Apistopolooza (Hongsloi and Abacaxis)

[jwcarlson]

I purchased a bit of a glut of new-to-me tanks a couple of months ago without any plans for them and decided to wait until I felt strongly about something before even filling one up.  I'd thought about buying some more juvenile discus to grow out, but thinking harder about it kind of quashed that idea.  If I were to grow discus out again, I would probably get rid of the ones I have and get new ones.

I had heard of apistogrammas, but had never seen one in person.  The majority of my fish exposure is whatever could be bought at the local fish store 20-25 years ago, which was a grocery store aisle.  So I did some rudimentary research and arrived at giving A. hongsloi a shot.  Frankly, there was enough indication that they can breed in moderately hardish water so I thought I'd give them a shot.  I do not have soft water at all.  It's pH of 8.2-8.3, TDS out of the tap of 300 ppm, etc etc.

So I bought three hongsloi pairs and pitched them in a 55 gallon to quarantine them and worm them.  I use levamisole on day 1, 5, and 13 with lights off 24 hours and decent cleaning of substrate with a water change after.  My initial goal is to see how hard of water they can hatch eggs and so my thought was to start with straight tap and see what happens.  I've since kind of rethought that idea because water is a pretty big variable.  I've been sitting on an RO unit for a year, so I installed that this past weekend and I'm going to start cutting in RO soon.  

Anyway, here's the 55.  During QT and worming of course one of the pairs spawned.  

Here's the dominant male.  Sub dominant behind him, though similarly colored for the most part.

The female when she spawned.  She spit the eggs out in front of the hut after a couple of days (which wasn't surprising).

 

So after the last worming treatment, I pulled the spawning pair to their own 29.  Dirty glass and relatively freshly setup, it actually cleared up a lot.  

I'll be curious to see if she selects one of these natural caves in the driftwood or if she reuses her cave or selects the other.

And then I also tossed in a divider in the 55 with a pair on each side.  So the subdominant males have colored up a bit more.  Right now all three pairs don't seem particularly close to spawning (which is fine, I'm not really in a hurry).  I've been hatching brine shrimp and feeding them that often (on average daily), but they also very much like flake, pellets, and even freeze dried tubifex (though I need to make some sinking worm holders so it is down low for them to eat).  

 

Plants are doing pretty well, there's a small layer of Fluval Stratum, capped with inert gravel and then 1.5" or so of all purpose sand.  

Here's a video of the female the day she laid eggs:

 

The fish are an absolute blast to watch and I've seen them eat quite a few snail eggs, which is a plus.

That's all for now... thanks for looking! 🙂  If you happen to have bred these before, I'd be curious to know what parameters you had success at!

Edited April 4, 2023 by jwcarlson

[TheSwissAquarist]

Haven’t bred these before, but they’re a fish which is on my ‘one day’ list and I can’t wait to see how this turns out! 

[jwcarlson]

Better pics of pair #2, probably best pair overall. 

I think she is the best of the females for sure.  Hopefully it is a female and not a sleeper male. Which I have been concerned about.  Though they do act like a pair, "she" likes showing him her belly a lot. 

 

 

Pair #3, he is starting to color up a bit, not sure if he will much more though. Might just be younger. 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

We were gone late last night so I didn't get to observe the apistos before lights out.  This morning at brine shrimp time, couldn't find "Bee".  Noticed a figure in the cave and waited her out.  She's pushing the male away, darting back to the cave, and immediately turning her head up and looking "breathing" at the top.  

TDS is at 60ish.  I haven't done a KH check with API kit, but on the ACO test strips it shows very low.  If we have a successful hatch I will get a full set of parameters to log. 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Theplatymaster]

those are some very colorful fish! I wish you luck.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:57 PM, jwcarlson said:

We were gone late last night so I didn't get to observe the apistos before lights out.  This morning at brine shrimp time, couldn't find "Bee".  Noticed a figured in the cave and waited her out.  She's pushing the male away, darting back to the cave, and immediately turning her head up and looking "breathing" at the top.  

