers, but at this point it’s frankly grasping for anything that could be causing this.  You’re doing everything right, for sure.  🤗 

Each day I get lost in watching him. Usually a half hour goes by while I’m gazing. He always greets me at the front with excited side fin fanning. (I’m sure there’s NERMier terms for those fins, LOL). I did notice a NERM on the other thread referring to them as “jazz hands” 🤣

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/13/2023 at 12:13 PM, Odd Duck said:

He really is very handsome and I certainly can’t see anything he might have caught his fins on.  It is weird that he damaged his dorsal.  I don’t see that in fin nippers, but at this point it’s frankly grasping for anything that could be causing this.  You’re doing everything right, for sure.  🤗 

I put the rock walls up the morning. Was gone about 12 hr. I come home and this is what he looks like! OMG! 
 

Compare to the beautiful tail he had this morning! Now what? Should I take the rock walls down?

Also do you think this plant has a bacteria or something? 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Here’s a photo from Nov. see the holes? It’s subtle but they are there. So that can’t be fin biting right?

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I pulled this rock. I noticed towards the bottom, which would have been near the sand, it is damaged. I run my finger across it- I would not say it’s “sharp” but maybe “scratchy” like a fine sandpaper kinda. So maybe this? Could it have done that much damage to him while I was at work? If he was wiggling in and around it? 😔 idk- I’m going crazy feeling all guilty but I’m not sure even about what.

Also the lights were out, and I flipped on the room lights to take out the rock, and this dude totally tried to bite Kratos!  Caught in the act! First time I noticed him do that, besides once when I first added Kratos to the tank. Might be doing it after dark?! So Kratos is being acclimated to the 29g for his safety. 
 

Now there is no hardscape. Only 2 swim throughs and live plants.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Goldie Blue]

On 2/11/2023 at 7:14 AM, Colu said:

Possibility he could have  been flaring at his reflection that would cause already injured fins to split

My one betta, who actually looks almost identical to yours, absolutely HATES the light, so I can't have it on at all. He will flare all day the minute the light comes on, even though I blacked out 3 sides of the glass. Once I started leaving the light off 24/7, he calmed down and his fins grew back in nicely.

I'd definitely keep the rocks out. The only other spot I can see that could maybe cause a problem might be that suction cup on the right side? Does he wedge in there at all, and possibly rubs his fins on those roots above it? I was blown away at how little it takes to rip their fins. But my guess is he is stressed from the light/reflection, because your tank is really great as far as tons of plants and places to rest and sleep on. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/13/2023 at 6:03 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I pulled this rock. I noticed towards the bottom, which would have been near the sand, it is damaged. I run my finger across it- I would not say it’s “sharp” but maybe “scratchy” like a fine sandpaper kinda. So maybe this? Could it have done that much damage to him while I was at work? If he was wiggling in and around it? 😔 idk- I’m going crazy feeling all guilty but I’m not sure even about what.

So in terms of sharpness, that rock has rounded edges.  I'd say you're fine with that rock.  You can tuck the "rough side" to the corner of the tank or use sandpaper to make it butter smooth if you prefer.

Some of the photos you posted show curling on the edge of the fin.  IDK if you see that now, but early on maybe it was a sign of something?  This photo.
 

On 2/13/2023 at 5:45 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

In terms of treatment, you've done salt a few times. You've done one round of kanaplex.  Anything else I'm missing?

Trying to suggest a path forward, but also trying to understand what has been done in detail a bit.
 

On 2/13/2023 at 6:52 PM, Goldie Blue said:

My one betta, who actually looks almost identical to yours, absolutely HATES the light, so I can't have it on at all. He will flare all day the minute the light comes on, even though I blacked out 3 sides of the glass. Once I started leaving the light off 24/7, he calmed down and his fins grew back in nicely.

Interesting.  For reference, which light? How far was it from the surface (lid or water)?

On 2/13/2023 at 6:03 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Also the lights were out, and I flipped on the room lights to take out the rock, and this dude totally tried to bite Kratos!  Caught in the act! First time I noticed him do that, besides once when I first added Kratos to the tank. Might be doing it after dark?! So Kratos is being acclimated to the 29g for his safety. 

Awesome to hear.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/13/2023 at 9:52 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Does he wedge in there at all, and possibly rubs his fins on those roots above it?

Possibly, and there was a little plant weight around the roots also. It was a live DIY leaf hammock.  I have now removed that plant and suction cup. 

On 2/13/2023 at 10:09 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Some of the photos you posted show curling on the edge of the fin

Yeah. Is that bad?

On 2/13/2023 at 10:09 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

you've done salt a few times. You've done one round of kanaplex.  Anything else I'm missing?

