Apistopolooza (Hongsloi and Abacaxis)

[jwcarlson]

The little egg layer is now still in the nest for a new record by at least 12 hours.  Still keeping male away a bit, but he is just voluntarily staying to one side from what I can tell. 

Male #2 is looking quite nice after sixish weeks with me. 

And male #3 has bulked up a bit and colored up nicely.  Lots of red on his face, but doesn't show great in pictures. 

Can see the red a bit more here. 

We'll see what tomorrow brings.  Have had progress with each spawn, so I think that's a good sign.  I cannot see the nest at all, but I don't see any pink eggs on the sand below it. 

I am out of town tomorrow evening, but off Friday.  

My phone keeps saying clean your lense when I try to take pictures through the 1/8" of algae. 🤣

[jwcarlson]

Well dang, she was rubbing all over the male this morning and he was dancing for her again.  

She went further time this time.  But no idea if she even has eggs or if it just takes her that long to realize she's eaten them all.  

[jwcarlson]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:42 AM, Plantdude said:

im sure you'll get it soon, youve had these for what 6weeks, fish take time to learn things.

Yes, I am not too torn up about it.  I just wish I could see a wiggler once to know they're both at least fertile.  Or one of the other pairs would spawn and give me another data point. 🙂

If they never successfully raise fry it won't be the end of the world! 

[jwcarlson]

 

 

These two are getting closer to spawning finally... I think. 

She was rolling over showing her belly several times, but I missed it with the camera.  She was also standing fast for his tail whaps and returned them a few times.  She seems cozy under the sponge filter so I moved it a bit and put a cave there after the videos.  He was trying to corralle her in immediately. 

Will see how they are in the morning. 

[jwcarlson]

I caught them spawning this afternoon!  Watched them for about 20 minutes, she was taking multiple passes... watched him cram into the thumbsized hole in the wood.  I cleaned out some of the extra plants last night to RR the algae (new tank).  Replanted them a few hours ago during their light siesta during the middle of the day.  As part of that I cleared out the hornwort that was covering this cave.  I didn't know it was a tiny hole.  You can see him enter the little hole with her.  I watched him do it at least three times.  I think this answers my question about if he was "doing the deed".

The other pair (mentioned above) is still lovey-dovey, but has not spawned.  This is the forth spawn from this pair since I got them.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

This female is driving me nuts.  She is now in a different cave, male has been in there with her a bit upside down, he came blasting out.  She's in there making upsidedown passes too then asking him to come in with her. 

Hahaha

Well... If nothing else, she is entertaining!  He seems significantly less interested.  Can't blame him, honestly. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Theplatymaster]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:11 PM, jwcarlson said:

Well... If nothing else, she is entertaining!

its always fun when fish do funny things.(perfectly healthy fish doing ha ha things, not sick fish doing odd things).

Edited March 6, 2023 by Theplatymaster

[jwcarlson]

She's already hauling eggs out... About 24 hours earlier than normal. 

 

I don't know if me watching caused her to abandon the cave she was in partway through and relocating?  So as to only have a few eggs in the cave?  

This one is really disappointing because they had been better each spawn up until this one.  Which probably means that I'll see fry in a week now. 😂🤣

[jwcarlson]

No surprise here, but the wild one's bifurcated spawn did not take.  If the trend continues she should spawn here in 5-7 days.  

I don't know if I made her flip out or what.  What's odd is that she didn't seem to care at all while I was watching, but then after they seemed to be done she... panicked?  

In any event, no real change there.  The other two pairs are near polar opposites.  One of the pairs is pretty lovey, female showing her belly a lot.  Has felt like a spawn is eminent from them for like two weeks.  But... still nothing.  The other pair, I am starting to think might not ever pair.  I don't think I've witnessed a single positive interaction between the two of them.  He pushes her towards the top, I put a floating betta log in and she hangs out in there sometimes.  He's not physically tough on her at all, she doesn't have any damage or anything so far as I can tell.  She comes out when I feed, she'll actually eat right out of the tip of the brine shrimp syringe thing that I use to shoot the BBS into their tank.  If I submerge it she'll almost nurse on it.  It's pretty funny, actually. 

They've been with me for 60 days, seems like they've almost got to be approaching a 'failed' pairing...?  I might have to do some reading as I don't know what to try.  Maybe pull the male for a week and let her better establish her domain and then add him back in?  Or might that end in disaster...?  At this point, I'll just keep on keeping on and see how it turns out.

[anewbie]

A bit depends if they were fully mature when you got them or if they were still maturing. You could try swapping the two females of the two failed pairs but i'd give it a bit more time. 