TDS is at 60ish.  I haven't done a KH check with API kit, but on the ACO test strips it shows very low.  If we have a successful hatch I will get a full set of parameters to log. 

 

Sounds a lot like spawning behavior; bravo! 

[jwcarlson]

Yep, it's the same pair that already spawned once in QT.  So hoping the less hard water makes them successful. 

[anewbie]

A few comments:

Don't try too hard to look into the cave to see the eggs/wrigglers; as you can scare the female into eating them. Hongsloi are excellent parents to leave the frys with the parents for 3 or 4 weeks. Plan on feeding some live food (I use bbs) around 2nd or 3rd day when you see the mother out with her fry. I use a piques (sp) to inject bbs. After twoish or three weeks they can start taking very small dry food but it doesn't hurt to keep feeding bbs. My annoyance with bbs is that it is only good for about 2 days unless you put it in the fridge to keep them from eating their egg sacks (the part that has most of the nutrition for the frys).

[jwcarlson]

I just noticed that she's missing an entire ventral fin, battle scars from the breeder perhaps?  Hmm... inbred?  Hopefully not a genetic thing.  Went back to pics from day one and she was missing it then too.  Guess I might find out from the offspring.

 

I will not spotlight the cave.  She's back too far from the glass to be able to get an angle at it anyway.  But I can see her flip over when she coasts in.  

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

It's kind of cruddy not being able to see what's going on in the cave.  I guess things are progressing.  Noticed one egg kicked out this AM, but looking back at pictures (like right above this post)... it's been there since the beginning (possibly one she missed from first spawn? though not sure it would still be pink after two weeks).  She continues to do her thing.  The male is certainly behaving differently, but he's just kind of clearing out when she comes towards him, submitting.  He is still eating BBS and moving about the tank.  Almost like she's bored and thinks she should have to be chasing something away so she just chases him instead.  

She'd already kicked out all of the eggs by this point for her last spawn, so I hope that's a good development.  Excited to see if any babies come out of the cave in a few days.

Edited February 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 2/7/2023 at 4:29 PM, jwcarlson said:

Excited to see if any babies come out of the cave in a few days.

Fingers crossed 🤞! 

[jwcarlson]

I'm wondering if she'll move wigglers around and maybe I'll get a glimpse.  I can see most of the floor of the cave, though it is dark.    

Wishful thinking probably.  I think it can take almost another week for them to go free swimming.  Her behavior changed a bit when she gave up on the last batch, though, so I can probably make a fair guess as to what's going on if no more eggs (or not many more) end up on the sand and she continues to keep the male at a distance.  Fun to learn, for sure.

Edited February 7, 2023 by jwcarlson

[anewbie]

On 2/7/2023 at 10:56 AM, jwcarlson said:

I'm wondering if she'll move wigglers around and maybe I'll get a glimpse.  I can see most of the floor of the cave, though it is dark.    

Wishful thinking probably.  I think it can take almost another week for them to go free swimming.  Her behavior changed a bit when she gave up on the last batch, though, so I can probably make a fair guess as to what's going on if no more eggs (or not many more) end up on the sand and she continues to keep the male at a distance.  Fun to learn, for sure.

There is a good chance she will move the wrigglers once they hatch.... at least mine did.

[jwcarlson]

There seems to have been a bit of a change in behavior.  Today during the day she'd pitched another 3-4 eggs and watched her eat one off the sand.  She seems to be staying closer to the cave when she makes her excursions.  I made a bit of an opps this AM and because I usually dump the brine shrimp in... dumped way too many.  There were a few "puddles" of them settled in divots in the sand.  I vac'd them out really quick.  She came out when I was doing it and just looked the male back to his side and didn't flip out.  She's also very clearly doing something different in the cave.  Still can't see what's going on, but she's almost vertical in there now and doing some pecking looking stuff.  Hopefully it's her moving some wigglers around and not devouring them.  😬

 

The suspense is driving me a bit mad.  It's probably a good thing I have a job otherwise I'd just be staring at her.