Nope! You’re all caught up 🙂  There is mild salt in the tank right now. 1T/5g which is ok for the plants.

My guy doesn’t flare due to light.

Kratos has a spikey shell. If Geppetto was bothering him while I’m at work or during the night, totally possible the spikes could have ripped his fins. 

Prior to qt, I had sucked up (off the sand) some little blobs of what I thought was the slime that usually forms on lids. But my lid has had zero slime thus far because I maintain it during weekly maintenance, and I’ve been in and out of the tank quite a bit to “child proof” it for him, to move him to qt, etc.. I don’t know where that stuff on the sand came from but I wonder if that was pieces of his fins. I did feel it in my fingers. Felt like, I don’t know what to compare it to. Maybe if you get raw egg on your fingers when cracking an egg for breakfast. Well, more like the membrane inside an eggshell. That’s what it felt like. Kind of slimy. (?)

Here’s Kratos last week

Edited February 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Also I ordered some red root floaters @Odd Duck. Should arrive in a few days.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/13/2023 at 7:28 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Prior to qt, I had sucked up (off the sand) some little blobs of what I thought was the slime that usually forms on lids. But my lid has had zero slime thus far because I maintain it during weekly maintenance, and I’ve been in and out of the tank quite a bit to “child proof” it for him, to move him to qt, etc.. I don’t know where that stuff on the sand came from but I wonder if that was pieces of his fins. I did feel it in my fingers. Felt like, I don’t know what to compare it to. Maybe if you get raw egg on your fingers when cracking an egg for breakfast. Kind of slimy. (?)

reminds me of this. But yours was on the lid, not on the sand.  Definitely weird.  I've had some white mold type stuff on the HoBs before and it wasn't slimy.  Hard water mixed with what looks like fungus / mold.  Just annoying more than anything, but wasn't slimy like that.

I would "treat the tank" so to speak with salt, ich-X and with kanaplex.  I know there are plants in there, but short term some plants can be fine with the salt. 

This photo....

On 2/13/2023 at 5:17 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

It looks like brown diatoms to me on the left / right leaf.  The middle leaf it looks like green dust algae. The coloration / opalescence might just be the LED shimmer off the leaf.  If it grows, it might be BGA.

[Odd Duck]

That tail sure is suspicious of fin nipping. How much current is in the tank?  I can’t remember - you only have a sponge filter in there, right?  That certainly shouldn’t be excess water flow.

I wouldn’t think that rock could cause it unless he was forcing himself around it for whatever crazy reason fish do that kind of thing.  The suction cup clip part or lead weight might cause it.  But that much damage in the middle of the tail is very suspicious for fin nipping. Along with what I’m sure appeared to him like a big change in the tank (the new walls), could have triggered some fin nipping.

I think you did the right thing with covering the sides but it doesn’t seem like he reacted well to it. Every fish is an individual.  This just makes that more apparent.  He might do better with just black sides and back?  Is the back of your “rock wall” pieces black?  Maybe try just one of them that way to see how he reacts.  Take the others down for now and try only one turned to the dark/black side?

Until we can figure out what’s causing this, keep up with the salt (same dose) and go ahead and do the Kanaplex to be on the safe side his fins are so torn now. 

And I agree, the brown looks like diatoms and should brush off. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:42 PM, Odd Duck said:

That tail sure is suspicious of fin nipping. How much current is in the tank?  I can’t remember - you only have a sponge filter in there, right?  That certainly shouldn’t be excess water flow.

I wouldn’t think that rock could cause it unless he was forcing himself around it for whatever crazy reason fish do that kind of thing.  The suction cup clip part or lead weight might cause it.  But that much damage in the middle of the tail is very suspicious for fin nipping. Along with what I’m sure appeared to him like a big change in the tank (the new walls), could have triggered some fin nipping.

I think you did the right thing with covering the sides but it doesn’t seem like he reacted well to it. Every fish is an individual.  This just makes that more apparent.  He might do better with just black sides and back?  Is the back of your “rock wall” pieces black?  Maybe try just one of them that way to see how he reacts.  Take the others down for now and try only one turned to the dark/black side?

Until we can figure out what’s causing this, keep up with the salt (same dose) and go ahead and do the Kanaplex to be on the safe side his fins are so torn now. 

And I agree, the brown looks like diatoms and should brush off. 

Sponge filter only. I think it’s possible he could have forced/wiggles through those roots. I will take one rock wall down. The backs of these are white but I do have the black vinyl as well.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:42 PM, Odd Duck said:

the Kanaplex

Safe for plants or need to move to qt again?

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:56 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Safe for plants or need to move to qt again?

Perfectly safe with plants. Just like maracyn in terms of "beware of".

It's just for gram negative as opposed to gram positive bacteria.