Apistopolooza (Hongsloi and Abacaxis)

[jwcarlson]

I have, as of... Basically right now... Nearly convinced myself that the female from this pair is a sleeper male. 

Bottom one in the pic.  I think that would explain a lot. 

On the right here.  Of particular note are the flushing red scales near the back of "her" belly.  I haven't noticed those displayed yet.  Seems a little weird that the male still... Dances and displays for "her", but I don't have a frame of reference to know if that's what dominant males do...

That said, I think I remember the dark cheek slash being a female characteristic. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Lennie]

Nonetheless they are very cute!! 🥰

[jwcarlson]

I was lucky enough to win @tolstoy21's RAOK giveway for a pair of Apistogramma Abacaxis and received them a few days ago (March 31).  Set them up a 20L... which has since cleared up pretty nicely.  I will say that they are hide-and-seek champions!  Though they are getting a bit more outgoing.  They're getting baby brine shrimp twice a day.  Tough to know how much they're eating.  But even the Hongsloi that are out all the time don't seem to eat much BBS.  I think they actually prefer to eat it once it settles down more onto the sand where they tend to collect up in little depressions and can be eaten in bigger bites.  So maybe these little things are doing the same.  In any event, it seems like they successfully acclimated and are settling it.  

 

Tolstoy's thread here for a picture of an adult male:

 

I don't know why it quit letting me type.  But there's really no update on the Hongsloi, they are... keeping on keeping on... no more near spawning activity right now, which is a little strange.  Not sure what to make of that.  The pairs are all kind of in a holding pattern.  The pair that has spawned multiple times, the female spends a lot of time hiding from the male.  The pair I thought was close to spawning just seems to be friendly and no closer to spawning.  And then the last pair I still continue to believe the female might very well be a sleeper male.  I've been considering moving one of them to a community tank and seeing if "she" starts coloring up without a male harassing.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:46 AM, jwcarlson said:

I think they actually prefer to eat it once it settles down

Yeah, in my experience, a lot of apistos, especially shy ones, like to forage for food on the bottom.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2023 at 7:50 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Yeah, in my experience, a lot of apistos, especially shy ones, like to forage for food on the bottom.

A couple of my Hongsloi females will come up to the brine shrimp syringe thing and bite the soft, orange tip of it, which I find hilarious.  They even eat from the surface if the vibrabites or bug bites haven't sunk yet.  At some point I'll get a video or picture of one of them doing it.  It's just hard to attempt... need another hand. 😄

They certainly eat some BBS out of the water column, but I think they eat the vast majority of it off the bottom like you say.  They've got sand in their mouths a lot if nothing else.  So I do try to inject it a little farther down and this comically long coral feeding dodad helps with that.

Edited April 4, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

Rocking some tannins now. 

This little one is out of hiding, sitting through tail whips, and even returning them.  In between showing off her belly from across the tank.  Maybe another go for them here soon. 

[jwcarlson]

Happens so quick... Though I don't think she is laying yet, maybe just cleaning. He is putting his nose through the hole like my dogs do through the basement cat door. Haha

I'm not sure he can even fit his big head through the hole anymore.  I need to get some larger caves. 

 

[jwcarlson]

This morning she was hanging out in the cave a lot and Captain Dopey was more-or-less ignoring her affections.  She's trying to herd him over to the cave and he just keeps milling around with mouthfuls of sand.  She was getting pretty frantic with him, but I had to get to work so I couldn't enjoy all the festivities.  They were exchanging tail whips in the middle of the tank then she would circle around trying to point him in the direction of the cave and he would just swim off in the other direction.  

I don't know if these two will ever get it together.  I've read/watched a lot about apisto courting and observed a lot of it.  It's just remarkable how uninterested she seems until seemingly like the moment she's going to start dropping eggs and then it's like she panics, she seemed almost distressed this AM that she couldn't get him back to the hut.  Breathing heavy and everything. 😄 Hopefully it's all just a warm-up to her actually laying.  

Edited April 5, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

I have no idea what's going on.  I thought they spawned, but maybe they did not.  She was out and about and flirting a bit last night and this AM.  But maybe she's just not chasing him as much?  She's still hanging around the cave, but not... in it... much?  She makes me want to pull the cave every 12 hours to see what's actually going on.  I might try a half-pot with the back snuggled up to the glass so that I can at least see in there (if she would actually spawn in it).  I haven't seen any eggs at the footstep of the cave, but that really doesn't mean anything.