The other two pairs don't seem any closer to spawning, but obviously I don't have a lot of experience.  One of the females was at least in a cave today at one point.  And her male was in the other one at a different time.  So maybe they're scoping out.

[jwcarlson]

Came home to her rubbing up on the male and tail whapping him.  She didn't go back to cave for like 20 minutes so I pulled it out.  Empty. 

 

Maybe new momma learning?  I guess when I saw her going vertical she was chowing down on eggs or wigglers.  Going to do hardness check tonight just so I know exactly where I am at.  

Edited February 21, 2023 by jwcarlson

[TheSwissAquarist]

Drat. 😒

[anewbie]

On 2/8/2023 at 5:57 PM, jwcarlson said:

Came home to her rubbing up on the male and tail whapping him.  She didn't go back to cave for like 20 minutes so I pulled it out.  Empty. 

 

Maybe new momma learning?  I guess when I saw her gling vertical she was chowing down on eggs or wigglers.  Going to do hardness check tonight just so I know exactly where I am at.  

TDS is a useful number...

[jwcarlson]

On 2/9/2023 at 1:55 PM, anewbie said:

TDS is a useful number...

TDS is 60.

I didn't get a hardness test last night.  I'm curious how much GH vs KH is in that TDS, I guess.  But that said... is 60 TDS a number you can convert to degrees somehow?  Meaning... what's the maximum dKH that could be inside 60 TDS?  Seems like a foolish question because I can just get the answer about my hardness without too much fanfare.  😄

When eggs are in hard water do they change in appearance somehow?  The ones she was kicking out where nice and pink, liquidy... I popped two of them when I cleaned out the extra baby brine.  Won't be feeding quite so heavy for the next spawn so I don't have to worry about it.  Maybe that irked her and she ate everything.

[anewbie]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:00 PM, jwcarlson said:

TDS is 60.

I didn't get a hardness test last night.  I'm curious how much GH vs KH is in that TDS, I guess.  But that said... is 60 TDS a number you can convert to degrees somehow?  Meaning... what's the maximum dKH that could be inside 60 TDS?  Seems like a foolish question because I can just get the answer about my hardness without too much fanfare.  😄

When eggs are in hard water do they change in appearance somehow?  The ones she was kicking out where nice and pink, liquidy... I popped two of them when I cleaned out the extra baby brine.  Won't be feeding quite so heavy for the next spawn so I don't have to worry about it.  Maybe that irked her and she ate everything.

I wouldn't feed bbs until the frys are free swimming. I don' tthink you can convert tds back into gh - if you ph is low your kh will be low. I think tds 60 is fine - but new parents take a few trys to get it right.

[jwcarlson]

I'm feeding the parents the BBS, I guess I could stop doing that.  I like it because they can eat it for quite awhile between feedings. 

TDS 81 tonight

GH = 3 KH = 4

pH... Who knows.  Low range left, high range right. 7.4...maybe?  Coop strips look lower like 7 or so. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

Here's one of the other pairs.  I'd call her... reluctant.  He is being pretty gentle in his persuit though.  I don't think I've seen her in a cave yet.  The other pair seems to be maybe getting a bit closer to spawning, the female is yellowish during a few periods during the day, which seems to be like what the female that has spawned was doing a few days before she laid.  And have seen them in the caves a bit more.  