[jwcarlson]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:11 AM, anewbie said:

A bit depends if they were fully mature when you got them or if they were still maturing. You could try swapping the two females of the two failed pairs but i'd give it a bit more time. 

The two that haven't spawned yet... one pair seems pretty lovey.  She's pretty consistently lighter colored, especially in the mornings.  I have a pretty good feeling that they'll eventually spawn.  The other one though... I don't think he's going to kill her and if anything his persuit has waned a bit.  She just seems totally uninterested.  Pretty dark color most of the time.  Hides out in the betta log I put in "just in case" though he doesn't usually come above the bottom half of the tank to sniff around her much.  She's the most interactive of all of them, she'll come eat out of the brine shrimp syringe if I put it into the water.  Like clamp onto it like a bottle.  😄

And the pair that spawned is acting strange as well... since their last little... episode.  It could be that she's just hanging out in the filter as her next cave though.  I can't see in behind it (it's one of those suction to the wall with two "can" style filters.  I'm thinking maybe she spawned in there this weekend.  She just kind of disappeared.  Male is just cruising around and totally ignoring her.  So... who knows.  Feels like she broke after that last spawn in two caves event. 😄

Glad I got three pairs because if I'd have received just one of any of these three I could be even more confused. haha 

Edited March 20, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Theplatymaster]

@jwcarlson

how's the project going?

any success?

[jwcarlson]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:51 PM, Theplatymaster said:

@jwcarlson

how's the project going?

any success?

Nothing since the 6th, but it's possible she's 'nested' in the filter because I just catch a glimpse of her occasionally.  By in the filter, I mean behind the left side of this one between the foam and the uplift tube.  Unless she's just trying to hide out in there, but that would be very abnormal behavior.  No clue if the male could do his job near a filter that like... add that to the list of perplexing things going on with this pair.  If she does have eggs back there that would make a 5th spawn in a total of 5 different locations... or maybe it's 6 spawns in 6 locations... I can't remember.  She did use the same cave twice and in the 4th spawn used two locations, so bonus location on that one. 😄

Not sure I want to select for this type of decision making.  haha

I'm guessing I'll get fry when I quit looking and I'm super busy at work for a week or something.  That would make the most sense.

Edited March 20, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Theplatymaster]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:03 PM, jwcarlson said:

Nothing since the 6th, but it's possible she's 'nested' in the filter because I just catch a glimpse of her occasionally.  By in the filter, I mean behind the left side of this one between the foam and the uplift tube.  Unless she's just trying to hide out in there, but that would be very abnormal behavior.  No clue if the male could do his job near a filter that like... add that to the list of perplexing things going on with this pair.  If she does have eggs back there that would make a 5th spawn in a total of 5 different locations... or maybe it's 6 spawns in 6 locations... I can't remember.  She did use the same cave twice and in the 4th spawn used two locations, so bonus location on that one. 😄

Not sure I want to select for this type of decision making.  haha

I'm guessing I'll get fry when I quit looking and I'm super busy at work for a week or something.  That would make the most sense.

have you tried feeding BBS?

[jwcarlson]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:13 PM, Theplatymaster said:

have you tried feeding BBS?

They get it (BBS) twice a day, plus occasional frozen blood worms, freeze-dried tubifex worms, Fluval Bug Bites, Hikari Vibra Bites, and some smaller pellets made by an individual named Paul.  The name of his company is escaping me at the moment.  Fish Guy Paul or Paul the Fish Guy... something like that.  BBS is, by far, the majority of their diet.

 

Edit: here it is, he's got lots of cultures and stuff too.

https://fishguysplace.com/index.html

Edited March 29, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Theplatymaster]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:16 PM, jwcarlson said:

They get it (BBS) twice a day, plus occasional frozen blood worms, freeze-dried tubifex worms, Fluval Bug Bites, Hikari Vibra Bites, and some smaller pellets made buy an individual named Paul.  The name of his company is escaping me at the moment.  Fish Guy Paul or Paul the Fish Guy... something like that.  BBS is, by far, the majority of their diet.

ok,

just wondering as BBS can really help fish spawn.

Maybe add some dithers to the tank, something like endlers, that will add some hormones and pheromones to the water to help them breed.

but thats just a thought.

 

[jwcarlson]

The dithers has been a thought for awhile.  I might end up there.  Which I struggle with.  I don't care to require more maintenance, which is my main hesitation.  Been thinking about some pencil fish if I go that route.  Don't want something that's going to surprise breed for me and then I have an endler tank with two apistogrammas at the bottom. 😄

[Theplatymaster]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:33 PM, jwcarlson said:

I have an endler tank with two apistogrammas at the bottom. 😄

i assume apistos are rather predatory...

but that makes sense.