 

I'm not mad, I'm just confused, Tiny Female Apisto. 🤣

Edited April 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

First day with the male from this "pair" separated.... thinking this isn't a she after all.  Normally quite dark, but this morning even displaying a little bit for the female on the other side of the divider. haha

Yesterday I noticed what looked like some minor damage to the forehead area on this fish.  So I dropped the male down into a community tank to see what happens.  So now what to do with two extra hongsloi males? 😄

Edited April 10, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

So about a week ago I moved a male to a community tank.  He's doing fine in there, nothing to compete with.  He seems to like hanging out with the corys and is eating a perhaps alarming number of red cherry shrimp.  😄

The coloring of the "female" of that pair looked more male like immediately.  I slipped through the divider right away and I netted it back to it's side.  Minutes later it was back there so I netted and killed the lights, adjusted the divider.  The next morning back there again... I have no clue how it could get through.  

Anyway, I removed the divider so they would have the whole 55.  There was one instance of lip locking between this new fish and the female from the other pair.  Otherwise they seem relatively chill with each other, but the way they behave makes me think they are both, in fact, females.  All three of them pal around together, but the two females do flare and circle each other occasionally and then go back to picking through the sand.  Do one is being driven up to the surface or anything (yet).  The male displays for both, but seems to be almost waiting for one of them to want to mate.  He mostly does his own thing and sometimes butts into their flaring sessions to whap them with his tail. 😄

 

Nothing much else to report here.  I'm not sure on my strategy at this point.  I have a 29 I could set up and move one of the females into and then add a male.  But I'm not really desiring another tank at this point.  Will see if this trio does anything over the next few weeks.  I feel bad moving the male like I did, but he seems to be OK in the community tank.

Here's the male with the new-comer female.  He's got quite the forehead on him.  Almost the start of a nuchal hump, perhaps that's normal.

Oh, the other update is that I fairly frequently see the abacaxis.  They are much more tolerant of my movement as well.  They were both out snuggled up under driftwood while I was sitting on front of the tank pulling plants out for RR from a neighboring tank.  

Edited April 16, 2023 by jwcarlson

[nabokovfan87]

Identifying cichlids, well fish really, can be difficult. Is there anything on the finnage or other features that would help with the puzzle?

[jwcarlson]

I am pretty confident it's a female now having seen them lock mouths.  And the male seems to have no issue with those two being around each other. 

I guess what's weird to me is how male-like the female's coloring gets.  Mood depending. 

But I think mostly Iam just inexperienced! 

Edited April 16, 2023 by jwcarlson

[anewbie]

Locking lips between m/f is usually a test of male suitability as a partner. You know females don't want some weakly to breed with...

 

some species of apistogramma are very easy to sex but hongsloi are particularly difficult. I had a mature female that nearly everyone thought was  a male until she got around to laying eggs and then we knew she was a female.

Edited April 16, 2023 by anewbie

[jwcarlson]

I haven't seen a single lip locking between M/F yet.  Or at least confirmed M/F.  Perhaps once she has selected him she's easier on him? 

Either way, I agree that it can be pretty confusing in my very limited experience.  The females sometimes look like near copies of the males.  But I will say that bright yellow females are pretty obvious.  But that isn't an all the time thing. 

I'm just letting things play out and will see what happens.  I haven't had a spawn in a long time now, starting to wonder what I am doing wrong. 

[anewbie]

On 4/16/2023 at 8:15 PM, jwcarlson said:

I haven't seen a single lip locking between M/F yet.  Or at least confirmed M/F.  Perhaps once she has selected him she's easier on him? 

Either way, I agree that it can be pretty confusing in my very limited experience.  The females sometimes look like near copies of the males.  But I will say that bright yellow females are pretty obvious.  But that isn't an all the time thing. 

I'm just letting things play out and will see what happens.  I haven't had a spawn in a long time now, starting to wonder what I am doing wrong. 