She's just genuinely not interested yet.  But he sure throws a lot of water at her during the day.  😄  And he was doing some very hard bends for her last night.  Pulling out all the stops.  She was... content in her crypt. haha

[jwcarlson]

These two appear to be at it again... evidenced by the fish-seeking missile that flew across the tank at her mate when I walked down to the fish room this morning.  This is about two weeks from the last spawn.  Maybe closer to 11 or 12 days since she kicked the eggs out or ate the wigglers or whatever she did last time.  I've been wondering if they were going to get after it again.  I watched them a TON yesterday and I'm not decerning much of a difference in behavior leading up to her suddenly being ready to go.  Last night I did cold water changes with RO.  Dropped temp from 77 down to 72-73 for all pairs.  And then fed them after refilling.  This was the scene this morning.  I'm really wondering if her switching into breeding mode isn't turning him off somehow?  He looks totally defeated and really avoids her.  She was wafting water at him a bit and rolling over her belly some this AM.  But mostly she just darts out and goes hard after him driving him... somewhere.  I'm QUITE obviously not an experienced apisto breeder and am probably missing a lot of the behavior.  I will say that the last couple days he has seemed less flirtatious with her, but I don't really see any displaying by her at all.  Don't see her spending any times in caves or cleaning anything out, she's mostly out and about when I'm watching.  I even rearranged some of them a few days ago because of that fact.  She's been her normal, light color up until this morning when she's bright yellow.  When she was close to him he was doing a full body fin twitch deal.  Something I've seen the males and females do since I've had them.  I'm starting to see it as a white flag/I mean you no harm gesture.  I'm basically trying to figure out if they could have spawned and he did his thing in the roughly 40 minutes of time between lights on and when I got downstairs this morning.  Or, perhaps, they'll spawn in the dark.  Though it's QUITE dark down there before the lights come on.  

She's not in one of the artificial caves this time, but in one of the more natural ones created by the driftwood.  She's actually wedged in behind the spray of hornwort.  She's so fast it took me three of her trips out/in to even figure out where she was going.  Crazy little thing.  

The other two pairs don't seem particularly close to spawning.  Which is fine, I'm not in a rush.  I've only had them 40 days.  I'm not sure how long it can take for non-pairs to eventually figure out that their tankmate is all they've got, though.  Knowing someone produced at least one wiggler in my water would go a long way towards boosting my confidence.  😄

[Guppysnail]

What a lovely read. Thank you for this. One of my next winters projects I’m considering apisto. The hongsloi was not on my list of possibles but I believe it just moved to the top of the list. Thank you again for this journal and I can’t wait to see your fry 🤞🏻

Edited February 20, 2023 by Guppysnail

[jwcarlson]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:45 AM, Guppysnail said:

What a lovely read. Thank you for this. One of my next winters projects I’m considering apisto. The hongsloi was not on my list of possibles but I believe it just moved to the top of the list. Thank you again for this journal and I can’t wait to see your fry 🤞🏻

I have had an absolute blast with them so far.  I could see getting frustrated if they never make fry or whatever, but they've been worth the price of admission so far. 🙂

Interesting dynamics and really fun to watch.  I do wish they'd coordinate their actual spawning to MY schedule at least once so I would at least know that the male was in the vacinity of the eggs prior to her turning into the savage pinning him to the opposite half of the tank!

[jwcarlson]

So... Interesting shift in behavior which makes me wonder if I caught them right after he fertilized the eggs this morning and they were in an in between state of "come here" and "get away".  This afternoon I got home and went to check on them.  Male is on his side just chilling out.  Female not out and not out and not out.  Went to get BBS separated, still nothing.  Waiting through that, still no mate-seeking missile.  Fed the BBS... Still no yellow streak.  Weird.  Finally she crept out and sampled some BBS.  Then back in.  Later she came out to move the male, but she only went halfway.  He turned his back and started doing the fin flicking that I have come to associate with submission.  She turned right around and left him be.  She had, at some point, nipped the bottom of his flowing anal fin.  Which could have been damaged this morning.  It's nothing major. 

It will be interesting to see if this has been a one off or what.  The location she picked faces the side of the tank and so she can only see like 1/4 of the tank.  So he isn't nearly as observable as he has been in previous spawns.