[anewbie]

Are you sure both the male and female are sexually mature ?

[jwcarlson]

On 3/20/2023 at 4:33 PM, anewbie said:

Are you sure both the male and female are sexually mature ?

I have no idea.  How could one tell? 

[anewbie]

age - fully developing; still growing. Has the female turned yellow? Btw the female picks the male so you could try putting two males in there and see who she picks; of course the risk is one of the males kills the others...

[jwcarlson]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:32 PM, anewbie said:

age - fully developing; still growing. Has the female turned yellow? Btw the female picks the male so you could try putting two males in there and see who she picks; of course the risk is one of the males kills the others...

So I've got three pairs.  One pair has spawned about five times.  One other pair the female is starting to get more yellow and they seem like they're going to spawn at some point.  Third pair the female is occasionally yellower colored/lighter, but is not very yellow that I have ever seen.  She remains mostly dark.  

To be clear, I'm not... "worried" about any of this, it's not like I have a homework assignment to bring in an apistogramma fry by the end of the month or something.  They've all been with me for about 2.5 months.  I'd say that they've grown a little bit, but I don't think they've grown much.  The female that's been spawning is significantly smaller than the other two females.

Short of just getting rid of them, I have no plans to do anything other than keep feeding them and taking care of them.  And seeing how it pans out.  I could see going to a trio (1M, 2F) at some point.  I can always move a male in to some other aquarium to see what is going on.  

 

In any event, I think you're probably right and they're just not completely mature enough.  When the one pair spawned basically immediately I think it set my expectations and the other two should follow relatively soon.  But there's no telling how old the fish were and what-not.  Waiting doesn't hurt anything.

My only moderate concern is the pair that has spawned.  They've now not spawned for the longest time (a bit over 2 weeks) since I've had them and she is hanging out in the filter quite adamantly, which worries me.  He doesn't seem to be interacting with her much at all.  She comes out and eats a bit, so that's good, I think.  But I have no clue if she's hurt or has eggs (though she hasn't gotten bright yellow again) or what.  I'm going to have to flush her out and will do a water change as well just because something seems off.  In the little glimpses I've had of her, she seems to look healthy, but she doesn't stay out long at all.  Previously she's always kind of out and about.  Certainly a mark-ed change in behavior.  But she was never one to spend much time at all in a cave before spawning... so I don't know if she's kind of making a nest in this location and she has just matured enough now to start exhibiting that behavior?  

[anewbie]

I have had pairs take a break up to 8 weeks though usually 4ish week break. Mine seem to go in spurt. If she has frys after two weeks i think she should bring them out - but certainly the first 10 days or so she could stay in there - first there is the eggs hatching; then you have wrigglers where they eat the egg sack but can't really swim - then they become free swimming and then she would bring them out. As to duration of each period temp plays a role but 3 to 6 days for eggs to hatch (usually closer to 4ish); 2ish days as pure wrigglers and another 3 or 4 days till they can swim - so she could in fact have something in the cave with her for 8 to 12 days before she starts bringing them out. Then again she could just be avoiding the male 😉

 

 

She might have frys in the cave; or she might be avoiding the male. 

[jwcarlson]

This one in question peaked out a bit last night and again this AM when I fed them.  She doesn't appear to have anything, but must be tired of the male.  Though he hasn't done much to her when she does come out... but I'm not watching them 24 hours a day.

Edited March 22, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

The hiding female from pair #1 has been out and about much more recently.  I think she just had kind of had enough.  She was out looking nice and bright this AM.

I did cool water changes in the tanks last night.

Most of them were looking nice this morning. 🙂

Female from pair #2, this is the pair that seems like they will mate soon/eventually.  They're almost always near each other and never too much aggressive chasing.  You can see her mouth damage (at least I hope that's what it is and that it's not a genetic thing).  All three females seem to have some level of mouth damage (they had it when I received them).  

She "walked" him all over the tank while I was watching.  She tilts up at a 45 degree angle and very slowly wagged her tail back and forth and lead him around.  I've seen a bit of this before, but never for as long as she did it this morning.

Another shot of them hanging out.

 

Male from pair #1

 

Male from pair #2 - not completely colored up, he has a lot more red when he's really looking good.  It's amazing how fast they can flush in and out of their coloring.  You can kind of see his bottom scales blushing.  I finally scraped the front glass yesterday... and you can see that I missed a spot near his tail.  😄

 

Nothing to report really, they were looking handsome this morning so I took some pictures.

Edited March 26, 2023 by jwcarlson