I almost never see dwarf cichild lock lip; i see it more frequent with angelfishes and similar. I never seen m/m lock lip but a google search suggest they can to establish territory - more common with africans. One person claims m/m rams will lock lips to establish territories (mine never did; but i only had them a couple of years). With angelfishes that i've kept a number of years the males never really establish territory and it is the female that runs around locking lip with males to (i presume) 'test' them. When she rejects a fish she doesn't lock lip she drives them away or kills them if they insist on staying near.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:09 AM, anewbie said:

One person claims m/m rams will lock lips to establish territories

I can confirm this. My GBR did. I watch as it happened and one received a rather serious lip injury from the confrontation. 

[jwcarlson]

Still awaiting another spawn.  It's been weeks.  The pair that has spawned several times is extremely lovey.  The female has been in bright breeding colors for at least two weeks.  A couple cool water changes haven't seemed to help.  Though the last one was just yesterday, so not necessarily been that long. 

The abacaxis continue to be a bit more visible.  The female was cooperative today.  The male hangs out under the driftwood and will sneak out a bit if I sit there long enough.  But he darts quickly if I try to take a picture. 

 

You can see the male here (under wood).  He is a sneaky fella. 

[jwcarlson]

Best views I have had of them so far!  Some courtship activities and they're displaying for each other.  Male's colors heaps different since I got them.  Getting that deep red/purple mouth. 🙂

[jwcarlson]

I'm starting to get a sneaking suspicion that I've got five male Hongsloi and one female.  At this point every fish is twice (or more) bigger than the known female.  😕  Since I removed the divider and let the three fish mingle in the 55, the female coloring has been entirely absent from either of the smaller fish.  Additionally, the obvious male more-or-less ignores both of the other fish.  Something I do not think he would do if the other two were one male and one female.  After some initial tussling, they have basically left each other alone.  Sometimes they kind of pal around together, but there's been basically zero courtship behavior.  Kind of disappointing.  And the one known female seems like an absolute basket case.  😄  It's been about seven weeks since they last spawned.  But perhaps they are easing into it this time instead of going from zero to laying eggs without any flirting.  The female is pretty frequently wafting air at him and he's been doing some seizure-type moves back at her.  Going with a big, cool water change again tomorrow to see what happens.

Anyone want some male Hongsloi? 😄

[anewbie]

Not helpful but i had one confirmed female hongsloi the same size as a male. The others were significantly smaller. Having said that it is not too difficult to find female hongsloi if you want to buy a few (of course if they aren't local shipping $$$ is a kicker).

[jwcarlson]

She's a cute little thing!  I wouldn't say that she's excited to see me, but she doesn't head for the hills.  Good to see her out eating BBS.  

I didn't notice it when I was looking at her, but sure looks like a ton of hydra in the picture.  I don't think I've ever had it before.  I suppose I should do some reading about it.  I don't even know if it's bad. 

 

Here's a video of them.  They're not lovey-dovey yet, but they're interacting more and more it seems like.  She sees him at a distance and kind of reorients and flares a bit when he's still way off.  Doesn't seem very receptive yet, but she's making placating gestures that may or may not show up on the video.  Slight roll to show the belly.

Guess I should have scraped the glass when I did a water change a couple days ago.  I didn't know they were going to start putting on shows! *shrug*  Also... some plants pearling even covered in algae.  Or is the algae pearling? 😄

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Guppysnail]

She is magnificent!  There’s mixed thoughts on hydra. I have several types and find them fascinating. If you look at the Apisto baby pics close in my thread momma escorts babies it seems to where the hydra are most active that day. I guess it’s because the microfauna are most plentiful. That tank has the white ones.

I usually always have the smaller green ones in my CPD hatch tanks. Again I never had an issue. 
 

I have some Spixii snail babies now so I threw a few in with the Apisto babies. They eat hydra. 
 

This video sums up my approach to hydra…do nothing. It’s found everywhere in nature. 

 

[jwcarlson]

In the video Cory says "we get an outbreak when we feed a lot of baby brine".  I think that very much fits the bill for me.  😄  I'll have to look in my other apisto tanks, they're way overfed with BBS.  

[jwcarlson]

I can't get over how much more 'social' these two have gotten in the last week.  Perhaps because there's more pairing/mating behavior going on which draws the male out more.  But today he was in the open, let me walk over, open the lid, squirt some BBS in, he came over and started eating, and let me pull my phone out and take pictures.  Wild.

Oh nice, he put more food in.

Gulp

Oh man, she was RIGHT there... embarrassing.  Get it together.

Alright... give her your good side.